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Author Topic: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook  (Read 2912 times)

glynor

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Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« on: February 03, 2009, 05:39:09 pm »

I've been running Windows 7 Beta in a dual-boot configuration on my "office" PC (the PC at home that I use for doing computer work, some gaming, and application testing, among other things) since the weekend it came out.  While I installed MC13 on it, I don't actually end up using it down there very heavily, just an occasional playlist of music running in the background.  I use MC primarily on my HTPC and on my Macbook Pro in Bootcamp.

After a few weeks of playing with the Windows 7 Beta, and liking what I see, I decided this past week to install it on my Macbook Pro.  This provided two benefits: (1) I'll get to actually use it more often for real, everyday work and (2) I'll finally get access to that last remaining GB of RAM on my 4GB Macbook when inside Windows (I had been running Windows XP Pro 32-bit on it before).  Installing it turned out to be more challenging than I had initially hoped.  I ran into a whole host of issues, mostly due to my setup being more complicated than anyone should reasonably need, and due to the fact that my Macbook Pro was still running OSX Tiger (10.4) instead of Leopard (10.5).

So, I'm done, and I've been using Windows 7 on my Macbook for a few days now.  I've actually spent quite a bit of time using it with MC13, and I thought some people might be curious about how everything has gone.  Much of this will be quite specific to my particular install, but if you're curious you can come along for the ride.  Before I get started though, I say this...

I am extremely pleased.  The Windows 7 Beta is very, very nice.  It is not perfect, as some bloggers online would have you believe (see the "release it now" campaign).  It still feels decidedly "beta" to me in a few regards, particularly when it comes to application installation compatibility, but it feels like a very, very late beta (or Release Candidate) of a very robust and thoroughly vetted OS.  The issues I've hit don't have much to do with Windows itself, but more to do with other application providers not updating their apps to work yet.  Aside from those issues, though, using the OS is fantastic.  It is extremely snappy and fluid.  Performance is vastly improved on this machine over the Windows XP Bootcamp partition.  I saw less of a performance improvement on my other test machine at home, but it is certainly no slower than XP on that machine.  The same most certainly could NOT be said of Vista, even with SP1.

So anyway, in my quest to triple-boot OSX, Windows 7, and XP, I settled on this plan:

1. Upgrade the OSX OS to Leopard, which enables "official" Bootcamp support, and gives me access to the vastly improved Disk Utility application that allows on-the-fly disk repartitioning (though, understandably, not for the boot disk, much to my dismay).

2. Reduce my existing Windows XP Bootcamp Partition down to a bare minimum of installed utilities.  I decided, late in the game, to hang onto my old Windows XP partition just in case and to triple-boot the system.  However, I had decided to move most of my "windows life" over to Windows 7, so I clearly didn't need a full installation of Adobe Creative Suite on the XP partition, and I wanted to get the partition size down as small as possible.  I ended up squeezing it down to just under 25GB without too much trouble, which allowed me to reduce the XP Partition size down to 50GB.

3. Swap out the laptop's existing 5200 rpm 320GB drive for a shiny new Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB 2.5" laptop drive.  The 500GB Caviar Blue has higher aerial density on the disk platters than the older 320GB drives, so even though it is only a 5200 rpm drive, it achieves nearly the same read/write performance as the WD Caviar Black 320GB 7200 rpm drive.  Plus, that gives me gobs more free space (important when partitioning the drive up for triple-booting) and keeps the power consumption down (those Caviar Black 7200 rpm drives eat up the battery very quickly).

4. Migrate the existing system over to the new 500GB drive, install it, and get everything working.

5. Repartition the drive and install Windows 7 64-bit, and then get all my applications installed on it and set up.

After a few hitches and false starts, I finally got through step 5 (mostly) on Saturday.  Since then, I've been able to play with the system.  I did a lot of library maintenance on my master MC library on Sunday, and have just generally beaten on it since then.

As I said above.... I'm extremely pleased.  Performance on my Macbook Pro is night-and-day compared to Windows XP, for everything from bootup times, to application load times, hardware compatibility, to task switching performance.  Not everything is perfect (Network file copies are still slower than XP, and game performance is degraded a bit), but these are minor issues compared to the night-and-day performance differences between XP and pre-SP1-Vista (SP1 does make Vista better behaved, but it still isn't anywhere near the performance of Windows 7 vs. XP).

