Topic: Getting the media to the living room... (Read 9242 times)

Peter_T · « **on:** April 21, 2008, 08:09:21 am »

So I’ve been struggling to figure out just how to get media into my living room in a way that I’m satisfied with and can’t quite get it right; maybe someone here can help me out.

Basically I want to be able to watch downloaded video files and listen to my music collection while sitting on my couch and controlling the whole experience with my remote. Sounds easy, right?

I’m great with computers, enjoy puttering around on them, but in the living room I just want it to work. I spend way too much time serving the machines – the machines are supposed to serve us, right?

I have had a PC (an HP Slimline AMD something, a couple years old) in my AV rack for some time and have tried a few front-ends, the best of which seem to be Microsoft’s MCE (Vista over XP) and MC – but I have a couple of problems. The first are the technical difficulties – PCs are just buggy, I think. Unlike conventional technology (CDs, record players) or a stand-alone device (ipods, etc), they seem to develop problems mysteriously just by existing. The PC in my living room is very bare-bones; I’ve tried a number of configurations but currently I’m running a clean version of XP/MCE with MC, CCCP, and almost nothing else. But STILL the darn thing gives me trouble – crashes now and again, sluggish one in a while, etc. It seems that even XP’s critical updates junk up an XP box.

And I’m just not satisfied by the Windows (XP or Vista) MCE front end or the MC Theater View. Windows’ interface is nice, but it’s hard to manage a large collection – MC manages large collections very well, but the Theater view is just too busy. As others have suggested, I wish there was a ‘kiosk view’ or similar…

And although my PC is pretty quiet, there’s a huge sigh of relief from everyone in the room on the rare occasions when it’s turned off. You might not notice the fans & hard disk, but you sure notice how nice the silence is.

So I’d like to get rid of the PC and switch to a different front-end – I recently tried:

-   a PS3 – nice and quiet, but archaic text-based menus… I installed OpenSuse which might have worked for me but that won’t get me away from servicing the machine…
-   an Xbox 360 – the Extender features were nice, but even with Vista’s MCE it’s hard to find what you want to hear without MC’s amazing smart playlists… and darn those fans are LOUD…
-   a Linksys media extender… similar sorting issues. I still have this one set up (I have 30 days to try it out, thanks Futureshop) and I’m trying to live with the sorting issues. I’m not sure which way it will go.

Is there another solution I’m missing? I’ve considered trying a mac mini; maybe that will be the next step for me? I am willing to sink some cash into this (I realize that the solutions I’ve tried so far are rather low-end, it’s all I could find locally).

What do you guys use?

John Gateley · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2008, 08:39:54 am »

I'd suggest a UPnP device. Philips Streamium, D-Link DSM 520, Buffalo LinkTheater, and quite a few more. They all support different formats of video, so read the specs carefully. Audio doesn't matter as much, since MC can convert it on the fly to MP3...

j

ThoBar · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2008, 01:47:58 am »

Personally, I use MC's Theater View 90% of the time.

The PC I use is just a plain HP business box with XP pro, but it's very quiet and has enough grunt to do almost everything I want -- except games

I ensure that EVERYTHING is disabled windows-wise - no AV, no auto installation of updates, no whizz-bang themes, only the necessary background services, etc...

Without knowing exactly what hardware you've used, I can say that from my own experiences that a thrown-together box just doesnt cut it, HTPC wise. Solid hardware with good driver support is essential ... see Jim's post about the NVidia drivers for Vista as an example.

If you're confident that you're machine meets (in theory at least) these simple criteria, and you're still having problems, then my gut feeling would be to try and get that PS3 going -- I havent tried them, but does the latest firmware improve the interface at all? The main advantage of this (to me) is the elimination of as many devices as possible. I have been toying with the idea of using a PS3 for a while, but probably wont go that route as I will lose the PVR functionality of a PC.

Let us know which way you end up jumping and your satisfaction level, I'm always keen to hear what people use and how they are using it. I will also be 'losing' the HP box soon, and so will either have to build another machine or go the UPnP device route, so if you have anything that you'd highly recommend, I'll look into it more.

