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Author Topic: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows  (Read 11924 times)

benn600

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Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« on: January 22, 2009, 08:49:27 pm »

My favorite magic bullet is formatting and reinstalling.  Yes, it's complete.  But it's complete!  That's the good part.  Format every year!
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rick.ca

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 01:58:58 am »

Quote
Was afraid that might be the answer.  I've done it many times... just don't want to go through all that right now.

If you've done that many times, maybe you're ready for my magic bullet: Don't ever, under any circumstances, reformat and reinstall. It's always faster to fix whatever is wrong. And by doing so, you learn how to stay out of trouble and keep your system running well.

It's been a while since I've done it, but it seems to me the CCCP installation routine and/or related tools include the detection and removal of other codecs. It worked for me, and I haven't reinstalled Windows in seven years! ;D
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benn600

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 08:03:54 am »

Quote
If you've done that many times, maybe you're ready for my magic bullet: Don't ever, under any circumstances, reformat and reinstall. It's always faster to fix whatever is wrong. And by doing so, you learn how to stay out of trouble and keep your system running well.

Don't ever make a blanket statement like this.  I will guarantee you this is not true (for me anyway).  Many experts suggest formatting regularly.  I have perfected formatting down to an art.  I can reformat our house of 13 computers easily in one day.  I have everything I install specially placed on the server, including drivers, etc.  My technique is to format them and setup basic drivers physically.  Then, I get Logmein running.  From my own computer, I open each PC in a tab and once I run my .reg file, everything is setup on that user.  The desktop is then shared from the same location.  So, all I have to do is copy shortcuts to the appropriate installers to the desktop and double click on all 13 computers.  Installing multigigabyte programs over gigabit networking is smokin' fast, too!  Especially with a fast server that can serve some serious data.

The weeks after a fresh housewide install are blissful and quiet.  Absolutely everything is working perfectly.  Plus, it is a chance to guarantee every computer has the latest version / update.  In the aftermath, it is uncommon for me to be sure every computer gets every update...it's just to time consuming to spend the 5 minutes logging onto each computer and updating.  Oh yes, and I setup our 5 printers, all network based and all always on.

13 computers in one day?  And I'm talking Firefox, Thunderbird, My Documents, MC, Desktop, etc. ALL pointing to the server and every of 4 user accounts configured to strict standards that I set.  (disable screen saver, set power management, remove a ton from start menu, categorize start menu <- time consuming!).  Beat that!  This does NOT include my server which is a new journey every time.
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benn600

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 08:14:24 am »

I should add what happens as time goes on.  Not only do we have no anti-virus/anti-spyware software but we probably have fewer computer problems than most people in the world.  Small things just develop little problems.  I noticed on everyone's user account except my own--Auto Wallpaper Changer has stopped working.  I am in big need of a fresh format....

Firefox 3 & MC13 being released are EASILY enough for me to justify a format.  I always prefer a fresh, brand new system  free of old version folders/references/etc.  Not to mention new processes--it can take months for me to test different software to find a piece that I feel is good enough for everyone to use--if it's lumped into my format install routine, it's probably a minute to install it housewide.

I was formatting every 6 - 12 months.  Unfortunately, due to the fact I was out of the state for a few months and we moved to a new house, everything got jumbled beyond belief.  It has now been 18 months and our hardware setup has changed drastically.  I really need to format badly but we are still finalizing our computer setups--who gets what--and printer layouts, which get named based on their location.  Just a few weeks ago when we finished our theater/print shop, major changes occurred to the configuration of the printers--names, ip addresses, etc.
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glynor

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2009, 09:29:47 am »

If you've done that many times, maybe you're ready for my magic bullet: Don't ever, under any circumstances, reformat and reinstall. It's always faster to fix whatever is wrong. And by doing so, you learn how to stay out of trouble and keep your system running well.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  There is tons of cruft that builds up in any Windows install, assuming that you actually allow yourself to use the system in question (keeping drivers up-to-date and whatnot).  The paging file always gets all fragmented, the registry builds up cruft from any software install you do (particularly games with their DRM crap), and I've seen the hard performance benefits of a clean install over and over.  Besides, I've never had the hardware makeup stable enough on a system (meaining, I swap stuff in and out all the time, not actual "stability") to keep a Windows install going for much more than a year or two at the most.

