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[Matt]

There have been rumblings in the halls of JRiver by our resident photo guru (Tom / DarkPenguin) about adding the ability to stack files together in Media Center. 

One use for this is to nicely manage a RAW image, a developed version in JPEG / TIFF, and any number of edited versions.

It is also nice for managing a lossless audio file and MP3 side-by-side.

Another use is for grouping a burst of related shots into one visibile stack so that you can keep all the variations but not have them filling your views and slideshows.

In use you would only see / play the file on the top of the stack most of the time.  However, there would be a way to change what's on the top of the stack and to see inside any stack.

Some tools like the handheld engine or library server would automatically pick the best version from the stack.

Thoughts?

[rjm]

A very innovative idea but I would be unlikely to use it because I have the solved the problem(s) a different way and do not want to change.

[datdude]

How would the stack look/work?  I'm not quite sure what you guys are thinking, before I can offer up thoughts.

[)p(]

The seamless integration with playback and export of the on top version is most importent in mc itself.

The most tricky part is probably the support of external editors as most of us that will use stacks will want to use our editor of choice. In my case Photoshop or Lightroom. Keeping it simple will work probably best. Make a copy of the current top version. And add it to the edited stack. Send the file the external editor. The tricky part will be if nothing was changed by the editor. On returning you will have two copies of the same version in the stack.

peter

[marko]

it would save me a shedload of maintainence work if MC would take care of this for me. I do it manually atm via a bat file and some creative viewscheme building and field creation.

I would use stacks and version sets all over the place. Currently, I use little icons in the thumbnail text area to indicate whether a file is part of a stack (burst of similar photos) or a version set (an edited copy of the original). It works well, but perhaps MC could do it better.

I like the way the likes of picassa keep edit such as crops, rotates and red eye in the database and apply them when the image is viewed internally. The original is never changed and no new files are created. If you choose to export the photo via a web gallery, email, or locally on the HDD, then any edits are also exported.
It's tidier than having copies all over the place, don't you think?

-marko.

[darichman]

This is an excellent idea.

Marko, I remember reading all about your "creative" ways of doing this, but must confess I got lost and gave up on it long ago.

I would find this very useful, particularly for edits of original raw files.

[dcwebman]

I'm all for having to avoid seeing multiple copies of the same image that was modified different ways.

[glynor]

I'd certainly use this.  I think there should be some indication in Thumbnail view that a particular file has multiple versions.  Perhaps a simple overlay in a corner with the number of related versions.

Honestly, this is one of the three major things that separates MC's capabilities from those of our $100k+ Digital Asset Management system that we have at work (the others are multi-user simultaneous access capabilities, and a "fairly" robust web interface for browsing media).  In effectively every other way, MC beats that stupid system hands down.

Also.... I'd use this for video too (my editing clips) so please don't lock it to only Images.  I imagine some weird people would probably even try to use it for Audio.

[m1abrams]

This feature would make me use MC for photo management.  Currently use another photo management program, however this feature would push MC over the top.

Oh and for other uses as you mentioned are great too, such has different versions of a video (highres for TV, lowres for portable).

[glynor]

It's tidier than having copies all over the place, don't you think?

True, which is why I use Lightroom almost exclusively for Photo Editing anymore (unless there is something complex that I need to do in "real" Photoshop).  However, I'm not really about to abandon those tools for MC's (no offense) wimpy image editing tools, so MC needs to be able to handle multiple versions.

[m1abrams]

True, which is why I use Lightroom almost exclusively for Photo Editing anymore (unless there is something complex that I need to do in "real" Photoshop).  However, I'm not really about to abandon those tools for MC's (no offense) wimpy image editing tools, so MC needs to be able to handle multiple versions.

No do not get me wrong I will not abandon my image editing tools, I like Bibble Pro cause I do light edits but heavy RAW processing.  However for image management and finding images I could abandon my tools for that.

