Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[glynor]

I have had this issue for a very long time, but for whatever reason chose to ignore it.  However, I was recently on a nice vacation where MC provided a lot of the music and video entertainment for a large group of friends for an entire week.  We ran music, videos, and photo slideshows through MC almost constantly, and a lot of completely new users (along with my wife and I) to MC had the opportunity to play with the product for a bit.

First off, most of them liked MC.  In fact, I got quite a few "Wow!  This is SO much better than iTunes!" comments (to which I happily pointed them towards JRiver).

However... The universal complaint, aired by each and every single user of MC during the trip (many of them separately from one another) was that MC very commonly "freezes" for a short bit when first starting playback of any kind (audio or video mostly).  During this frozen period MC is playing the file back (the video or music starts) but is otherwise completely unresponsive to most commands.  The frozen period seems to vary, but is typically between 15 and 60 seconds, with the occasional "outlying" 2 minute approacher (and the occasional complete absence of the freeze).  I do find that the issue is worse when the media you are playing is on a slower drive (USB external, network, or just a slow laptop drive), but the issue isn't limited exclusively to these cases.  I've seen this issue on a wide variety of my different machines, so I'm pretty sure it isn't "just me".  (And speak up please if it happens to you too!)

What is most frustrating (and the most common complaint) is that when you start playback, sometimes the volume is VERY, VERY LOUD, but the volume control is unresponsive.  Everybody starts yelling "TURN IT DOWN!!" but there is nothing you can do!  More obnoxiously, the typical user response is to pound on the control keys or remote repeatedly and then when MC does "come back to life" utter craziness ensues!  Other issues are that maybe you started the wrong video file, and are forced to watch sometimes almost a minute of the wrong program before you can switch it (hoping and praying it wasn't something inappropriate with children in the room).  There are lots of other times when it is frustrating (trying to skip to a later point in a video or long audio track) though those two issues (volume and stopping incorrect playback) are the most essential.  Even if just the volume control and stop function could remain responsive, I'd be satisfied.

My wife has complained for eons about this issue, but I've always just blown it off, until I saw how frustrating it was to a variety of novice users, and how often something needed to be adjusted immediately after starting playback.  What I'd like to know is:

1) Is there anything I can do to mitigate or eliminate this issue myself?
2) Is there anything JRiver can do to fix this?

PS. The only plugins I have installed are G-Force (the current Platinum build) and Scot's FLAC plugins.  Nothing else, and certainly no Now Playing reporter type stuff.

[JimH]

However... The universal complaint, aired by each and every single user of MC during the trip (many of them separately from one another) was that MC very commonly "freezes" for a short bit when first starting playback of any kind (audio or video mostly).  During this frozen period MC is playing the file back (the video or music starts) but is otherwise completely unresponsive to most commands.  The frozen period seems to vary, but is typically between 15 and 60 seconds, with the occasional "outlying" 2 minute approacher (and the occasional complete absence of the freeze).

Not normal. 

What else is running? 

The description sounds like a network timeout.

[glynor]

If it is a network timeout it is odd.  It happens sometimes even when the system isn't connected to the network at all!

Keep in mind, MC starts playing the file immediately.  Only AFTER playback starts, this freeze appears.  File playback continues normally while MC is frozen, but you can't work any of the controls.

As mentioned, I've seen this identical issue on MANY machines (even our new video wall system which isn't running ANYTHING else and doesn't have G-Force or any plugins installed). 

[rjm]

Definately not normal. I have used MC on at least 8 different computers encompassing internal and external drives, USB 1.0 and 2.0, XP and Vista, fast and slow systems and have never seen this problem. The only delay I see is a small startup delay for some video files (presumably the codec is initializing or something).

What do you use for AV/spyware? I use Avast! and Windows Defender. Are you running any cd drive daemons?

[JimH]

As mentioned, I've seen this identical issue on MANY machines (even our new video wall system which isn't running ANYTHING else and doesn't have G-Force or any plugins installed). 

What do the machines have in common?

[glynor]

I'm really surprised that no one else sees this at all....  I'm going to have to investigate some more.  However, there isn't all that much that all of the machines have in common.  At least it's fairly easy to reproduce!!