Cheers,
C.

NickM · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2008, 08:17:36 pm »

Mac-mini, FrontRow, out of the box it all works. Just add a shortcut ( alias in Mac speak ) to point your music folder to your music storage share, your video folder to your video storage share. That's it.
If you have some weird & wonderful a/v formats, then install Perian 1.1.
Turn off auto updates updates, unplug the keyboard & mouse. Sit back & relax in a non pc-stressful environment.

horse · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2008, 11:33:28 pm »

if your looking for more of an appliance, check out something like this

http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/

There are a couple of others coming out from other suppliers based on the same chipsets.
What I've been waiting for is a simple, clean interface, UPnP client for video, music and pictures (so I can use MC12 as the server and customize the menu's) and the ability to play .iso from a share for my DVD's.

Supports lots of codec's and if you have all your stuff on a server, the box is empty and quiet as no disk required :-)

johnnyboy · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2008, 07:14:07 am »

To be honest, if you want rock solid, reliable, easy and powerful you want to get a Gen1 Xbox and put XBMC on it.
It's rock solid, plays every format, can stream, can play over network shares, can do uPnP, can do everything under the sun pretty much.

Once you try it there really is no other streamer for you!

Peter_T · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2008, 07:00:24 am »

Great ideas… What about getting smart playlists (or static snapshots of them, or some other solution) on to a remote device that doesn’t run MC?

After trying out a media extender from linksys and reading up on some other upnp devices, I think I still want the customization that a computer offers… Still searching, though. The mac mini might be the way to go for me, but running windows and MC. Front row is nice but juggling back & forth from MC to iTunes (for playlist management, at least) would be a pain.

Maybe I could put a pc in the basement and run an HDMI cable for audio/video and a USB cable & hub for remote (and keyboard and mouse when you need them). But then I’m back to dealing with updates, maintenance, etc.

Are those Xbox’s as loud as the current models? I couldn’t believe the fans on those puppies - Like having a little turbine in my living room. Other than that, the Xbox wasn’t bad…

pank2002 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2008, 11:46:19 am »

Unfortunately the xbox is also loud. I do not know whether it is louder than the 360. It is kind of bothersome that they did not fix it. It is a major problem with the Xbox IMO.
-Rasmus

horse · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2008, 02:18:46 pm »

If you use UPnP you still have the Smartlist functionality
I use this on a Denon Receiver with the most basic of UPnP clients ever shipped :-) Smart Lists also work via Tivo as well.
I have a HTPC running MC and this works well but I don't want to keep it up to date etc. I looked at using xbox option but they are cpu challenged for the HD video streams.
What I needed was a UPnP client so I can still use the MC view schemes and smart list from MC server, however I also have my DVD collection as iso's
WIth Popcornhour I should (Have not got one yet) be able to use UPnP for Audio, Video (AVI's, MKV etc) and photos, and then use a shared folder with the iso's for playing DVD's as a virtual DVD drive with all the standard DVD menus and options.

Basically I have a server (noisy and hidden away in the house) with all my media content on it and running MC12 server
Then either the Tivo's (audio and pictures), PC's (MC12), Denon RXCVR (UPnP Audio) and in the future something like the popcornhour (UPnP for audio, video and photos, and ISO DVD)

johnnyboy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2008, 08:58:42 am »

The xbox's aren't that loud and from what I recall as well, they sell after market fans for them that are alot quieter.
It depends alot which revision xbox you get as to how loud or quiet it is.

As well as that, XBMC, when installed onto the XBox has a bunch of settings to control fan speed (and therefore noise).

Mine is set so that as soon as any video or music starts, it instantly stops the fan. It also has built in thermal sensors though so can start them if it starts getting too hot.

Until you try an XBox with XBMC on it, you wont really understand just how powerful and impressive a solution they are. They really are one incredibly powerful combo for a HTPC, only thing lacking being TV Recording / Time Shifting (they might be able to do this - never looked into it enough to know if there's also some hack to do this).