[glynor]

No do not get me wrong I will not abandon my image editing tools, I like Bibble Pro cause I do light edits but heavy RAW processing.  However for image management and finding images I could abandon my tools for that.

Same here.  I was commenting on Marko's point.   

It would be difficult for MC to implement a Lightroom/Picassa style "on-the-fly" edit mechanism and have it be powerful enough that I'd actually use it.  That was my point.  It might be nice for some simple things (crops and whatnot) but if I'm going to get in there and edit color, I'm still going to fire up Lightroom or Photoshop.

[skeeterfood]

I'd love to see something like this.

The perfect thing to go along with it would be more control in the Acquire Images feature.

I currently use cam2pc to grab the images from my Flash Card, rename them, and finally put them in the correct folders as follows:
P:\Digital Cameras\[Year (4 digits)]\[Month (2 digits)]\[Day (2 digits)] - [Prompt for Description]\NEF\[Year (4 digits)]-[Month (2 digits)]-[Day (2 digits)] [[Shutter Count]].nef

For example:
The original file on the flash card:
D:\...\DCIM\_DSC5555.nef
Gets converted to:
P:\Digital Cameras\2007\12\20 - Amazing Photos\NEF\2007-12-20 [5555].nef

MC's expression language would easily allow me to do this, but since Acquire Images doesn't support them, I'd have to import all the files into a single directory, tag the photo shoot descriptions, and then finally run "Rename files from properties" on them to move them to where they really belong.  I'm lazy, so cam2pc wins because it does all that in one step and prompts me for descriptions for each days worth of pictures.  Sometimes I have to go split them up a bit more by hand if there were multiple photo shoots in one day that don't really belong together, but everything else is automatic.

-John

[Matt]

MC's expression language would easily allow me to do this, but since Acquire Images doesn't support them

From 12.0.229:

8. NEW: The Action Window > Camera > Options path supports expressions with Now() in them. (i.e. C:\My Pictures\FormatDate(Now(), year)\FormatDate(Now(), yyyy-MM-dd)\)
   (please note that file-based expression fields likst [Artist], etc. are not available on camera acquire since this information isn't available until AFTER the acquire)

Feel free to start a new thread if you'd like to talk about this more.

[softshellcrab]

In use you would only see / play the file on the top of the stack most of the time.  However, there would be a way to change what's on the top of the stack and to see inside any stack.

Thoughts?

Is it possible to implement the ability to set the top image in a stack in other parts of MC12?

I currently use stacks in an All Media view scheme in the Audio Library. I cannot get the album cover art to stay on top all the time. Sometimes when I open the program it's on top. Other times the thumb for a document type such as TXT or DOC is on top (if there are such files in the folder also). There is no consistency, other than folders with more than 1 type of doc in them tend to show the doc thumbnail more often. It's driving me batty. I currently use Adobe Bridge as my photo browser and you can right click on an image and designate it to stay on top of a stack. However in MC12 it might be easier to have a global setting such as "keep album cover on top of stacks."

Thanks,
Pat

[DarkPenguin]

How do you want to get to the other file versions?  Global stack/unstack?  New view of just the images in the stack in question?

How should things you might like to have "auto stacked" work?  Things like flac/mp3 and cr2/jpg?

How should keywords behave in a stack?

[glynor]

How do you want to get to the other file versions?  Global stack/unstack?  New view of just the images in the stack in question?

I'll have to think about your other questions some more, but for this I'd definitely say BOTH.  Some way to globally "unstack" all files, so that you can browse around (in thumbnail mode OR details mode) with them all stacked or with them all unstacked.  I'd say View --> View Settings --> Show Stacks (or maybe "Stack Related Versions" or some similar terminology) would be a perfect place to stick it.  We'd need a Toolbar button, Automation Command, and it plunked under the Pane Header dropdown as well, of course.