[gappie]

i also saw the issue a lot, glynor. but my main machine died a few weeks ago, and im waiting for a new one. in the mean time i just have an old machine running in crises mode, running fine.
i thought i also could reproduce the time lag again. and i cant. which made me wonder.. is it girder (that i dont have on this machine, the media buttons work immediatly). is it the use of the mcc commands? just some thoughts.

[steveklein]

i don't have a significant delay (never anything like a minute, unless i accidentally fire up a 2gb movie while im burning a dvd and encoding video while defragging a hard drive or something dumb like that)

however, i do get a couple seconds delay as the rule. it is annoying, but i just attribute it to the size of my media collection (north of 100k mp3s) and mc is the only program that i've used that can run my collection at all really.

[JimH]

... i do get a couple seconds delay as the rule

Check your virus checker settings.  We've seen ugly problems that were caused by virus checkers looking at every file every time it was opened.

Another possibility is network latency if the drive isn't local.

A third is disk spinup if the drive has spun down.

Check this thread for more ideas.

[glynor]

Check your virus checker settings.  We've seen ugly problems that were caused by virus checkers looking at every file every time it was opened.

Another possibility is network latency if the drive isn't local.

A third is disk spinup if the drive has spun down.

Check this thread for more ideas.

Again, just to be completely clear... The delay I'm referring to IS NOT A DELAY IN THE START OF PLAYBACK.

After playback starts, MC freezes, and I can't control volume or stop playback or anything.  The playback starts instantly, as you would expect.  Wouldn't you expect those types of issues to cause a lag in the START of playback, not something to happen AFTER playback starts?

The problem is mostly with volume control.  Quite often, because different applications have different volume levels, I start playback in MC only to realize that it is cranked to high heaven.  I then can't turn it down or stop playback and everyone is forced to endure ear-splitting volume levels for a few seconds.  It is not limited to only controlling MC through Girder commands (in fact, Girder isn't even installed on my laptop and I often have the issue on it).

It seems sporadic.  I've been trying to reproduce it for the past hour or so and haven't had the issue.  It also didn't crop up last night at all when using MC all evening for music.  Perhaps I am overestimating the time (when your friends are yelling "turn it down" and I can't it makes it feel like an eternity), but it is certainly not just 1-3 seconds (in some cases).

However, it happened a number of times over the weekend, and LOTS while we were down south.

PS. Sorry about the caps if everyone got it before!

[glynor]

Is it possible that Podcast auto-downloading in the background could affect UI responsiveness?

One difference right now (and last night) is that all my podcasts are done downloading, because I had left MC open for a long while at idle.

[rjm]

I've seen podcast activity delay responsiveness during MC application startup, but not during normal use.

Another idea, any chance your system was building thumbnails for videos in the background? Depending on the video type, I have seen definate unresponsiveness during this operation.

[ThoBar]

I just set up some Podcast for auto-d/l, and cannot reproduce this at all. How many do you think you could be d/ling simultaneously?

FWIW, My media, library and podcast store are all networked, and it still runs fine.

To me, it almost sounds like a plugin issue, in that if it begins to play immediately (and continues smoothly), then I agree, latency (for what ever reason) does sound likely an unlikely culprit. On the other hand, if playback begins, and MC begins trying to pass data to a plugin (or however it works   ) and at that point, for whatever reason the plugin becomes non-responsive.... ? Just a thought.

Just to be clear, when it happens, it happens every time you switch tracks? Or only on first playback?

Have you tried an empty library with the same result? (I assume you have, but you dont mention it specifically)

[ThoBar]

Another idea, any chance your system was building thumbnails for videos in the background? Depending on the video type, I have seen definate unresponsiveness during this operation.

Good point. Same here.

[StFeder]

After playback starts, MC freezes, and I can't control volume or stop playback or anything.  The playback starts instantly, as you would expect.

I have the same, but for me it is an absolute maximum of 5 seconds. Normally it's just round about 1 sec. But turning off the virus checker solved it for me. Well I turned it back again because I can live with up to 5 seconds, but it was exactly the same as you described: Playback starts instantly, MC freezes.

