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[Dave T]

Forgive me father, but it's been a long time since I've been on this board.

I just got the announcement about the new release, and am starting to get a little excited about the Amazon integration.  I've always been a snob about using music download services because of the low bit rate, and always buy entire CD's and encode them using the highest quality VBR setting.  However, although I have a very nice audio system, I'm not an audiophile by any means, and often think I'm being silly by boycotting the convenience of the music download services like ITunes.

Now that Amazon has 256kVBR files, and is also integrated with my music player, I'm thinking I should join the crowd and start downloading songs.

What do people think - what's the prevailing wisdom around here, among people like me that prefer lossless or high quality VBR?  Is Amazon good enough?  Will there be any kind of noticable difference without doing an A/B comparison on a very good audio system?

- Dave

[glynor]

I've been quite pleased with the quality of the Amazon MP3s.  They are NOT CBR 256kbps though, as some of the materials on their site seem to indicate.  That's actually good though, because they are VBR at approximately 256kbps (and I prefer VBR generally).  Not sure (of course) what LAME setting they're using (if they're using LAME at all), but all of them I've bought thus far have been in the range of 215-270kbps, which leads me to believe they're probably using similar VBR settings to what I'd use myself.

I have never, and would never, spend any money on a broken DRM-encrypted music file (so I won't use iTunes or other similar "stores").  I have no faith at all that 15 years from now the DRM won't be unsupported on future music players or software or whatever, and I certainly still have CDs I bought 15 years ago!  Also, I'm fundamentally against the system which robs me of my fair use rights, and forces me to break the law in order to use the media in the ways I want.

That's the same reason that I don't buy DVDs, BTW... Even though the encryption is trivial to break, it's absurd that I have to.  But, then, I'm a "true believer".

[glynor]

I should say... I do really, really wish the MC12 integration was a little slicker.  As is, I can't really use it for most purchases.  If you install the Amazon Downloader, which is required to be able to purchase "full albums" from Amazon's MP3 store, it works through MC but only for full albums.  As soon as you install the downloader, single-track purchases no longer work (and badly -- it charges you but you don't get the music)!

If you don't install the downloader, it works great, but you can't get the reduced price for full-album purchases.  Since I tend to like artists that have good full albums (not a big "top 40" fan, if you know what I mean)... That's not so good.  However, I do still want to be able to buy an occasional single track!

This actually reminds me... JRiver, any progress on this front?!?

[JimH]

Please let Amazon know what you want from MC integration.  We're talking with them, but it's slow going.

I just tested an MP3 single from Amazon and it uses their downloader.  Works fine.  I've asked JohnT to reply.

[JohnT]

Has it been a while since you tried it? A bug was fixed that would cause it to download an empty file.

[Robo983]

Awesome! I just got the email today about this feature and decided to try. I do not know when it became available but now I can truely leave Itunes...wonder if you can get gift cards to Amazon music. Gift cards is the only reason I still use Itunes music. I had just recommended MC to a coworker but warned him that I didn't much like the selections of online stores but this now nixes that.

I just downloaded my first album. Very easy and I had heard that Amazon was going DRM free. At least the one I just did was DRM free. I was concerned that after the download it opened WMP and that the DRM would be registered to that player and I would have to figure out how to get it to work with MC.

How should recommendations be made to Amazon so that they get to the correct people working with MC? Based on my first experience this is what I would like to see.

- Amazon Download tool have a selection for adding to MC library.
- Use MC setting for naming the file
- Use MC save to folder settings so that it is automatic.

[glynor]

Has it been a while since you tried it? A bug was fixed that would cause it to download an empty file.

It has.  I'll try it again!

[glynor]

How should recommendations be made to Amazon so that they get to the correct people working with MC? Based on my first experience this is what I would like to see.

- Amazon Download tool have a selection for adding to MC library.
- Use MC setting for naming the file
- Use MC save to folder settings so that it is automatic.

I posted a lot of similar comments before.  The Amazon MP3 store IS completely DRM free (the MP3 file format does not support DRM), which is the only reason I'll consider using it.  You can change settings in the Amazon Downloader to set the download location and tell it not to auto-open WiMP, but you have to do this all manually.  It'd be nice if MC handled setting those options somehow (and even better if the downloader would auto-open MC instead).

Unfortunately, you can't yet use Amazon Gift Cards to buy MP3 or Unbox (their movie store) downloads.  From their site:

Why can't I use my Amazon.com gift card to buy MP3s or video downloads?