MC 13

MC13 runs extremely well on it.  Previously, I had some occasional performance issues with MC, even with some of the new optimizations, when running in Bootcamp on my Macbook in XP.  They are completely gone.  The only issue I've seen at all was that I had one complete lockup when importing a huge batch of files (and running Audio Analysis on them).  In this case, I don't actually think MC was crashed, but I couldn't get the UI to come back up from being minimized so (after waiting 15-20 minutes) I ended up killing the process in Process Explorer.  Other than that I've seen no issues at all, and the UI is noticeably "snappier" in Windows 7 than it is in XP.  I don't know why, but it is... I've tested by rebooting to XP and making sure I'm still using the same build.  My guess is that the Bootcamp Vista x64 drivers are a bit more robust than the XP ones, but who knows... Either way, it runs much smoother.

Using my network library over the Wireless has been smooth-as-silk, and (incidentally) my wireless reception is somehow vastly improved over XP (3-4 "bars" where I used to have 1).  Playback has been flawless, and using CCCP and other filters has worked without issue.  In fact, one of the only applications I had trouble getting installed was Apple Quicktime, but more on that in a bit.

Taskbar and Explorer:

For non-MC related things, I'm also quite pleased.  I really like the new Windows Explorer interface (and, BTW, I hated the Vista changes).  The new "libraries" feature is very slick.  It almost makes using Windows Explorer to find things not painful, which is quite a task!  I love the fact that even on a triple-boot system (with three different "my documents" folders and three different "shared documents" folders) there is one place I can go and easily see ALL of my documents without having to worry much about it.  I suspect this will get even better if you have a whole network full of Windows 7 machines set up in a homegroup, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I love the new "steal the good from the OSX dock without the bad" Taskbar.  Btw, on this point, I really think Paul Thurrott is far too married to the "old way" of task management.  Many of his statements of "fact" about the right way vs. the "wrong" way are based on UI decisions that were made long ago when computers had far fewer resources.  For example, if an application comes up nearly instantaneously, and doesn't consume many resources (of which I have in abundant supply) when running in the background, then why do I need to care very much about whether an application is "open" or "closed".  Many of his arguments against the new task bar seem rooted in this "old way is better because it is better" mentality.  For example, he states this in one of his anti-new-taskbar rants:

Quote
The taskbar has been simplified into a single panel that does multiple things. So it's simpler. But comingling shortcuts with window buttons is confusing. And visually, it can get pretty hectic. Explain to me what's going on here, for example:



It's not obvious. Some of those icons are "shortcuts"--i.e. icons representing applications that are not, in fact, open (i.e. "running"). Some of them, however, are buttons representing open windows. And some of those even have multiple windows, even though they're represented by a single icon. Simple? Sure. Obvious? No.

He never explains why you need to care, or why it is confusing.  To me, it isn't confusing at all, and is far less confusing than the old Vista or XP style way.  Who cares what applications are running vs. which aren't!!  Isn't it inherently more confusing to have an array of identically named (and looking) icons in the Task Bar that sometimes group together and sometimes don't?  The new way gives nice visual previews of the open windows, and combined with the Aero Peek feature, makes switching applications a breeze (and often you don't even need to "switch" applications as often as you used to).

Either way, I strongly recommend that you at least try it the new way for a while.  I think you might like it.  I was never a huge fan of the OSX dock.  There are things I like about it, but there are things I disliked strongly.  It is quite amazing, but I'd say Microsoft really got it almost completely right with this one.  My one complaint, which has been echoed elsewhere, would be that when you have multiple windows open of a particular application, it should not FORCE you to choose one of the thumbnails.  If you click on the icon in the Task Bar, it should bring ALL of the windows for that app to the front, if you only want one, then you should use the point-at-the icon-and-click-on-a-thumnail method.  This one simple change would make it just about perfect IMHO.