The "real" magic bullet is Acronis True Image: http://www.acronis.com/

Install Windows and your full complement of drivers.  Make an Image and mark it as a "clean" image.  Then install all your "accessory" software, and make a second image, marking it as a "full" image.  Save these images on a secondary hard drive in a closet (preferably with one of these for easy access).

Next time you need to get back to a "clean" system, it is simply a process of: (1) back up your data, (2) re-image the system (which is automated and extremely fast), (3) restore your data, (4) run Windows Updates to get you back up to current (since your image will be old).  This is so much easier than a full, manual, reinstall of everything from scratch.  Once you're done, it's a good idea to recreate that "full" image with all the new updates so that next time you go back you won't be going quite as far back.

I re-image my main "home office" machine (where I do testing, install games, and generally play with stuff) once every three months or so.  It only takes me about 30 minutes to do and it is almost completely automated (speeded by the fact that I have all my user data and documents on a secondary drive so I don't even need to do the backup/restore process).
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Gl3nn

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2009, 09:38:55 am »

If you've done that many times, maybe you're ready for my magic bullet: Don't ever, under any circumstances, reformat and reinstall. It's always faster to fix whatever is wrong. And by doing so, you learn how to stay out of trouble and keep your system running well.

It's been a while since I've done it, but it seems to me the CCCP installation routine and/or related tools include the detection and removal of other codecs. It worked for me, and I haven't reinstalled Windows in seven years! ;D

100% disagree with the 1st sentence.  YMMV

Thanks for the info in the 2nd paragaraph.
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Gl3nn

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 09:43:32 am »

I was formatting every 6 - 12 months.  Unfortunately, due to the fact I was out of the state for a few months and we moved to a new house, everything got jumbled beyond belief.  It has now been 18 months and our hardware setup has changed drastically.  I really need to format badly but we are still finalizing our computer setups--who gets what--and printer layouts, which get named based on their location.  Just a few weeks ago when we finished our theater/print shop, major changes occurred to the configuration of the printers--names, ip addresses, etc.

How do you handle all the personal configurations, like in Office (if you use that) or Firefox (add-ins) or MC (!) which accrue over time?  How do you retain or recreate those?  That's what I find to be the most work.
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Gl3nn

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 09:47:51 am »

The "real" magic bullet is Acronis True Image: http://www.acronis.com/

Next time you need to get back to a "clean" system, it is simply a process of: (1) back up your data, (2) re-image the system (which is automated and extremely fast), (3) restore your data, (4) run Windows Updates to get you back up to current (since your image will be old).  This is so much easier than a full, manual, reinstall of everything from scratch.  Once you're done, it's a good idea to recreate that "full" image with all the new updates so that next time you go back you won't be going quite as far back.


Agree. That's what I do.  Still have the issue of all the customizations in the various software packages that creep over time.  I mean, I'm constantly twiddling with settings in my main software packages.  I just can't keep notes on what I do when so that I can re-create them when I re-initialize with a 6-month old image.  That's the big issue for me.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 10:11:15 am »

I think much of the reformatting performance effect is a bit of a Placebo.
The main reason it doesn't seem so slow is it hasn't had 200 odd Windows updates installed, even if it's installed with the latest SP.

On the other hand it's definitley possible to get to a point where you spend more time googling for soloutions to Windows issues than the time spent restoring either an image or complete clean restart.

You can't win either way though.  I always find I've saved something where I shouldn't have done and lost it when you start again, so end up now taking images of the dodgy installation before blanking.... and then you end up with disks and disks of data that you never get round to sorting out to see if theres anything useful on them.

glynor

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 10:34:38 am »

I think much of the reformatting performance effect is a bit of a Placebo.
The main reason it doesn't seem so slow is it hasn't had 200 odd Windows updates installed, even if it's installed with the latest SP.

On the other hand it's definitley possible to get to a point where you spend more time googling for soloutions to Windows issues than the time spent restoring either an image or complete clean restart.

I've done plenty of benchmarks.  It isn't just placebo.  Boot up times (not just to the desktop, but to a usable desktop with all accessory applications loaded and ready) can often be improved by a measurable amount.