For the price of a second hand XBox I'd say you should at least just consider giving it a try - they're cheap as chips!

Peter_T · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2008, 10:56:36 am »

So will smartlists work with any UPnP device? Does MC perform the “smart” part and then serve static lists or how does that work?

John Gateley · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2008, 12:15:22 pm »

Yes, they work. See:

http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/UPnP_Server#UPnP_and_Random_Smartlists

for more details...

j

mattsnuts · « **Reply #12 on:** July 13, 2008, 02:09:20 am »

Quote from: johnnyboy on April 25, 2008, 07:14:07 am

To be honest, if you want rock solid, reliable, easy and powerful you want to get a Gen1 Xbox and put XBMC on it.
It's rock solid, plays every format, can stream, can play over network shares, can do uPnP, can do everything under the sun pretty much.

Once you try it there really is no other streamer for you!

Do you mean the original Xbox 1 or an Xbox 360? Sorry, I don't know much about Xboxes.

-Matt

Peter_T · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2008, 07:36:27 am »

I just bought one of these:

http://www.divx.com/connected/

... so far it's great for video, I haven't played around with the music options yet. I have a pretty big music collection and I'm a little worried that it will be a pain to navigate through the pile of tunes. Exporting MC's playlists should help, though...

The interface is fairly customizable and is smooth and simple.

I still have 29 days to decide if I like it or not, but so far so good.

benn600 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2008, 11:06:22 am »

I would want it to play DVD VIDEO_TS files and flac. You know, I've built (and gathered) about 5 machines that I just place around the house at TVs so I use JRMedia Center. Yes, it would be awesome if a tiny set top box would replicate this but I just don't see it happening. Why don't they throw every file format on these stupid little boxes?

With HDMI out this is tempting. I've got enough boxes so I'm not hoping to switch anytime soon because then I'll have tons of machines to find a place for. Now they sit nicely next to each TV. Two are amazing looking home theater cases, a few are small but not as nice looking, etc. Nothing spectacular on the performance end but definitely adequate.

Peter_T · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2008, 06:18:36 am »

Yeah, my first impressions were great, but as I use it a bit more I'm more leaning towards good... I don't have a large collection of DVD Video_TS files, only a few that (if I keep this thing) I will burn to DVD and watch in the player that I still have in my rack.

I really just hated having a computer in the living room. More a quirk than a founded thing, I didn't like the keyboard and mouse (wireless and tucked away, but still necessary regularly) and the fans. I wouldn't notice the fans until I would turn the machine off and breathe a sigh of relief.

The other issue is that my desktop that I use to feed media to this is slightly long in the tooth. It streams everything very well, but the menus use OpenGL which my older machine should be able to handle but still ends up being choppy from time to time.

And the box says that you can use this thing over a wireless B connection... yeah right. So-So on G, great on a wired connection.

Maybe popcorn hour will be my next try? I am hesitant to order things since they are harder to return to the vendor if they don't cut it.

benn600 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 25, 2008, 02:27:45 pm »

I solved most of the problems with a living room computer. With the Keyspan remotes I use, I carefully crafted logic into the buttons with the included software. Basically, if MC isn't running, any button would start MC. Which would default to the server library in read-only (and not bug you about that), start in theater mode, etc. The background of the desktop was an image I created that says MC should be running with 4 steps on how to fix the problem: push a button, restart computer & push button (auto logon), ..., contact support.

It really is great.

But we're currently building a theater at home and I'm going to have to investigate some way to decrease fan noise as the fans I used are very loud.

Peter_T · « **Reply #17 on:** October 17, 2008, 05:34:36 am »

I forgot about this thread until the issue came up somewhere else... After trying about 10 different extenders/ streamers/ UPnP devices, I'm back to a PC. But a new one that I stuck in the basement and ran USB & HDMI cables up to the living room. Nothing came close to the customization & interface of a PC... like ben600 I have controls set up just the way I like them, trying my best to mimick a stand-alone device. It's just about perfect.

benn600 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 17, 2008, 11:55:20 am »

Yep, just about! I've got essentially 9 HTPC setups around the house. As soon as they tweak some of the issues I've brought up, BLISS.

