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[chriswale]

Date: 13th Jan 2009
Help request: The [Year tag field] is not always saving the date I insert... what could be the issue?

Introduction:

I have been using Media Jukebox 12 to organize my music collection (MP3) for about a year.  I take organizing my music seriously! I like many genres of music ranging from 1950 - 2009. I've spent hundreds of hours tagging music in Media Jukebox and regard myself an experienced user.  I've even employed someone to help me organize my music.I use a range of tools to get the right song information, but surprisingly, I have found that tagging my song manually one at a time in Media Jukebox to be the most precise and effective way in which to organize my collection.  In my current opinion Media Jukebox is certainly the best software for organizing and playing your music collection.

Now, the software has been working perfectly, except for one major annoyance that I discovered yesterday! 
And it all has to do with one of the most important tag fields: YEAR.

The problem: Editing the (YEAR TAG) for songs - reverts back to original value on list refresh

After manually editing the YEAR TAG for songs, some of the years are reverting back to their original value (blank or the original year value). 
For instance, I'll be editing a batch of songs and tagging each song as I go through the list - and when I pay attention I notice that some of the years are reverting back to their original values.  This doesn't happen instantly, it's only noticeable when the list automatically refreshes and I can actually see the year changing back or disappearing.   

? Now I have only encountered this problem with the YEAR TAG.  All other tag fields work perfectly and remain the same (i.e. artist, song name, rating, description, genre, lyrics).  If any of my settings were wrong, or windows didn't have disk write permissions, why would only the year tag be an issue???

Testing Methods:

All the Media Jukebox options are set to default and I have tested and encountered the issue on two separate machines (windows vista and xp). I have also tested with music on a server vs. directly on the local hard drive.

Why this is so annoying...

Finding the right year for which a song was released is not a simple process. Most automatic search tools get the year wrong, and one needs to hunt for the right year on sites like Discogs or Wikipedia. So, you can imagine how annoying it is to be sorting through your music one song at a time, only to find that some of the years 'magically' change back to the original value!  Some don't, some do... its the strangest thing. 

Solution?

My only work around at the moment is this:  I edit a list of songs, including the year tags (writing each change down on a piece of paper), wait for a refresh (or exit and open the Jukebox), and then go through the list again to see which year tags reverted back.  I then change them again, and again, until eventually all the Year Tags are right.  It's a tedious process and not an acceptable solution.  It's certainly enough of an issue to make me start looking for alternative software for tagging my MP3s, and I wish it wasn't so.   

? JRiver, do you know about this, are you fixing this issue?? Has anyone else encountered this? Has anybody got any suggestions?

I'm happy to supply more information if you need.  I'm even prepared to contact JRiver and try resolve the issue telephonically... or at least report this horrible bug. I'm tired of going through the Years again and again.

Regards,
Chris

[Alex B]

Your problem is not common. I think it could be partly caused by the automatic import feature which re-reads file tags when there are external changes. Do you have any other programs that might read and save tag changes outside MJ12?

I just checked how MJ12 saves the file tags and couldn't immediately see anything wrong. MJ12 handles tags perfectly fine when other programs are not involved.

One possible cause for the behavior could be the ID3 version in the file tags. MJ12 is fully compatible with ID3 v2.3 with ISO-8859-1 character encoding. MJ12 does not fully support the version 2.4 with UTF-8 encoding. It can read such tags but it does not write the so called TDRC field that is used in the version 2.4 for storing the year and also more precise date values. If a file contains a TDRC tag frame it will remain untouched.

If an external programs wipes the "Comment: Media Jukebox: Date" frame (which contains a proprietary precise date value) MJ12 may get the old year value from the otherwise unused TDRC frame when tags are updated from the file. Some programs do not support additional comment frames and may delete them.

EDIT

I assume that you have not changed any of the default library fields to not write a file tag.

EDIT 2

MJ12 has a file tag display that may help in resolving the issue. You can select a file and click the first text line in Action Window > Tag to see a tag dump that comes directly from the file.

[chriswale]

Thank you for your comment Alex B.  It's encouraging to get some feedback.  Unfortunately, I still have not be able to identify the cause of this issue.  It remains a mystery for me.  Hopefully further testing will reveal.

I hear what you're saying about the problem not being a common one... However, I've discovered the issue on two completely separate machines, one running XP and the other running Vista.  One is accessing the MP3s directly from the local hard drive, and the other is accessing the MP3s from a 3rd server machine. Perhaps, I could format one of the machines and only install MJ12, see if the problem persists. But first I'll attempt a less drastic solution...