I strongly recommend that you give it a solid try the new way before instinctively switching back to the old-style taskbar.  I remember way back when the "new style" Start Menu was introduced with Windows XP... It took me years of turning it off before I bothered to give it a solid try, and when I did, I ended up liking it a lot.  I think this is one of those things.  If you're very married to the "Windows Way" of doing things (like Paul) then it will feel very, very different.  But different isn't always bad.  It is just different.

Either way, Microsoft get's a "good job" from me on both Windows Explorer and the new Taskbar.  Both are spectacular improvements over both XP and Vista's implementations.



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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 05:46:44 pm »

Application Compatibility:

Overall it has been very, very good.  Nothing like the XP-Vista switch.  That said, this is at-root because not that much has changed since Vista under the hood.  Windows 7 is, at its core, Vista v2.0.  The changes are all about spit and polish, optimization and speed, and compatibility and ease-of-use.  That's not a bad thing though because that's really what Vista needed, IMHO (especially after SP1 fixed most, but not all, of the show-stopper issues with it).

Some applications that worked flawlessly:
Mozilla Firefox, MC13, CCCP, BeyondTV Link, AVG 8.0, Office 2007, True Crypt, Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign, Thunderbird, TightVNC, 7-Zip, InfraRecorder, VirtualCloneDrive, Crimson Editor.

That said, not all was good in Windows 7 land... I did run into a few isolated problems.  Some of them were related to Windows 7 itself, some were specific to the 64-bit version I chose, and some were Apple's fault.

Some applications that didn't work very well at all:  Nero 6, ZipGenius, Daemon Tools.

Some applications that work fine, but had problems during the install process: MacDrive 7, Adobe Acrobat 8 Pro (part of CS3), iTunes 8.02, Quicktime Player, and BootCamp x64 Drivers (this was due to Apple's weird non-support of my particular Macbook in x64 mode, not due to any problem with the drivers themselves).

For all of these, I was able to get them going after some level of frustration.  For iTunes/Quicktime, it ended up taking 3 separate installation "tries".  I have no idea why the first two stalled out and the third worked.  I read that other people had similar experiences online, though it is apparently limited to the x64 version of iTunes and/or Quicktime.  I just kept killing the install process, rebooting, and trying again and it finally made it all the way through on the 3rd try.

MacDrive 7 was the worst of the bunch.  The installer apparently checks what version of Windows you are running and just up-and-refuses to install on Windows 7.  Luckily, some kind soul figured out how to modify the MSI file to trick this version check, and if you download the hacked version of the installer, it works just fine.  The only issue I've encountered here is that it sometimes dismounts and then doesn't re-mount my OSX partition when I sleep the machine (close the lid) and wake it back up.  Rebooting or logoff/in fixes it though.

Acrobat 8 Pro (part of the CS3 install) borked up during the install process and couldn't find some DLL file it needed.  I had to manually extract the DLL in question to my desktop and point it to it (and the error message indicated that the DLL is located on the "Vista Install Disc" even though it was on the CS3 installer).  I saw online other reports of CS3-installation issues, but I didn't have any other problems.  Once this was installed and all updates were run on it, it worked fine for me.

Nero 6 doesn't work at all on Windows 7.  Not shocking since it also doesn't work on Vista.  I ended up abandoning it for InfraRecorder which is free, open source, and much lighter-weight anyway.  I'm very pleased with InfraRecorder and I don't miss Nero at all.

ZipGenius seemed to install okay, but crashed regularly and the context menus didn't work at all.  I ended up abandoning it for 7-Zip which is also free and is more regularly updated.  It works fine.

Daemon Tools also doesn't work at all currently.  Right now the developers are refusing to update it to get it running due to Window's "beta" status.  Who knows why.  Either way, VirtualCloneDrive is free, doesn't nag you, and does the same thing.  I think I might end up liking it even better than Daemon Tools.  It is from the AnyDVD and CloneDVD people, and it has served me well so far.
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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 06:21:25 pm »

I know some people on here tried out the Windows 7 beta.  I'd be interested to hear if my experiences were unique, or if others felt the same.  Did you have any issues with MC13 at all?  Migrating settings and data?  (BTW.... Creating a REG file of the HKey_Current_User/Software/J River/ registry key on Windows XP and then "installing" it on my Windows 7 install worked just fine for migrating MC13 settings over to the new machine.)