[glynor]

To me, it almost sounds like a plugin issue, in that if it begins to play immediately (and continues smoothly), then I agree, latency (for what ever reason) does sound likely an unlikely culprit. On the other hand, if playback begins, and MC begins trying to pass data to a plugin (or however it works  ) and at that point, for whatever reason the plugin becomes non-responsive.... ? Just a thought.

Just to be clear, when it happens, it happens every time you switch tracks? Or only on first playback?

Have you tried an empty library with the same result? (I assume you have, but you dont mention it specifically)

I've considered plugin issues, but there really isn't much that is installed.  As mentioned, about all I have installed is G-Force, and the issue happens both with Audio (where G-Force would be used) and with Video (where it wouldn't).

And, no, it is only on the first playback.  Switching tracks works normally.  And it is certainly not 100% reproducible, but common enough that it is extremely frustrating.  It seems to happen on my laptop more often than my HTPC, but that could be just my imagination.

I have not tried an empty library... Frankly, even if that is the "solution" it's not an acceptable solution, so...

I've wondered about thumbnailing.  However, it doesn't seem to be tied to when MC is actively thumbnailing (video anyway -- based on the appearance of FFDSHOW in the task tray), though it's hard to be sure.  If it is, then that really needs to be fixed, because it makes MC look "bad".  Either the Thumbnailing needs to be further "pushed to the background" or the on-the-fly thumbnailing needs to be able to be disabled.  Perhaps it is a combination of the on-the-fly thumbnailing and anti-virus activity.  However, I'm not willing to completely disable my anti-virus app for the obvious reasons.  I don't have a "crappy home-user"  anti-virus app though... I spent a good amount of money for Symantec Anti-Virus Corporate (v. 10) which is quite stable and not a resource hog.

I am willing to disable my Anti-Virus from looking at my library files, thumbnails, etc, if that might help.  I'll give it a shot and report back...

Oh, and...

I have the same, but for me it is an absolute maximum of 5 seconds. Normally it's just round about 1 sec. But turning off the virus checker solved it for me. Well I turned it back again because I can live with up to 5 seconds, but it was exactly the same as you described: Playback starts instantly, MC freezes.

I actually timed one on my laptop last night with my watch and it was 38 seconds.  Most are, as you described, 5 seconds or less, but occasionally I get absurdly long ones...

[JimH]

What is common to all the affected PC's?  G-Force or the virus checker program?

Disabling a virus checker may not be enough.  We've seen problems that were not solved without an uninstall/reboot.  But it is more likely the setting for the program that tells it to check every file every time it's opened.

It would be interesting to watch Task Manager to see what happens to memory and CPU during this time.

[glynor]

I'm working on it...

Both the Anti-Virus and G-Force are common on the machines where I've been able to test.  The AV app is slightly different, as the SAV on my work machine is the work-configured version and at home it is my copy (though they are both Symantec AV 10 Corp).  As I said before, I think our video wall had the issue too and it has neither.  However, since it is in production use, I can't mess with it until after hours or on the weekend.

Unfortunately, on my laptop I can't disable Auto-Protect or modify the Auto-Protect directory exclusions, since it is a work-owned machine and they have some security policies in place.  I've emailed our IT dept to see what they say, but I'm still waiting on a response (they trust me pretty well though so if it can be done they'll let me).

It's so random when it happens though that it can be annoying to try to test.  Today I've gotten it to do it 3 times, but then I can't reproduce it...  I'm actually wondering if it has more to do with hard drive "parking" than anything else.  It seems like the first time I play something, after the machine sits idle for a while, it does it.  Then subsequent plays it works fine.  That's what makes it annoying to test, because you can't easily reproduce it.

If the drive is spinning up, why would the music or video start playing (and play well without skipping or anything else) but the application UI freeze?

[JimH]

If the drive is spinning up, why would the music or video start playing (and play well without skipping or anything else) but the application UI freeze?

Could be because the file being played is in memory already.

This delay also sounds like what the Microsoft OS will do when you put a CD in the drive.  Even Explorer will freeze until the drive spins up.

[rjm]

Could be because the file being played is in memory already.

This delay also sounds like what the Microsoft OS will do when you put a CD in the drive.  Even Explorer will freeze until the drive spins up.

