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[maxxsid]

Hello,
Please help... I am about to go insane over this (buy ipod).
This is not ipod - Rio Karma.

I just transferred about 3000 files on it.
- Created a playlist
- sync Karma to that playlist
- most of the files are mp3 (some at 320kbps), some ape, flac, wma lossless.
- most of the files ripped by me. some are downloaded
- MC12 set to downconvert high bitrate/unsupported files to mp3 (lame -V 4 --vbr-new)
- it was slow but most of the files got transferred

However, about 150 files just won't go...
- all of them were downconverted either from high bitrate mp3 or from non mp3 formats
- I cannot figure out the pattern
--- 10,000 Maniacs "Our Time in Eden" - all tracks. I would suspect the comma, but there were other bands with commas. From mp3 320kbps.
--- All Led Zeppelin (1, 2, 3 and 4) I had in the playlist. From wma lossless.
--- Several tracks (about half) from three Cure albums. Lossless ape.

These problem tracks not just "not go". They do, but the Karma says they are "bad" and removes them from the database.
If I transfer same tracks (from MC handheld cache) with WMP or Rio Media Manager they go just fine (not "bad").

Any idea anyone?
Please save my Karma!
Thanks!

--max

[maxxsid]

BUMP! (and more info)
---------------------
Please help me! I don't want to part with my Karma. Don't want to get an ipod (bought it actually.. and don't like it. 80Gb is a nice piece of storage though..)

Anyway, about 10% of my files refuse to go on my Karma, when transferred/synced with MC12. When transferred with Rio Media Manager or WMP - they go just fine and play fine.
With MC12, they go but Karma marks them as "bad" and removes from the database. This happens with the original files (high bitrate) and with downconverted too.

I am almost 100% sure now that this has to do with the tags.

-- one problem album had cover art embedded in tags - removed the art and suddenly this album started to behave.
-- the others are weirder - for some albums only half doesn't work but the rest works - this means that the tags should be ok - they all have (or not have) same cover art and other common tags...

This is very bizarre.. Please help! I am out of ideas..

TIA!

[JimH]

Maybe there's a limit on the size of the cover art.  Or the file type isn't supported.  Check some of the files that work.

[maxxsid]

Jim,
Thanks for replying!
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on.
In the end it boiled down to the cover arts in the tags and somethig else..
What's this "something else", I don't know. Perhaps someone has more brainpower than me..
Here's the puzzle --
----
List of unlucky files (complete tags http://www.brokenfile.com/RioKarma.html)
Z:\mp3\10,000 Maniacs\10,000 Maniacs - 1992 - Our Time In Eden\06 - Gold Rush Brides.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 2004 - The Cure\01 - Lost.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 2004 - The Cure\02 - Labyrinth.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 2004 - The Cure\05 - Anniversary.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 2004 - The Cure\10 - Never.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 1989 - Disintegration\01 - Plainsong.mp3
Z:\MP3\The Cure\The Cure - 1989 - Disintegration\07 - Fascination Street.mp3
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\01 - Good Times Bad Times.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\02 - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\03 - You Shook Me.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\04 - Dazed And Confused.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\05 - Your Time Is Gonna Come.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\06 - Black Mountain Side.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\07 - Communication Breakdown.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\08 - I Can't Quit You Baby.wma
Z:\MP3\Led Zeppelin\Led Zeppelin - 1969 - Led Zeppelin I\09 - How Many More Times.wma
(and all other LZ albums encoded the same day in the same way a couple of years ago)

-- The wma files I don't understand at all - they don't have any images inside. Probably, bad encode (with MC11.1), but why they don't go after recode to mp3? There should be something else in the tags.
-- The rest is also interesting. I had a much longer list of bad files. Removed the cover art from the tags - some of the albums started to behave and went on Karma. However, a few titles still refuse to cooperate. Like that one single track from Our Time In Eden - what makes it so special? (before I removed the cover art, the whole album wouldn't go. now it's just this one track)

And again, all goes perfectly well if I transfer these files with other applications..
Obviously, something is not right on MC's side..

Any thoughts? I'll appreciate any little idea.
TIA!

Maybe there's a limit on the size of the cover art.  Or the file type isn't supported.  Check some of the files that work.