I spend more time setting up and configuring the HTPCs than I do watching content.

One other issue I need to bring up is that when I launch MC (any button on my remote will launch MC if it isn't running), if the network wasn't quite ready, MC will launch in DEFAULT library. I then have to get on another computer, remotely login, and fix the problem. They should kick out an error...The library you want can't load. Do you want to quit MC or load the default library? Otherwise, loading the default library cannot be resolved without keyboard/mouse access to the computer. And restarting the computer does nothing because it then becomes the default library.

Robo983 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »

Quote from: johnnyboy on April 30, 2008, 08:58:42 am

Until you try an XBox with XBMC on it, you wont really understand just how powerful and impressive a solution they are. They really are one incredibly powerful combo for a HTPC, only thing lacking being TV Recording / Time Shifting (they might be able to do this - never looked into it enough to know if there's also some hack to do this).

For the price of a second hand XBox I'd say you should at least just consider giving it a try - they're cheap as chips!

For any that find there way here I second johnnyboy. I tried several UPnP boxes and they all played music with all the controls you want but Video was a whole other story. If you have a DVR you want to stream video to a UPnP box even MC can not correct a bad design on the receiver. Pausing, FF, RW, Bookmarking etc of video is evidently all done at the receiver. My nightmare with the DLink 320 was that it could not FF/RW my DVRs MPG format and would lock up. Imagine you are an hour into a movie and push FF accidently and it locks up and you have to restart with no way to FF

. XBMC solves all of that and the next best thing is a quite PC. My problem with the PC is that I have never been able to successfully manage a standby/hibernation scheme so leave it running 24/7. With electricty rates what they have been it bugs me and the XBOX I turn off and on and the Fans can be swapped out and run at lower RPMs w/o risk to the CPU to keep them quiet which is what I did. It is a huge task to set your first one up but after that it is about a two hour process or less.

benn600 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2008, 06:41:55 pm »

I don't know if any of the XBMC solutions can provide high definition output, though. I sold my XBMC when I couldn't get network file access from Vista. I just did a quick calculation and it probably costs around $80 per month to run all our HTPCs 24/7. I suppose I should look into some power solution but I to have never had much luck with a computer sleep attempt. Besides: in the winter they are supposedly just like space heaters. Of course electric heat is more costly than gas but at least that money goes to some level of heat in the house. I know the server @ 250 watts or so generates a decent amount of heat.

chirpp · « **Reply #21 on:** December 12, 2008, 01:17:39 pm »

I am a real rookie here....
First I love the posts of all the cool things people do for Video/Audio etc.
I plan to build my media server and re-convert all media to a lossless format, and control playback with MC. I would love to do the same with the DVD's. Here is where I know nothing. If I put a computer near my television, how do I get output from this PC to the TV? Special card? How do I rip movies to my media server? Via MC and that’s it, similar to ripping a music CD?

My wife has an iTouch and I already am playing with the Intelliremote app to control MC, but that is the extent of my technology.

If there are some basic instructions on what to get, how to rip, I would appreciate it!

benn600 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 12, 2008, 02:41:53 pm »

I have about 8 computers hooked to TVs around the house, which are termed HTPC (home theater pc) devices. They do not really need any special hardware other than a video and audio output that is compatible with your television input. Two of my HTPCs have HDMI output that conveniently plugs into our TVs. The rest of them have DVI out which can be plugged directly into a few TVs and others simply need an inexpensive DVI -> HDMI converter. A few of my TV areas are actually using a standard computer monitor. I just have the computer setup to turn off the monitor after 3 minutes. Then, we never turn it off. It just goes off when not being used (won't shut off during media playback).

This is all backed by a 7TB server that I store all our media on. Video takes the vast majority, at about 5TB, with music hardly taking half a terabyte (16.8K FLAC songs, all direct from CDs I own). I have ethernet in the walls to every TV so I get full 100 or 1000 Mb speeds to every box. I do have a ethernet over powerline adapter if I decide I need something where there is no ethernet. These work ok but only if they get decent speeds over the powerlines.