I think it is less Windows Updates and more incremental driver updates and software installers that cause issues.  That's because you need to immediately re-apply all those Windows Updates patches anyway (and a SP is just a collection of mostly previously released patches).  Sometimes it is the issue of "patches of patches of patches" that the re-image can help with, but that only applies if you actually do the clean reinstall with a slipstreamed XP disc.

Perhaps if you never update your drivers, and if you never install new software then you can avoid the issues.  That never works for me.  An occasional re-image combined with regular CCleaner sweeps keeps me running pretty well most of the time.

The other reason to do it is if you ever get a virus or a serious spyware infection.  With modern malware techniques using rootkits and other kernel-level patches, once you get infected it is completely pointless to even try to remove them manually because you can't really ever fully trust the system again.

If you use a disk image system, nuke and pave is the way to go.

Agree. That's what I do.  Still have the issue of all the customizations in the various software packages that creep over time.  I mean, I'm constantly twiddling with settings in my main software packages.  I just can't keep notes on what I do when so that I can re-create them when I re-initialize with a 6-month old image.  That's the big issue for me.

That is difficult.  I try to keep my images updated every 3 months or so, which helps.  That's part of why I do the re-image, it also forces me to update the image itself.  You can also mitigate this somewhat by using regedit and careful migration of parts of your user account's Documents and Settings folder.

I actually have a script that I run that collects my Firefox profile and zips it up and stores it on my User Documents drive on a monthly basis, so that is always easy to restore (I just run the script before I nuke the C drive).  I've been meaning to expand that script to collect a few other folders out of the Application Data subfolder for a long time (including the JRiver folder), but I never seem to get to it (perhaps when I fully move to Windows 7, I'll get there).  For now, I collect those manually before I do the nuke.  It doesn't take long if you know what you're looking for well (which comes with practice).  I don't want to just restore the full Documents and Settings folder structure though, as that would somewhat defeat the purpose of the nuke!

I also go through with Regedit and back up a few different registry keys in HKey_Current_User, like the J River one again.

However, I find that the vast majority of my customizations are included in my "full" image backup.  The few new things I've changed that I actually use, I make sure to include in the "refresh" of the image that I create when I'm all done.  It is frustrating when you forget a few things.  I usually end up doing this:

1. Back up a few "Documents and Settings", Desktop, and registry things.  Again, since my "My Documents" folder has been moved to a separate hard drive, I don't need to worry about most of my documents.
2. Nuke and Reimage.
3. Restore backups from Step 1.
4. Windows Updates
5. Update Drivers to the latest version (usually just video card drivers, but occasionally other things get updated too).
6. Reinstall/Update the handful of essential applications that are old and outdated in my image file (MC, SyncBack, etc).  If I don't use an application that often, I don't worry about it until next time I need it though (since there will often be a new version by then anyway).
7. Re-image the system to create a new, fresh, "full" image.
8. Wait about a week and use the system, but try to avoid testing new software.  Fixing settings where needed.
9. Re-image the system again to include the inevitable few things I forgot to include the first time.

After a few times of doing this process, you reach a fairly stable equilibrium where you can mostly eliminate or reduce steps 6 and 9.  Again, I find the whole process of 1-7 only usually takes about 30-45 minutes of "work" (with walk-away waiting for imaging and Windows Updates to run not included).  Most of that time is actually reinstalling the stupid video card drivers.
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glynor

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 10:41:04 am »

And... About every 12-18 months, I end up swapping out a fairly major system component (motherboard or video card) and then I end up re-imaging from scratch.   ::)

For that purpose, I keep a "Base Intel" and "Base AMD" image on hand, which includes only the OS and chipset drivers (with a few utilities I ALWAYS include in every install).  It saves a little time over doing the Windows Install manually.  My base AMD image is less useful though because sometimes I end up with an Nvidia chipset and sometimes an AMD one.
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rjm

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 10:58:59 am »

Fully agree with the recommendation to create regular system images. I always create one before doing anything risky, like installing a Windows service pack. I also create a new image when the changes I have made since the last image build up to the point that I would not want to have to repeat them. In addition to quick rollback discussed above, an image is worth its weight in gold when your hard drive fails. You can be back in business with a new drive in less than 30 minutes. Note that you should always store an image on a different physical drive for obvious reasons. I also agree that Acronis is the best imaging tool.