[maxxsid]

Jim and others,
It's most certainly the cover art in the tags.
Strange things:
-- some files with covers in tags are fine with Karma, some (sometimes from the same album i.e. size and quality of the cover art are the same) are not.
-- when MC builds the handheld cache it _always_ puts the cover in the tags!
Am I imagining things?
Is it possible to make MC not to put the covers in the tags? (my covers are stored in a separate folder and I have the option "Also store in the tags" unchecked)
Is it possible to make MC remove the covers before transferring to a non-coverart-supportive handheld?
Is there a way to mass remove the covers? I know - save to internet, remove, get from internet - but it's lengthy and risky. Can I just empty that tag in MC?

Thanks!

[SwellGuy]

So when you transfer with other apps, does it look like they are stripping off the id3.2 tags?

[maxxsid]

Rick,
Thanks for replying..
I am not sure what's going on...
RMM (rio media manager) does not strip the tags but I think it does change them somehow.
What really bugs me that some of very similar files go just fine and some don't.
For example I ripped my Led Zeppelin and Queen CD's to lossless WMA on the same day and with the same software (MC11). All Queen stuff goes OK (with covers in the tags) while Led Zeppelin doesn't.

Another strangest thing is that one track by 10,000 Maniacs. Initially the whole album wouldn't cooperate. All tracks except for that one went OK after I removed the cover art from the tags.
Now this one problem track sits in the handheld cache - I go in with a 3rd party application (Tag&Rename) and remove the cover - after I sync, the cover mysteriously returns to the tag (MC doesn't reconvert, just uploads to Karma) - it's almost like theres another cache somewhere where the wrong stuff is stored and gets reused..

I will do some more testing later today.

So when you transfer with other apps, does it look like they are stripping off the id3.2 tags?

[Matt]

Even if the file is cached, we resave the tag (with image) before upload to make sure it's up-to-date.

[maxxsid]

I see... Getting closer..
How can I upload the files _without_ the covers?
MC seems to put the covers in the cached files even if they are not in the original files.

This being said/asked..
--- why only these few files won't cooperate? Large images? Yes, over 300K for Maniacs but just over 100K for LZ. There are many well-behaved files with covers larger than 100K.
--- I don't remember how, but somehow I managed to transfer some problem files _without_ the covers (maybe with a week older version of MC)
--- now, if I remove the covers before uploading, they get added back..
--- if I transfer those problem files to Karma, and then transfer them back (from Karma to PC) - those files play just fine. If I try to play them in Karma they all get discarded - maybe there's really a limit (in Karma) on id3 tag size or something..

no.. I just checked, there are files with larger covers and id3 tags

Please advise! Appreciate your help!
I really want to keep my Karma - ordered an iPod and sending it back to Amazon (Karma is so much better for music).
FYI - the iPod swallowed all files without a problem.
 

Even if the file is cached, we resave the tag (with image) before upload to make sure it's up-to-date.

[maxxsid]

I found that all those problem files not just had cover art in the tags...
-- the cover art was put there by MC upon uploading
-- the original covers were taken from a separate folder where I keep most of my covers
-- the problem cover art files had some EXIF info embedded - this seems to screw my Karma

This info causes problem:
File
   Comment               
Camera
   Make                 
   Model                 
   Orientation           Upper Left
   X resolution          150/1
   Y resolution          150/1
   Resolution unit       inches
   Software              Adobe Photoshop CS Windows
   Date/time             1/23/2005 9:06:57 PM
Image
   Image description     
   Artist               
   Copyright             
   Date/time original   
   Date/time digitized   
   User comment         
   Colorspace            sRGB
   Pixel X dimension     817
   Pixel Y dimension     732

This doesn't:
File
   Comment               
Camera
   Make                 
   Model                 
   Orientation           Upper Left
   X resolution          75/1
   Y resolution          75/1
   Resolution unit       inches
   Software              ACD Systems Digital Imaging
   Date/time             2/28/2007 12:45:47 AM
   YCbCr positioning     centered
Image
   Image description     
   Artist               
   Copyright             
   Date/time original   
   Date/time digitized   
   User comment         
   Subsec time           921
   Pixel X dimension     348
   Pixel Y dimension     348
Miscellaneous
   Exif version          2.2
-----------------------------

So, please..
-- would it be possible to have an option not to put cover art into tags for handheld sync?

Thanks!