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[jmone]

Probably a Q for AlexB (I've read his FAQ) but I'm just not sure about ASIO....I've got a Vista based HTPC (Shuttle SG33G5) using the Realtek ALC888DD 7.1 channel High Definition Audio Chipset connected via HDMI to a Yami V2700 amp to a 5.1 Axiom Speaker Setup.  I play a range of media from 2-Ch PCM & MPEG Audio to 5.1 DTS / DD.  All sounds good so far but what will ASIO give me (and can I use it?).

Thanks
Nathan

PS I'm from Oz where ASIO stands for Australian Security Intelligence Organisation ....

[ThoBar]

PS I'm from Oz where ASIO stands for Australian Security Intelligence Organisation ....

... our version of the CIA/FBI rolled into one (I believe), in case you were wondering ... (probably the NSA and a bunch of other initialled agencies too for that matter)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_stream_input_output  .. explains it rather (too?) succinctly.

I gather the low latency is the main advantage, although some claim it also provides a purer sound. Your setup most likely can handle ASIO (using ASIO4All if nothing else), although I cant say I know anything about HDMI, so I don't know if that will be effected or not. In my testing on (good hardware/bad hifi) and (bad hardware/good hifi) I've noticed no obvious difference... that may differ with a good/good scenario.

I'm sure other with more knowledge than I will chip in shortly...

[EDIT] Just roaming the forums, and found a good reason to use ASIO apparently ... http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=41962.msg286335#msg286335
C.

[jgreen]

It's a little-known fact that most of the A/V codecs were developed by spy agencies.  You don't think they left a back door in so they could snoop on us?

As for ASIO, there's another drawback apart from the privacy concerns:  It is a CPU hog.  Possibly the extra processor activity is due to the workload of observing and cataloging citizen's listening habits, I don't know.  But on marginally equiped and/or highly burdened systems, ASIO can perform poorly (YRMV).  I should note I've gotten better results moving from ASIO4all to Creative's proprietary ASIO driver for my 404 USB.  Maybe it works better because it bypasses ASIO entirely and goes back through the Kmixer.

As for a discernable audio difference, I struggle to find one.  I know others swear by the quality difference, but I think DAC quality is far more important, and speaker quality swamps them both.  BTW: way, way, way down at the other end of the spectrum is the difference between lossless and high-quality lossy, IMO.   

The post that confishy links talks about the deficiencies of the AC97 codec.  You don't have this, so sweat not.  I'm not even sure whether ASIO supports >2 channel audio--someone who knows what they're talking about will have to settle that one for me.     

[Alex B]

I think everything useful about ASIO has been said in this and the numerous old ASIO threads.

Briefly, my opinion is:

ASIO is useful for music producers (because of the lower latency) and a necessity for those who want use MC for playing 44.1 kHz DTS audio through SPDIF and use an external DTS decoder.

In addition, it can be useful if you want to prevent system sounds when playing music with MC. When an ASIO driver bypasses the Windows Kernel Mixer it also reserves the sound card and the system sounds are blocked during ASIO playback (AFAIK).

With some sound cards ASIO may be a way to bypass bad quality resampling, but if the sound card can handle 44.1 kHz properly resampling should happen only if various sample rates are outputted through the Kernel Mixer simultaneously. In that case the Kernel Mixer usually resamples everything to 48 kHz.

If the sound card does not natively support 44.1 kHz ASIO does not help. It is better to use MC's DSP with the 48 kHz setting.

In general ASIO has not been proven to audibly improve audio quality when compared with DirectSound or Wave Out.

This was for XP. I have no experience of Vista's audio capabilities.

I'm not even sure whether ASIO supports >2 channel audio--someone who knows what they're talking about will have to settle that one for me. 

ASIO supports 4.0 and 5.1 when played through my Terratec DMX 6 fire 24/96 sound card. I have not tried it with anything else.

[Mike Noe]

IMO, the ASIO perf is most probably related to the particular vendor's implementation.  On my current setup, using an AMD X2 3600 O/C'd to 2.4Ghz, running the RME Digi96/8 PST, when playing back music with MC12 (High APE), she goes about 1-2% of the CPU.  I run no DSP.

When I had my old Shuttle running it (RME ASIO w/MC12) with an O/C'd Celeron, she was running <7% CPU.

As to discernible audio diff, well, that will depend on the articulation and resolution of your system and the chain that supports it.  I can tell you that on my system, I can hear a diff between ASIO and other output, and that is using three different speaker combos (Von Schweikert, Monitor Audio, Hammer Dynamics) with the same pre-amp and amp setup, using an external DAC or the DAC on the RME.  Even my wife can hear a diff, but in that case, she has a better ear than me anyway.

ASIO supports > 2 channels.

[Alex B]

IMO, the ASIO perf is most probably related to the particular vendor's implementation.  On my current setup, using an AMD X2 3600 O/C'd to 2.4Ghz, running the RME Digi96/8 PST, when playing back music with MC12 (High APE), she goes about 1-2% of the CPU.  I run no DSP.

When I had my old Shuttle running it (RME ASIO w/MC12) with an O/C'd Celeron, she was running <7% CPU.

I forgot to mention that on my 2.8 GHz P4 ASIO does not consume a lot of CPU. The CPU usage is about 1-2 % during plain playback (without DSP or visualizations).