I frequently see the debate about regular format/rebuild. My view is that reformatting is not required (unless you get a really nasty virus). I believe that disc fragmentation and registry crud have very little impact on performance. What does kill performance is the gradual buildup of processes that launch at startup. These processes are frequently not required and consume memory and cpu cycles. The very best tool for reviewing processes and permanently killing those that are not required is The Ultimate Troubleshooter.
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Gl3nn

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 12:17:54 pm »

I haven't found a shortcut that works.  Essentially, for my major apps, I screen capture (using SnagIt) every setup or option screen and paste them in a spreadsheet.  Then I work from that after the re-image or re-format.  Still a pain, still misses some things, but it works to about a 99% level.  Definitely don't want to do this more than once in a while though!
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marko

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 01:09:19 pm »

Acronis True Image here.
Once windows is installed and configured, drivers and core software installed and configured, create a disk image.

I'm not keen on the hidden 'acronis secure zone' partition, nor am I keen on incremental disk imaging. I make one full image file and archive it.

After that, I use Genie Backup Manager to keep changing software configs regularly backed up. I like Genie because it allows for backing up/restore of selected registry keys, and you can use Genie to back itself up, so, after rolling back, it's a simple thing to get all the configs back in place.

If you've done that many times, maybe you're ready for my magic bullet: Don't ever, under any circumstances, reformat and reinstall. It's always faster to fix whatever is wrong. And by doing so, you learn how to stay out of trouble and keep your system running well.
While I agree that if you have problems, it's better to understand why, and to fix the problem before resorting to "format C: /u", there are times when formatting is the only sensible option. Recognising those times is the key, I guess.
All too often, the advice to "format and reinstall" is casually dished out as a solution to minor problems. Sure, it'll fix things up, in much the same way as hitting a nut with a sledgehammer will certainly crack that said nut, but, is that really necessary? Also, if you don't understand the why's and wherefore's regarding your problem, surely it's just a matter of time before it reappears, and then what? Hey-ho, format. Again.
For problem solving, a format should be the final consideration, if you're problem free, and you're pc usage dictates it, a format should be part of routine maintenance.

I typically roll back to my Acronis disk image every 18 - 24 months, and yes, it does, without doubt, make a difference.
Our other PC though, generally used only for browsing and email and playing music, and very little else, is running absolutely fine on the same windows installation for at least six years now.

Which, for me, indicates that these kind of decisions depend as much on the individual and their pc usage as much as it does their choice of OS.

-marko.

glynor

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 01:34:07 pm »

My view is that reformatting is not required (unless you get a really nasty virus). I believe that disc fragmentation and registry crud have very little impact on performance. What does kill performance is the gradual buildup of processes that launch at startup. These processes are frequently not required and consume memory and cpu cycles. The very best tool for reviewing processes and permanently killing those that are not required is The Ultimate Troubleshooter.

I really think it depends on how you use your machine.  My "family" PC (which my wife and I use to do the bills, check email, work on office documents, etc) stays stable and I never re-image it unless something catastrophic happens.  My video editing workstation is a MacPro, so doesn't have that issue.

My "office" PC (which is in my basement workshop, next to a pile of partially assembled PC parts and whatnot) though, where I'm almost constantly installing and uninstalling something or another, swapping hardware with reckless abandon, and generally making a mess of things... Definitely can get fixed by some careful maintenance.
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rjm

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 03:16:48 pm »

I really think it depends on how you use your machine.  My "family" PC (which my wife and I use to do the bills, check email, work on office documents, etc) stays stable and I never re-image it unless something catastrophic happens.  My video editing workstation is a MacPro, so doesn't have that issue.

My "office" PC (which is in my basement workshop, next to a pile of partially assembled PC parts and whatnot) though, where I'm almost constantly installing and uninstalling something or another, swapping hardware with reckless abandon, and generally making a mess of things... Definitely can get fixed by some careful maintenance.
I agree. A stable PC with little new software being installed should never need to be rebuilt. A PC that has frequent changes may need a periodic cleanup. My point is that it does not matter how much crap is on a system. I think it only matters if the crap is running. Which is why I tend to focus on startup processes since everything else does not usually run unless I tell it to.
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benn600

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 03:24:50 pm »

How do you handle all the personal configurations, like in Office (if you use that) or Firefox (add-ins) or MC (!) which accrue over time?  How do you retain or recreate those?  That's what I find to be the most work.