Plus, I'd want a way to select a file and right click --> Show Versions (or Show Stacked Files or something like that).  This command should open a new "view" showing only those files.  So, for example:

If you were in a Images View Scheme, with Year/Month/Day Panes and you had drilled down to show all pictures from September 2007, the "file area" would be showing all of the images from that month.  However, if you right click and choose show versions on one of those pictures, the "file area" should be replaced with a view of just that picture with it's different associated versions.  MC could then hide the panes (like when you browse in the tree) and replace it with a Playlist-header style bar that shows what file stack you are viewing and has some stack-related utility buttons as well (maybe an "Edit Stack" button that opens the Action Window item I mention below).  It should also have some easy way to "go back" to the previous list... Maybe just the regular Back button is all that's needed actually!

You could, of course, gray out that right-click selection if the user has more than one picture selected, or a picture with no stack.

How should things you might like to have "auto stacked" work?  Things like flac/mp3 and cr2/jpg?

There'd definitely need to be some sort of autostacking.  I'd say it could be simple, really.  On import, files with identical file names, in the same path (same folder), with different extensions should auto-stack.  I wouldn't get into allowing or disallowing different kinds of files (by file type) unless really needed.  That way people can do weird stuff like stack subtitle files with the associated videos, artist bio MHT files with their associated songs (or maybe even URL links to IMDB for video files -- that could solve long-standing "get info" issues maybe with some creative thinking).  I don't see any reason to limit what file types people can stack at all.  We'll surely come up with some crazy and useful things not immediately apparent.

As long as you give us a way to: (1) manually "un-stack" auto-stacked files and have it remember that on a per-file basis, and (2) completely disable auto-stacking altogether (perhaps on a per-folder basis in the Auto-Import dialog), we should be cool.

I'd definitely need the ability to manually stack files that might seem otherwise unrelated (even ones on separate disks and paths and stuff).  It'd be really nice if a particular file could be in more than one stack (though this wouldn't be absolutely needed if it'd make the UI weird).  Some ideas for manual stacking:

• If the user drag-drops a file (or files) on-top of an existing file in the library, it should pop-up a Yes/No dialog and say "Stack Files?" or something to that effect.
  
  
• An additional Action Window based method would be good as well.  Perhaps, right-click on a file and choose Open Stack Editor (or something) which pops-up an Action Window Playlist Editor style window that lets you drag-drop files from wherever in MC and adds them to the stack for that originally selected file.
  
  
• It'd also be slick to be able to "stack" all of the files in a "standard" playlist by right-clicking on the Playlist in the tree and choosing "Stack Files".  This'd be nice for audio files that are really all part of a "set" (maybe chapters in an Audiobook that are separate MP3s but you want them to all work as a single "file" in the MC database).  It could either use the first file in the list to be the "parent" of the stack, or maybe pop up a dialog to ask which file to use.

This is actually so darn exciting... I'm sure I'll have more later.

[glynor]

• An additional Action Window based method would be good as well.  Perhaps, right-click on a file and choose Open Stack Editor (or something) which pops-up an Action Window Playlist Editor style window that lets you drag-drop files from wherever in MC and adds them to the stack for that originally selected file.
  

Actually, this would be the easiest way to let the user determine the "primary" item in the stack!

Whatever one is listed first in the Edit Stack Action Window would be the "primary".  Then, if you want to change it, simply right-click --> Stacks --> Edit Stack, this pops up the Stack Editor AW (which, in my mind would look almost identical to the Action Window Playlist Editor), and which would allow you to rearrange the files by simply dragging them around.

[glynor]

Plus, I'd want a way to select a file and right click --> Show Versions (or Show Stacked Files or something like that).  This command should open a new "view" showing only those files.

And a hotkey so that we can just double click.  For example: Alt+Double-Click (or Control or whatever you want) "opens" the stack instead of playing it.

Oh, and I'll want to be able to browse the stacks in Theater View too, so it'll need to be added to the More menu in Theater View.   