Regarding the comment: More than one software application handling the MP3 data/tags

All MP3 tagging on my music collection is done manually in MJ12... and only MJ12. No other MP3 tagging tools are ever allowed to access the MP3 collection!  However, I do utilize 3rd party software tools, like Tag Runner. But... I actually duplicate the MP3 data and keep the original data (MP3s) safe from harm. Meaning that I'll copy a portion of my MP3 collection, run scans on the copied files, use that information to manually edit the original collection in MJ12, and delete the copied files immediately after. I find that the 'automatic' tagging tools are useful, but only for some information like YEAR and LYRICS.  Therefore, MJ12 is the only software that ever gets to edit/tag the original music collection. 

Regarding the comment: ID3 version

You mentioned the ID3 version of the tags, I will look into the this. However, why would YEAR field be the only field with an issue, wouldn't all the tag fields have an issue is the version was not compatible. And why would the tagging of the YEAR eventually work, after renaming the year once or twice. Sometimes I have to rename the field a 3rd time, but cannot remember having to do it more than 3 times for a particular song. 

Encoding

One particular MP3 that reverted back to the original year and had to be edited twice before the year remain was had the following profile: LAME 3.92, 320kbps, 44100Hz, MPEG1 (Layer III), ID3v2.3.0. 
I've also run a scan on this specific file (copied version) in Helium Music Manager and it appears to be in excellent health.

YEAR appears to be an ID2v1 tag field.

Date vs. Year?

Which tag field should one use for the year release of a song, YEAR or DATE?
It appears that one edits the other.

Answer to question: I assume that you have not changed any of the default library fields to not write a file tag?

All the settings are on default. The only customization is the reorder of the column headers, which should not cause this issue.
Run auto import in background: On
Update for external changes: On

Regarding action window > Tag

I prefer to tag the MP3 in the list directly (rename / F2).
But yes I have seen this, and have tried to tag the YEAR field here as well. The same thing happens... sometimes the year sticks and sometimes it doesn't.
 
More information about the issue

When changing the YEAR field of an MP3 directly in the list (or in the tag panel), sometimes the YEAR field will revert back to its original value. This occurs for both original YEAR values that are filled or blank. (Described in more detail above).
If I edited a whole bunch of song years and then watch the list, on refresh, I can actually see some of the years revert back, whilst other remain corrected. Terrible annoying!

Still looking for a solution

I'll continue editing the music collection. I'll report when I have issues. Perhaps we can get to the bottom of this.
Perhaps someone could run some tests?  I wish that I had the one of developers of MJ12 sitting right here to see the issue with their own eyes!

[chriswale]

Okay... the above issue remains. But now I have discovered another issue related to tagging.

[Mood Tag Field]

I haven't run too many tests yet, but this is an exact example of what happens...

• Tagged a song with a MOOD: "Test"
• Restarted MJ12 and the tag had remained (good) 
• Tried to remove the mood from the tag to: "" [blank] and after a refresh, the tag reverts back to "Test" (bad) 
• Changed the MOOD to: "Test2" and after a refresh the tag remains on "Test2" (good) 
• Then I removed the mood from the tag from "Test2" to: "" [blank] and after a refresh, the tag reverts back to "Test2" (bad) 

This is so odd... and it happens everytime I test it! Surely this shouldn't happen?
It only seems to happen when I delete the value, whereas the issue with tagging the YEAR (above) occurs sometimes even if I change the value (i.e. from 1950 to 1960).

? What could all this be? does anyone else have the same issue?? can someone test this?
Could it be related to the issue I am experiencing with tagging the year?

Arrggg

[Alex B]

Of dear, I have a feeling that solving this is not going to be be exactly easy, but I'll try. I guess the JRiver developers do not have any better answers.

I hear what you're saying about the problem not being a common one... However, I've discovered the issue on two completely separate machines, one running XP and the other running Vista.  One is accessing the MP3s directly from the local hard drive, and the other is accessing the MP3s from a 3rd server machine. Perhaps, I could format one of the machines and only install MJ12, see if the problem persists. But first I'll attempt a less drastic solution...

Reformatting might help if an external program is causing the problem. For instance, sometimes an installed file utility/browsing tool or antivirus program can cause odd problems.

Regarding the comment: More than one software application handling the MP3 data/tags

Maybe that happens without you knowing. For example, Windows Media Player is known to be able to alter the file tags and cover art files in the background.

Regarding the comment: ID3 version

You mentioned the ID3 version of the tags, I will look into the this. However, why would YEAR field be the only field with an issue, wouldn't all the tag fields have an issue is the version was not compatible.

ID3v2 tagging is not as straightforward as one would like to think. The actual tags in the files contain rather cryptic code and all frames must follow a predefined structure. There are several versions and different character encoding formats (this refers only to the text format in the tags, not the MP3 encoding format). You can find more info here: http://www.id3.org/.