We're sorry that Amazon gift cards can't currently be used to buy Amazon MP3 and Unbox downloads. We're working to make this possible soon.

Also...

Please let Amazon know what you want from MC integration.  We're talking with them, but it's slow going.

I'd love to.  Do you have a contact, or should I just email regular customer service?  I'm sure if I just email "to whom it concerns" it will just go to some customer service pion and not really make any impact.

I really do like the service, and I'd love to see better integration with MC for sure!

[hit_ny]

Not sure (of course) what LAME header info they're using (if they're using LAME at all), but all of them I've bought thus far have been in the range of 215-270kbps, which leads me to believe they're probably using similar VBR settings to what I'd use myself.

Use lametag to see the lame settings which will display them if indeed lame was used at all. Otherwise you will need encspot.

Recent builds of MC might indicate this in the format column but i don't think its as detailed as lametag.

[hit_ny]

What do people think - what's the prevailing wisdom around here, among people like me that prefer lossless or high quality VBR?  Is Amazon good enough?  Will there be any kind of noticable difference without doing an A/B comparison on a very good audio system?

This depends on whether you test with a track you are familiar with or not, if its really hard ie. you got to strain to hear the difference on a known track the thinking goes you won't miss much with material you are not familiar with.

[glynor]

Nice tip on the utilities... Didn't have either of those, but they're both fantastic!!

Here's the LameTag output from one of them I purchased from the store:

Code: [Select]

C:\Documents and Settings\emr>lametag "M:\Incoming\Chatham County Line\Chatham County Line\4 - Wichita Central.mp3"
LameTag - Reads the LAME tag from an mp3 file
Copyright (c) 2005 phwip
Release 0.4.1, compiled 2005-09-09

M:\Incoming\Chatham County Line\Chatham County Line\4 - Wichita Central.mp3
Tag revision:       0
Encoder string:     LAME
Version string:     3.97
Quality:            97 (V0 and q3)
Encoding method:    vbr old / vbr rh
Lowpass:            19,500Hz
RG track peak:      <not stored>
RG track gain:      -5.4dB (determined automatically)
RG album gain:      <not stored>
nspsytune:          yes
nssafejoint:        yes
nogap continued:    no
nogap continuation: no
ATH type:           4
Bitrate:            minimal (-b) bitrate 32
Encoder delay:      576 samples
Padded at end:      1,764 samples
Noise shaping:      1
Stereo mode:        joint
Unwise settings:    no
Source sample freq: 44.1kHz
MP3Gain change:     <none>
Preset:             V0: preset extreme
Surround info:      none
Music length:       8,996,515 bytes
Music CRC:          182E
Actual Music CRC:   182E
Info tag CRC:       4E9A
Actual InfoTag CRC: 4E9A
And here's what EncSpot sees for another one:

Code: [Select]

Bitrates:
----------------------------------------------------
 32                                                     0.1%
 40                                                     0.1%
 48                                                     0.4%
 56                                                     0.2%
 64                                                     0.1%
 80                                                     0.7%
 96                                                     0.6%
112                                                     0.3%
128                                                     0.3%
160     |                                               1.3%
192     ||||||||                                        6.6%
224     |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||            29.3%
256     ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||       33.0%
320     ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||               27.0%
----------------------------------------------------

Type                : mpeg 1 layer III
Bitrate             : 258
Mode                : joint stereo
Frequency           : 44100 Hz
Frames              : 2980
ID3v2 Size          : 48014
First Frame Pos     : 48014
Length              : 00:01:17
Max. Reservoir      : 260
Av. Reservoir       : 89
Emphasis            : none
Scalefac            : 7.8%
Bad Last Frame      : no
Encoder             : Lame 3.97

Lame Header:

Quality                : 97
Version String         : Lame 3.97
Tag Revision           : 0
VBR Method             : vbr-old / vbr-rh
Lowpass Filter         : 19500
Psycho-acoustic Model  : nspsytune
Safe Joint Stereo      : yes
nogap (continued)      : no
nogap (continuation)   : no
ATH Type               : 4
ABR Bitrate            : 32
Noise Shaping          : 1
Stereo Mode            : Joint Stereo
Unwise Settings Used   : no
Input Frequency        : 44.1kHz

--[ EncSpot 2.2 ]--[ http://www.guerillasoft.com ]--
Looks like they are indeed using LAME to encode them!  Old-style VBR Preset Extreme (rather than the new faster method, but that's okay since in some extremely rare, contrived, circumstances the vbr-new could conceivably cause problems).  Either way, that's nice stuff, and other than the vbr-new that's basically exactly what I use!