I should mention, when I say "open Stack" or "view Stack" I'd say this should be separate from any Action Window Stack Editor.  I'd want to be able to view the files in the stack in the regular "file area" part of MC's UI (in details or thumbnail mode or whatever) and choose individual ones and play them or manipulate them in any of the regular MC ways...

[DarkPenguin]

It should be cute and cuddly and have lots of firepower.  Check. 

Good stuff.  I think my reach will be a little shorter than that to start with but definitely need to keep future in mind.

[JustinChase]

I barely use MC for images currently (I have them imported, but don't really do anything with them, as I haven't found a good/easy method to do anything useful), but think this would make me really dig into MC for this.  As Marko said, having edits saved (basically) as layers, and (optionally) applied on the fly would be great.

Also.... I'd use this for video too (my editing clips) so please don't lock it to only Images.  I imagine some weird people would probably even try to use it for Audio.

However, I see the Audio capabilities as having great potential.  If I could keep my library in ape, but have my handheld created cache (or new method) automatically be "stacked" with the original media, it would allow me make changes on my laptop while on the road, or just disconnected from my external drive.  I always think "Maybe I'll unplug the hard wire and take the laptop in the living room and watch some TV in the background while I do some updating/tagging to my music.  Oh wait, I can't because I have to be tethered to the external drive."

This would allow me to do that, make all my tags/updates to the mp3 version of the files, and have the changes propagated back to the originals when I re-connect.  All the playlists would still work as if I was connected, no trying to manage a "portable" library and a "server" library separately any more.

Plus, I've seen many requests to have a more relational database with Artist bios (for example) entered only once, but shown every time that artist shows up.  This might be a great way to get that functionality (auto-stack artist info to everywhere that artist shows).

I think it would be more useful for images, but the audio potential is quite strong as well I think.

Plus, for those that use MC for documents, you can save edits as stacks, and don't have to save versions as separate files (this would have saved me quite a bit of time a while back).

I hope this can get added to v13; I think it would be great.

[johnnyboy]

+1 for this idea.
Glad to hear its going to be implemented.

When we edit an image it should create a copy [filename]_edited.jpg and add it to the stack automatically.

PLEASE make a seperate 'images' options area and give us options for how stacks are handled as well as everything else about photos.

MC13 will hopefully have alot of work to make MC's photo features come to the surface more

[benn600]

I am not fully versed on this entire thread but did not find iTunes anywhere.  Isn't this the whole selling point for the latest iPhoto in iLife?  Stacks...

[marko]

If this gets implemented (please tell me DP's still rumbling ) I think it's essential that once stacked, any tag changes made to the top image are applied to all images in the stack.

[park]

I've never used a program that utilises stacks, so I'm just wondering how the following would work:

1. If you apply a tag to a stack, it would get applied to each file in the stack right? Well what if you just wanted to make the best image in the stack 4 stars to distinguish it from the others? You would have to go into the stack and edit just that one file?

2. What happens when you play a stack? Does it just play the good image you've selected to represent the stack, or does it play the whole stack?
I currently rate all my images, and have my top image viewscheme just showing me 4 star or greater images. This allows me to see a cleaner/simpler view of my images. However, if the "play" behavior on stacks would just play the good image, then i wouldnt need such a rating system.
If it plays the whole stack however, I'd be making stacks, then going into them and rating individual files, and still keeping my same viewscheme method of separating the wheat from the chaff. Stacks might not make my life any easier.

[p7389]

However, I see the Audio capabilities as having great potential.  If I could keep my library in ape, but have my handheld created cache (or new method) automatically be "stacked" with the original media, it would allow me make changes on my laptop while on the road...

I like.. Furthermore, in the absence of 360 support I could just point windows media share thingy to the folder and it'd automatically share the mp3-versions with the 360... Whilst obviously ignoring the flacs. Would be great.

Not to mention - I don't have dual core or anything so fancy - you wouldn't have to do on-the-fly encoding when transferring to portable device, which would save a sizeable amount of time.

The important thing is that the mp3 and the flac really are tied together in every respect that matters.