And why would the tagging of the YEAR eventually work, after renaming the year once or twice. Sometimes I have to rename the field a 3rd time, but cannot remember having to do it more than 3 times for a particular song.

You need to understand that MJ12 saves the tag changes first in its database (aka library). It writes tags to the files if the file format supports tag writing and tag writing is enabled in the options.

If you set MJ12 to update for external changes the automatic background task can notice a changed file modification time stamp and reimport the file tags to the library.

Date vs. Year?

Which tag field should one use for the year release of a song, YEAR or DATE?
It appears that one edits the other.

You should edit the Date field. The Year field is mainly intended for display purposes. You can actually use a more precise Date value and the Year field will show a calculated year value.

Update for external changes: On

As a workaround, you can disable this option. However, that would not resolve a possible file tagging issue.

Regarding action window > Tag

I prefer to tag the MP3 in the list directly (rename / F2).
But yes I have seen this, and have tried to tag the YEAR field here as well. The same thing happens... sometimes the year sticks and sometimes it doesn't.

Editing in the "Action Window > Tag" and inline editing in the main pain do exactly the same. You can use both methods.

Once you have the AW > Tag window open and a single file is selected you can click the first line in AW > Tag to open a new window that shows directly the physical files tags, not the library tags.
 

More information about the issue

When changing the YEAR field of an MP3 directly in the list (or in the tag panel), sometimes the YEAR field will revert back to its original value. This occurs for both original YEAR values that are filled or blank. (Described in more detail above).
If I edited a whole bunch of song years and then watch the list, on refresh, I can actually see some of the years revert back, whilst other remain corrected. Terrible annoying!

Apparently something is preventing MJ12 from writing the tags correctly or alters the file tags outside MJ12. Later on the Auto-Import feature rereads file tags and the library info changes. Auto-Import should not re-read files that are not changed after MJ12 saved changes so I suspect that some external program alters the files.

Okay... the above issue remains. But now I have discovered another issue related to tagging.

[Mood Tag Field]

I haven't run too many tests yet, but this is an exact example of what happens...

• Tagged a song with a MOOD: "Test"
• Restarted MJ12 and the tag had remained (good) 
• Tried to remove the mood from the tag to: "" [blank] and after a refresh, the tag reverts back to "Test" (bad) 
• Changed the MOOD to: "Test2" and after a refresh the tag remains on "Test2" (good) 
• Then I removed the mood from the tag from "Test2" to: "" [blank] and after a refresh, the tag reverts back to "Test2" (bad) 

This is so odd... and it happens everytime I test it! Surely this shouldn't happen?
It only seems to happen when I delete the value, whereas the issue with tagging the YEAR (above) occurs sometimes even if I change the value (i.e. from 1950 to 1960).

? What could all this be? does anyone else have the same issue?? can someone test this?
Could it be related to the issue I am experiencing with tagging the year?

The "Mood" library field is one of the fields that are written to a ID3v2 comment frame. The frame header inside the file is "Comment Musicmatch Mood". As I said earlier, the proprietary precise date value is written to another comment frame. I guess the "Mood" and "Year" problems are caused by the same reason.

[chriswale]

Okay thank you. I will experiment a bit more... and I'll post any more findings here.

In the meantime, I have another question relevant to tagging...

Is it safe to use the [Description] tag field? or could I lose data?

I like to use this field for indicating the strength of the song:

"- - -" = very chilled music
"- -" = chilled music
"-" = slightly chilled music
[blank] = neutral music
"+" = viby music
"+ +" = heavy music
"+ + +" = very heavy music

Is there a better way to do this?

I specifically want to save the information to the MP3 tag and I am concerned about losing all my hard work! ouch.
Especially if I one day decide to use an alternative MP3 player.  Where should I be careful?

And what about the other tags, these are also important to me:

• Rating
• Genre
• Mood

Thank you so much for your effort so far!

[Alex B]

They all equally safe. In your case something odd is going on and until the problem is resolved file tagging may not be reliable.

For now, as a workaround, you can disable the "update for external changes" auto-import setting and monitor if that changes anything. MJ12 will tag the files, but it will not automatically import external changes.

You can also create a new up-to-date backup copy of your library after each tagging session. (File > Library > Back Up Library). MJ12 creates automatic backup copies, but I think it creates them only about every other day or so. The automatic backup files are saved in C:\Documents and Settings\[your user name]\Application Data\J River\Media Jukebox 12\Library Backups. This is the default location on XP. The application data path is slightly different on Vista.

In addition to the field data a library backup file contains also all playlists, customized views and statistical data. In case something unexpected happens to your library data (or your PC) you can always restore the latest backup file. It would be better to store the manually created backup files in a safe place, separate from your system drive.