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[gu]

I'm about to order the parts for my first HTPC, which will mainly be used for playing music. I'm rather confused about what will be the best approach for getting decent sound from the PC and out of my stereo speakers. I listen to music all day and I care about good sound. But I'm no audiophile. Music is far more important to me than subtle differences in sound quality. I don't want to put a lot of money into this. I don't think my ears are able to appreciate anything with a price above $300.

My amp only has analog input, so I either have to send analog sound from the PC, or use some kind of external DAC. The options I've considered so far are:

1. Analog sound from the integrated sound card on the motherboard.
- Does anyone know if there are motherboards with decent integrated sound? Preferably microATX cards. So far I've been looking at motherboards with either GeForce 9400 or AMD 780G/790GX chip sets.

2. Analog sound from an internal/external dedicated sound card.
-What would be the best choice within my budget?

3. Digital sound from the motherboard via an external DAC.
- Is it possible to get a decent external DAC within my budget?

4. Digital sound from an internal sound card via an external DAC.
-Will the chip sets mentioned above require a dedicated sound card for digital output?

I really hope to get some advice here.
Thanks in advance!

[JimH]

This thread might be useful.

[gu]

Thanks for the link. But I'm still confused about what kind of hardware I need to get decent sound out of my speakers.

[Pjotr]

Hi Gu,

What are your needs? Do you in intend multi channel home theatre or just high quality 2 channel stereo?

[Frobozz]

Are you looking for two channel audio for the HTPC or do you want surround?

For two channel audio there are good budget USB DACs.  They plug in the USB port.
Here's a sampling:

Audiomagus sells several: Audiomagus
Musical Fidelity V-DAC has gotten good reviews: Musical Fidelity V-DAC
KECES
Review of the Musiland MD10 (pdf): Musiland MD10 review in AffordableAudio
AffordableAudio has other reviews of USB DACs as well
Distributor for Musiland

All of those will sound better than the analog out from the motherboard sound chip.  It should be a noticeable change in audio quality with a reasonable speaker and amp.  Onboard analog audio is not that good.

Many of those DACs will also allow you to connect the digital out from the MB (coax or optical) if you want to go that route.  But I like the USB option better.  The USB option separates the high quality audio that goes to the stereo from the low quality computer sounds that will be sent to the onboard audio.

[Alex B]

My advice would be to buy a pro PCI sound card.

I can recommend the following:

< $100   E-MU 0404 PCI 
< $200   E-MU 1212M PCI

M-Audio is another well-known brand, but I think the E-MU PCI cards provide more bang for the buck.

0404 PCI is as good or better than a typical stand-alone hi-fi CD player or HT-receiver's built-in DAC.

1212M PCI is extremely good. Spending $300-500 to some other sound card would probably not improve the audio quality.


If someone has too much money the next step could be

< $1000   LynxTwo-B

It provides more pro features and also marginally better audio quality than E-MU 1212M PCI (the small differences that can be measured may not be audioble).

In general, I doubt any "audiophile" DAC regardless of the price can produce significantly better measurements or audibly more accurate output than the Lynx.


It is often said that USB devices are better than PCI cards because PCI cards pick up electronic interference from other components, but personally I have never had that problem with PCI cards.

[gu]

Thanks a lot for useful replys.

I want two channel stereo. The idea is to get the sound from the PC into my integrated amp (that only accepts analog input) and out of my stereo speakers.

@Frobozz:
I'll take a look at the DACs you've suggested. For some reason I've thought that the digital output from the motherboard would provide better quality than USB. Thank you for clearing this up.

@Alex B:
I've been looking at those cards. The Lynx is too expensive for me, but I'm considering the E-MUs. Here in Norway, the 0404 is more expensive ($290) than the 1212M ($250), so the 1212M would obviously be the choice.

I've also been looking at M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and Onkyo SE-90PCI. There's not much info to find about the Onkyo card, but it has received some excellent user reviews here in Norway. And the price is only about $160.

[Alex B]

Here in Norway, the 0404 is more expensive ($290) than the 1212M ($250), so the 1212M would obviously be the choice.

I think you are referring the 0404 USB model. 0404 PCI is a different product:
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=10447

Here is a review of it: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep04/articles/emu0404.htm
and a quote from the review:

Running my audio tests using Rightmark's Audio Analyser v5.3, the 0404 turned in a truly superb performance for a £69.99 soundcard, with a frequency response that was +0.14/-0.13dB from 20Hz to 20kHz, and total harmonic distortion of just 0.002 percent. However, it's the dynamic range measurements that are most remarkable: at an astonishing 112dBA, this is an amazing 16dB better than M Audio's Audiophile 2496, 12dB better than their Firewire 410, and 4dB better than Echo's Mia. Only when you compare it with Emu's own 1212M and 1820M do its results fall behind by about 6dB.

I checked the well-known European pro webstore, Thomann. Seems like they don't have a dedicated shop for Norway, but 0404 PCI can be found from their Swedish shop: http://www.thomann.de/se/emu_0404_digital_audio_system.htm. It's 99 Euros there (or 1054 SEK, I think that's about 850 NOK).

[gu]

You're right. The price guide I'm using shows a picture of the 0404 PCI model, but when I clicked the link to the shop, it turned out to be a USB model. The 0404 PCI doesn't seem to be available here in Norway. But, of course, I can order it from Sweden (or another country). The review you linked to is very convincing. The Audiophile 2496 is quite popular here and has received good reviews. But based on the review on soundonsound.com, 0404 looks like a better investment. 99 euros is 866,94 NOK right now. If I can can get good sound at that price, I think it's a bargain.