Holy COW!  What have I started?  I was getting ready to complain that yet again my post got broken out into a new thread but I see there are many posts!

I do not use an image program because the whole point of a reformat is to seek out the latest version of everything:

Start with a slipstreamed copy of XP -- a clean way to avoid what updates alter one by one.  Then, get the latest driver for every piece of hardware.  And the latest of every piece of software.

As far as restoring all the settings, I can easily restore serveral apps: Firefox and Thunderbird.  These simply refer to your profile which stores 99% of everything you need.  This is one reason why I have begged J River to switch to their technique and remove all their registry reliance.  Yes, I can run a .reg file and get the key stuff, but then if I change something on one system, it's not changed on all my referring systems.

Reformatting all our systems is a big job but so well worth it.  Another big advantage is that it forces me to finish those lingering projects--folders of files I've been meaning to go through and archive to DVD or categorize on the server--clean up the C: drives which can, from time to time, get filled with data I need to burn to DVD.
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rick.ca

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 04:05:08 pm »

Wow. The primary intent of my first post was to suggest there may be a 5-minute, painless solution to Crescent's problem. Otherwise, it seems no one noticed my tongue in my cheek. I think glynor and marko's last messages above are finally getting to the point—it depends on the user and the circumstances. I use my own extreme position (as evidenced by the fact absolutely no one agrees with me ;D ) to illustrate that point, not to advocate my preference.

But just so I don't seem totally insane... I have lots of backup, and it's fully automated. That includes a clone of my OS/programs partition and incremental/versioned backup of all data and configuration files. So I always have what I need to roll back and get out of trouble, and what I need to return from a nuke and pave. I do what I can to keep my system "optimized." Some are things others are not inclined to do and/or would rather do by nuke and pave. For some things (e.g., keeping the registry clean), my method is not nearly as "effective"—but, for me, good enough. Other things (e.g., defragging the paging file) can be done regularly without a nuke and pave.

Quote
Still have the issue of all the customizations in the various software packages that creep over time.  I mean, I'm constantly twiddling with settings in my main software packages.  I just can't keep notes on what I do when so that I can re-create them when I re-initialize with a 6-month old image. That's the big issue for me.

This is the issue for me as well. I think I understand the merits of all the various methods of nuke and pave. But I don't see any that provide a practical means of restoring a large number of applications, many of which are highly configured. When I say "practical," I understand this is largely a matter of personal preference and perception. I'm the type who needs to keep my system configured and maintained exactly the way I want it—at all times. If anything goes wrong, the state I want to get back to is that of a few minutes or, at most, a few days ago. At the other extreme, some would rather not do any of the fiddling necessary for that, and are perfectly happy to let their system degrade until there's no option but to nuke and pave.

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rick.ca

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 04:14:26 pm »

Quote
Holy COW!  What have I started?

BTW, PC's are better than Mac's, Windows is better than Linux, cats are better than dogs, and George Bush is my hero. ;D
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benn600

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 08:06:57 pm »

Oh yes, and FLAC is the best lossless compression format.

I've got to say that this was really a lot of fun.  From time to time it's nice to have a rant and let us all cry a bit.  It is always funny to see posts where not one other user agrees.  Oh the joys!
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Gl3nn

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 08:36:22 pm »

I agree. A stable PC with little new software being installed should never need to be rebuilt.

And then there's TurboTax!   :o
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xen-uno

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 11:15:35 pm »

Nuke & pave here ... I like to get personal with my computer. The registry is the killer. It gets bloated, fragmented, and error prone over time despite program uninstalls ... and the jury's still out on the cleaner programs AFAIK. Interim measures between N&P's is disk defrag, disk cleanup (my way, not MS's), and unhiding & deleting win update subs under the win root (show hidden files and directories and you'll see a ton after enough time).

rjm

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Re: Nuke and pave -- starting over with Windows
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2009, 02:18:17 am »

I think registry cleaning is like banning plastic grocery bags. It makes you feel good but does nothing useful. Killing unnecessary processes is like walking instead of driving to the grocery store. Its real. :)
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