As to discernible audio diff, well, that will depend on the articulation and resolution of your system and the chain that supports it.  I can tell you that on my system, I can hear a diff between ASIO and other output, and that is using three different speaker combos (Von Schweikert, Monitor Audio, Hammer Dynamics) with the same pre-amp and amp setup, using an external DAC or the DAC on the RME.  Even my wife can hear a diff, but in that case, she has a better ear than me anyway.

What kind of difference do you hear?

I have no experience about RME and it's drivers, but I would suspect that audio is resampled at some stage if you can hear a difference. In the worst case it can be resampled from 44.1 to 48 kHz and then back again if the driver is locked to 44.1 kHz. (My Terratec Control Panel switches the sample rate automatically according to the signal and I suppose its sample rate display would show 48 kHz if Kernel Mixer resampled the signal.)

[Mike Noe]

What kind of difference do you hear?

The biggest diff we heard was soundstaging, basically the depth and breadth of the presentation.  This was most apparent with the higher efficiency speaker pairs (Von Schweikert).  To a lesser degree but still present, was a noticeable clarity amongst instruments for certain live recordings (jazz and classical).

I will say, with the cheaper two-way Monitor Audio Silvers, these diffs were much less apparent, but then, the whole experience with the Monitors vs. my other speakers leaves much to be desired.

I don't think the RME driver is locked and the card supports 44.1kHz.

So, are you saying that KMixer, in the case of the RME, would not re-sample, given the ability of the RME to support 44.1kHz?

Perhaps we were hearing something else?  Or nothing at all.   

You've got me pondering our experiments, I might have to go back and try again.   

[horse]

Interesting. . . .

jmone - How do you like your Axioms? I have some M80v2's hooked up to a Dennon 4806CI streaming the music directly using uPnP and using the integrated Burr Brown DAC's directly (Thanks to John Gately for making it work) and in 2ch mode it sounds awsome. I should get the VP150v2 and some QS8's soon, but am struggling with which Sub for 5.1ch mode. Which do you run? How big is the room? Type of music/films? The M80's already provide the low end for music, so it's really just for films I think I might need it.

Looking to rebuild the HTPC for the living room so now I'm concerned about what windows will do if I go via the sound card/OS. I ripped all my CD"s using a Plextor drive to ensure no jitter related issues and an exact copy of the CD (Others did testing and showed file compares of the same track differed, have no clue if this is redundant with MC's secure mode, but I ripped with a Plextor and secure mode and it made me feel good)
More reading to do . . . . . . let the thread continue

[jmone]

Interesting. . . .

jmone - How do you like your Axioms? I have some M80v2's hooked up to a Dennon 4806CI streaming the music directly using uPnP and using the integrated Burr Brown DAC's directly (Thanks to John Gately for making it work) and in 2ch mode it sounds awsome. I should get the VP150v2 and some QS8's soon, but am struggling with which Sub for 5.1ch mode. Which do you run? How big is the room? Type of music/films? The M80's already provide the low end for music, so it's really just for films I think I might need it.

Looking to rebuild the HTPC for the living room so now I'm concerned about what windows will do if I go via the sound card/OS. I ripped all my CD"s using a Plextor drive to ensure no jitter related issues and an exact copy of the CD (Others did testing and showed file compares of the same track differed, have no clue if this is redundant with MC's secure mode, but I ripped with a Plextor and secure mode and it made me feel good)
More reading to do . . . . . . let the thread continue

I like the Axioms very much (but I think I'm the only Aust user - had to bring them in specifically).  I got the Epic 60-500v2 (http://www.axiomaudio.com/epic60_500main.html) as I did not want any potential issues drive the M80's 4ohm with my V2700 (though I'm sure it would be fine, it is just a loooong way from Canada).  My room is a "normal" 4m x 5m but with other rooms etc comming off it.  My system has no problem filling this with as much sound as you want.  I must say I really like the QS8's and the EP500 is terrific.  I listen to a range of rock/pop/tv/video through this system and found I was picking up detail in the music that I had not noticed before (including the bad).  In playing with the Yami's sound feilds MY preference was a pure direct mode (Stero no Sub) if I was sitting in one place as the sound stage was clearly the most detailed and well pronouced.  However it is rare for me to sit and listen, so my usual listening mode is all Chanells going including the SUB...and you certainly feel the music.  This option is also good as I've a mix of Stero PCM, DD2.0, 5.1 and DTS5.1 Audio tracks mixed together in playlists.  FYI I've ripped all my CD's in WMA Lossless and my Music DVD's by tracks.
Thanks
Nathan

[horse]

Thanks Nathan,
Your Yamaha would have had no issues with the M80's, they don't need much to drive them before they are loud. The Dennon doesn't break a sweat and the neighbour can here it clean and clear. I too found that there was detail I hadn't heard before and some tracks just don't sound good musically any more.
I susoect I will find the same regarding not using the sub in standard music mode, the M80's provide more than enough low end. The original house they where in had no issues, the one I'm in at the moment has too many hard surfaces and plays havoc with mid range, especially and string instruments, so have to run the Room EQ to correct. Hopefully that will change soon. You've comfirmed what I hoped, so will order up the rest of the set and start enjoying more than just 2ch content.