Good point about cd drive. I asked earlier if a deamon like Alcohol 120% was installed. I've seen all kinds of wierd problems caused by these deamons.

[glynor]

Good point about cd drive. I asked earlier if a deamon like Alcohol 120% was installed. I've seen all kinds of wierd problems caused by these deamons.

Daemon Tools 4 is installed on the laptop.  Uninstalling it and rebooting had no effect.

Could be because the file being played is in memory already.

This delay also sounds like what the Microsoft OS will do when you put a CD in the drive.  Even Explorer will freeze until the drive spins up.

How would the file be in memory before I play it??  Does MC now have some thought-reading-predictive-loading algorithm?  If so... Cool!! 

I would say that, most often, I find that it happens with files (audio or video) that I've never played before.  It seems to me almost like it is a delay when MC tries to write some tag to the file, which doesn't get triggered until the file is played for the first time.  I really have no idea though...

[JimH]

Or it's trying to read a drive that isn't available.

I'm going to stop guessing now.  You'll figure it out.  Or pin the blame squarely on us.

[ThoBar]

I'm actually wondering if it has more to do with hard drive "parking" than anything else.  It seems like the first time I play something, after the machine sits idle for a while, it does it.  Then subsequent plays it works fine.  That's what makes it annoying to test, because you can't easily reproduce it.

I 've seen explorer hang after navigating down a directory from the root, or otherwise current directory, because of HDs being parked (either windows or HD caching is in effect here I think), so check your power settings... although I do feel this is a highly improbable cause of your problems, given you may already be playing from that same drive... if you're not on the other hand...

Are there any utilities available for your system/drive that can force it into a parked state? .. otherwise try modifying your power settings to turn off hard disks after a minute...

I suggested the blank library not so much as a solution, but as a purely diagnostic process.... If we eliminate all possible causes, whatever's left, no matter how improbable...
Further to that, have you disabled G-Force and been able to reproduce the prob? (I know it shouldn't matter, buuuut....)

I would say that, most often, I find that it happens with files (audio or video) that I've never played before.

Are these files already thumbnailed?

[glynor]

I managed (after pleading with IT) to modify my AV settings to Auto-Protect only on file Modification (Create/Modify) rather than Access (Create/Modify/Open/Move/Copy/Run)... So we'll see how that works.  I'm also having them exclude my library location and the entire C:\Documents and Settings\<username>\Application Data\JRiver\ folder... They have to push the policy though, so I don't know when that'll take effect.  We'll see.

I also set Windows to park the drives after 3 minutes (the minimum) and I'm now waiting.

Next I'll try removing G-Force.  The problem is that it's not consistent to reproduce, so if I remove G-Force and it doesn't happen is it because it was G-Force or because of dumb luck!  That's why I'm hoping that it's the drive parking thing.  At least I can reproduce that if it is...

I should mention as well that WiMP, MPC, and ZoomPlayer don't exhibit this issue at all, even with G-Force in WiMP (why can't we have G-Force for MPC and ZoomPlayer, BTW)...

I've seen Windows Explorer freeze too (while a drive spins up or a network drive connects).  However, that shouldn't be the issue since the file is actually playing when it is frozen.

[ThoBar]

Forgot to ask, these files that you've not played before, are they already ini your library? ie. is MC playing them, then trying to add them to the library, which then for some reason freaks...

[JimH]

One more thought.  Are any of your podcasts unavailable?  Site gone, for example.

If you suspect podcasts, turn them off completely.  In MC's options/something something/advanced/features.

[glynor]

One more thought.  Are any of your podcasts unavailable?  Site gone, for example.

If you suspect podcasts, turn them off completely.  In MC's options/something something/advanced/features.

I'll try.

That was part of the reason I asked about Podcasts... I have 42 different podcasts right now (not all of those auto-download).  I would assume that the Podcast stuff would all be segregated off onto it's own thread, and shouldn't ever affect the responsiveness of the UI.  However, if Matt says "it might, try turning it off" then I'd be willing to check.

It's certainly possible (likely even) that one of those 42 is MIA.

[JimH]

The podcasts are in separate thread, but if the web site isn't available, there could be a delay from Windows.  Even if you aren't auto downloading, MC is getting the feeds to update what's available.