But I'm still tempted by the Onkyo card. People seem to be really enthusiastic about its quality. And the price in only 1250 NOK. Do you know anything about it?

[JimH]

You can trust Alex.  He is never wrong.

[Alex B]

I think 0404 PCI should be compared with Audiophile 192 instead of Audiophile 2496.

I did a google search for "0404 PCI" site:.no

Its price is 895 NOK in the first link that came up:
http://www.musikkinstrumenter.no/product_detail.asp?pkCategory=559&pkSubCategory=610&pkSubSubCategory=646&pkProduct=2643

In addition they have 1212M PCI for 1450 NOK, but you can buy it cheaper from Germany: http://www.preissuchmaschine.de/in-Multimedia/Soundkarte/E-MU-1212M.html. Though I suppose the delivery cost may be a bit more from Germany.

Regarding to the Onkyo card, I am sorry, but I know very little about it. I think I once saw some discussion about it at www.head-fi.org or maybe at www.avsforum.com.


Disclaimer: I may be wrong.   

[Frobozz]

USB audio got a bad rap from the early days when they weren't so good.  They're very good now and audiophiles are using USB DACs and USB audio interfaces now.

I find USB devices easier to connect than PCI cards.  With PCI you have to open the computer case and have to reach around back of the computer to plug in cables.  USB devices can also be used with laptops.  But PCI cards can be less expensive than USB DACs.  It's a tradeoff.

The pro audio (home studio) oriented cards like the EMU and M-Audio and others are also options.  I didn't mention them because they're more complicated to set up.  They have more inputs and outputs.  Some inputs and outputs may be balanced while others are unbalanced.  You may need adapters to convert an output to unbalanced RCA.  If you're comfortable getting a little "geek" and understanding the different pro audio style inputs and outputs you can do well with a pro audio style audio device.  Prices for the pro style gear can be competitive and well in your budget.

The EMU 0404 USB and 0202 USB are fairly straight-forward to set up.  They have a regular line level unbalanced 1/8" output jack on the back.  Plug in a 1/8" to RCA 'Y' cable and you'll be ready to go.  You can also use two 1/4" mono to RCA adapters with the EMU and most other pro audio style cards/devices to connect regular RCA audio cables.

My computer based audio setup uses an M-Audio FireWire audio interface.  It's a home studio pro audio style device.  It works well, just a little bit more complicated to set up.

[gu]

I think 0404 PCI should be compared with Audiophile 192 instead of Audiophile 2496.

I did a google search for "0404 PCI" site:.no

Its price is 895 NOK in the first link that came up:
http://www.musikkinstrumenter.no/product_detail.asp?pkCategory=559&pkSubCategory=610&pkSubSubCategory=646&pkProduct=2643

In addition they have 1212M PCI for 1450 NOK, but you can buy it cheaper from Germany: http://www.preissuchmaschine.de/in-Multimedia/Soundkarte/E-MU-1212M.html. Though I suppose the delivery cost may be a bit more from Germany.

Regarding to the Onkyo card, I am sorry, but I know very little about it. I think I once saw some discussion about it at www.head-fi.org or maybe at www.avsforum.com.


Disclaimer: I may be wrong.   

Hmm... that google thing seems to be magic. Thanks for the link. 895 NOK is well within my budget.

Here's a thread about the Onkyo at head-fi.org. Not much of a review, really. But the guy seems to be happy with his card.

[gu]

If you're comfortable getting a little "geek" and understanding the different pro audio style inputs and outputs you can do well with a pro audio style audio device.  Prices for the pro style gear can be competitive and well in your budget.

I'm absolutely comfortable getting a little geek. Having to open the computer and reaching around to the back, doesn't matter. I'm building this PC from the ground anayway. The reason for me to choose an external device would be price or quality (maybe electronic interference).

[Alex B]

As I said in my first reply I think you would get more bang for the buck if you choose a PCI card, especially since you are going to build a dedicated HTPC from parts and if you are not planning to use the same device with other PCs.

With the saved money you can buy a separate M-Audio Transit USB device and use with laptops or other PCs if their audio quality needs to be enhanced.

[Pjotr]

Whatever you choose, stay away from cards with 3.5 mm mini jacks. These plugs are unreliable and no good for high quality audio.

Also if you don’t need 192 kHz sampling rate it is not worth spending extra money for that. For PCI I have tested/used the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and the M-Audio Audiophile 192. For normal 44.1 kHz both sound equally good. The Audiophile 2496 goes for around  €80 - €90 and has neat cinch connectors and doesn’t need breakout cables, breakout cables for the low priced cards are usually of not such high quality. Certainly the best bang for the buck IMO. Over the years this card has become more or less a standard for lo priced high quality cards.

There is one concern with PCI cards and that is noise from data cables and mains cables can easily enter your sensitive audio signal cables. So keep them as far from each other as possible.

At the moment I am using a E-MU 0404 USB for my audio set-up connected to a laptop. This card goes for around €199 and is really very good. For half the price there is the E-MU 0202 USB which sounds also very good. The 0404 sounds slightly better but it is hard to tell the difference. Advantage of USB cards is you can more easily keep you audio cables away from data cables and are more flexible for use with laptops. If you use USB cards don’t power them through the USB cable. The 5V power from the PC can be rather noisy. Powering them through a separate 5V supply certainly gives an improvement.