[hit_ny]

Nice tip on the utilities... Didn't have either of those, but they're both fantastic!!

I'd say the same for a lot of the tips/advice you have shared with us so far, I think i speak for many and thanks to you too Sir

Looks like they are indeed using LAME to encode them!  Old-style VBR Preset Extreme (rather than the new faster method, but that's okay since in some extremely rare, contrived, circumstances the vbr-new could conceivably cause problems).  Either way, that's nice stuff, and other than the vbr-new that's basically exactly what I use!

I'm looking at the readout and i can't believe it

lame 3.97...v0..APE 

Sure..it's overkill, APS would have been fine but this is looking very good.

[glynor]

I'm looking at the readout and i can't believe it

Competition is a wonderful thing!   

[glynor]

I just tested a full Album download with MC 12.0.390 (current beta) and the Amazon Downloader and it went fine.  I tried a single-song download at work earlier with an older build of MC (I think 286) and it worked (I got my song) but it popped up repeated bizarre error messages.  I didn't get the chance to test a single-song download yet on the proper build, but I will and report back.

EDIT:  Looks like either the errors were a fluke or something which was fixed with recent builds.  The process went perfectly with both full album and single-track purchases with the current build.

So... After installing the Amazon Downloader, you simply have a couple of configuration items to do before downloading through MC will work smoothly.  These are easy steps:

1. If you use a browser other than IE, you need to activate the Amazon Downloader in IE.  If you use IE as your default browser, it'll have already done this step for you.  Simply open IE and use it to go to the Amazon MP3 Downloader install page located here.  Then click on the link that says: If you have already installed the Amazon MP3 Downloader, click here to enable it for use with this browser.



2. Open the Amazon Downloader (which runs in the system tray) and go to File --> Preferences.  Choose a download location that will be watched by MC's Auto-Import tool.  By default it dumps them into an Amazon MP3 folder inside your user's My Music folder (not a fan of that placement).

3. In that same dialog, set the When a track finishes downloading option to Do Nothing, or else it'll auto-launch Windows Media Player (eww).

Once you do those three simple things, it works perfectly!

[JimH]

To let Amazon know what you want, please try this e-mail:

amazonmp3-feedback   at   amazon   com

[benn600]

They need FLAC with high quality cover art available.

Just another step towards getting me into the downloadable digital music realm.

[mark_h]

Now that Amazon has 256kVBR files, and is also integrated with my music player, I'm thinking I should join the crowd and start downloading songs.

Depends if you want audible degradation or not   Even with 320kbps CBR I can hear very slight differences on my hi-fi and so I will not waste my money on downloads unless they are lossless.  Buy the CD, rip it lossless and enjoy.  That way you also have the CD as a back up if you lose your files.

IMHO

Mark

[Alex B]

Usually the audible problems at -V0 VBR (or 256/320 CBR) are so small and rare that a direct comparison with the original is needed for hearing any difference. For example, an occasional symbal hit may be slightly different, but it doesn't sound like annoying or wrong.

Personally, I rip in a lossless format and store the lossless files off-line. For my "hi-fi" listening I usually encode a high bitrate lossy version.

The biggest problem with a high-quality lossy format is that it should not be re-encoded to another lossy format. If you need a lower bitrate like 128 kbps you should not start with an already lossy file. You'll get better results from a lossless source.

[Alex B]

BTW, Deutsche Grammophon has started to offer 320 kbps MP3 downloads: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43938.0

[Robo983]

I left the feedback with Amazon hopefully enough of us will to influence them.

On a different topic but thought I would plug it here..is Replay Gain. I noticed in the LAME dump in the above post that the downloaded file comes with track RG in it. MC didn't recognize that it already had it and recalculated it. Is that do again to MC using a different RG format? If so this would give me another reason to plug JR MC maybe giving a choice of which format to use like ID3 tags. I never saw a response from MC if they were considering that for future releases.

[Alex B]

I don't know any program that uses the LAME generated replay gain value. It was addded at some stage of LAME development, but player programs have never adopted it.

In addition, LAME does not save the peak value, which is needed for calculating the maximum unclipped volume level.