Now I have elaborated on other details around this forum a lot. Info such as the remotes I use, which I have created a configuration file for MC that works perfectly. Almost every room also has at least a 2.1 stereo with a couple having 5.1 so in those cases I make sure to have an optical sound card so the receiver or pre-amp can receive the full audio stream and all channels.

The video quality I have seen is acceptable but I am quite picky. I do notice some stuttering across movie motion sequences that I think are partly my video card's fault but I'm not even positive about that because I see the same thing on my desktop with a very expensive, high-end graphics card. The HTPCs are built very cheaply ( < $400) probably even less today with emphasis on a nice HTPC case and onboard video/audio so I don't have to add another card, which would add $50 - 200 extra alone.

My system is truly approaching perfection. The key problems I experience now related to MCs inabilities. Obviously, MC is still the best and only workable solution I know of but there are some quirks that I would like to see resolved. I bring them up from time to time in hopes that they might get considered.

chirpp · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2008, 04:31:51 pm »

Thanks for the info. I do not have a video out on my computer so it sounds like I would need to get something that way. My "best" tv is old, rca analog and S_video inputs at best. Any suggestions on cards to put in the pc for this? I guess I was thinking I would start small, see how it goes, then see what I need to do to build it up. Getting cheap PC's is easy so I would head down that path if my first setup looks good.

It's the holidays, I deserve something, right?

benn600 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 12, 2008, 04:50:28 pm »

They have to be decent powered, though. So my $300 or so goes to brand new hardware. You typically need well over 1 GHz for decent playback and 1GB of memory..obviously your results will vary.

They do have cards with S-Video output but I think it can even be used from a VGA output, possibly.

imugli · « **Reply #25 on:** January 05, 2009, 06:02:13 am »

Quote from: benn600 on December 12, 2008, 02:41:53 pm

I have about 8 computers hooked to TVs around the house, which are termed HTPC (home theater pc) devices. They do not really need any special hardware other than a video and audio output that is compatible with your television input. Two of my HTPCs have HDMI output that conveniently plugs into our TVs. The rest of them have DVI out which can be plugged directly into a few TVs and others simply need an inexpensive DVI -> HDMI converter. A few of my TV areas are actually using a standard computer monitor. I just have the computer setup to turn off the monitor after 3 minutes. Then, we never turn it off. It just goes off when not being used (won't shut off during media playback).

This is all backed by a 7TB server that I store all our media on. Video takes the vast majority, at about 5TB, with music hardly taking half a terabyte (16.8K FLAC songs, all direct from CDs I own). I have ethernet in the walls to every TV so I get full 100 or 1000 Mb speeds to every box. I do have a ethernet over powerline adapter if I decide I need something where there is no ethernet. These work ok but only if they get decent speeds over the powerlines.

Now I have elaborated on other details around this forum a lot. Info such as the remotes I use, which I have created a configuration file for MC that works perfectly. Almost every room also has at least a 2.1 stereo with a couple having 5.1 so in those cases I make sure to have an optical sound card so the receiver or pre-amp can receive the full audio stream and all channels.

The video quality I have seen is acceptable but I am quite picky. I do notice some stuttering across movie motion sequences that I think are partly my video card's fault but I'm not even positive about that because I see the same thing on my desktop with a very expensive, high-end graphics card. The HTPCs are built very cheaply ( < $400) probably even less today with emphasis on a nice HTPC case and onboard video/audio so I don't have to add another card, which would add $50 - 200 extra alone.

My system is truly approaching perfection. The key problems I experience now related to MCs inabilities. Obviously, MC is still the best and only workable solution I know of but there are some quirks that I would like to see resolved. I bring them up from time to time in hopes that they might get considered.

Man, you have exactly what I imagine my house being like one day. A Touchscreen HTPC in every room, connected to an Asterisk PABX running off a central server. Boo Yah to you, my friend!

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Author Topic: Getting the media to the living room... (Read 9242 times)