Lastly, I thought I'd mention that if you want to try out Windows 7, the Beta program is still available as long as you start downloading before Feb 10.

Installing Windows 7 in a dual-boot configuration on a standard PC couldn't be easier.  All you need is an empty partition or drive to install it on.  Throw in the install DVD (burned from the downloaded ISO file), and start the PC up to the optical drive.  It will pre-select the option to "upgrade" (really replace) your existing Windows install, but you can easily select the option to install to a different partition or drive.  Once installed, it then gives you the standard Windows boot loader "choose which version of windows to load" option at boot-time.  More info here: http://lifehacker.com/5126781/how-to-dual-boot-windows-7-with-xp-or-vista
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JimH

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 06:26:04 pm »

Whew!!  Thanks, glynor!
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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 06:56:23 pm »

I thought I'd also mention that if you try this and you happen to hit a problem booting to the Windows 7 Install disc with a "Select CD-ROM Boot Type" error, you'll want to read this:

http://jowie.com/blog/post/2008/02/24/Select-CD-ROM-Boot-Type-prompt-while-trying-to-boot-from-Vista-x64-DVD-burnt-from-iso-file.aspx

I hit this error on my Macbook but not on my other PC (with the same disc).  Apparently some systems (including Macs but not exclusive to them) have the issue and some don't.  I burnt my initial disc with Nero 6.  It doesn't have the referenced option that ImgBurn does (I'm now using ImgBurn and InfraRecorder after this experience) but it still didn't work.  Either way, those instructions and a re-burn solved the issue.
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Alex B

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 04:13:37 pm »

Thanks glynor.  :)

I have downloaded both W7 installers, but I have not had time to start playing with them.

The jowie.com link didn't work for me (the whole site seems to be down), but I think this link leads to the same article:

http://blog.nkadesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/Select-CD-ROM-Boot-Type-prompt-while-trying-to-boot-from-Vista-x64-DVD-burnt-from-iso-file.aspx.htm

What exactly was the problem with Nero 6? Isn't it writing exactly what MS put in the package? Should I expect a disc that is burned with Nero 6 or 7 work on a standard PC?

I browsed quickly through the linked page. If I understood correctly, the file naming options of the ISO image need to be modified to make it bootable on some systems.
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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 04:42:37 pm »

Yeah... Apparently Microsoft's EFI Boot sector implementation doesn't handle the entire ISO 9660 spec properly (which is the standard used to create and burn "iso" files).  It implements most of it, but the filenaming convention is broken.  This is the relevant section from the Microsoft KB Article:

Quote
The ISO 9660 specification instructs that a name for a file record should consist of the file name that is followed by the file version. Also, the specification instructs that you must separate the file name and the file version by a semicolon. For example, the following file record is valid:
FileName;1

The Windows PE file system driver handles the file version as an option. However, the ETFSBOOT.COM program cannot locate the Setupldr.bin/Bootmgr file if you use a file version.

So, basically, the Microsoft EFI boot implementation is retarded.  Now, that said, the file versioning capability specified by the ISO standard is extremely rarely actually used for anything useful, so the filenames are almost always just appended with ";1".  Hopefully they'll fix this before the RTM version.

This does not affect anyone with an older system that still uses a standard BIOS (which is why my older office PC wasn't effected).  This would be only for very new, fancy, EFI booting machines, which includes all the Apple Intel Macs.  Dell has released a few EFI booting machines though, as has HP and a few other vendors.  However, since EFI isn't supported by Windows XP, it is fairly easy to tell.  If your machine is listed by the vendor as "Windows Vista Only" (XP incompatible) and the "BIOS" shell is wacky and unlike anything else you've seen, then you might have an EFI booting machine.  Otherwise you should be cool.

BTW... EFI is the "next generation" replacement for BIOS.  More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface
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gappie

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 05:00:40 pm »

wow, glynor.. that is a lot of typing. and agree. i also work on a dayly basis with it. have tested some recording/music software on it also, saw, fruityloops, biab. old or new, it works nice. only problem was installing the nokia software, what a suprise  ::) , but got that in the end, and zonealarm, just an other  ::), it did install but made networking imposible, and i do know how to use zonealarm there.  went over to kaspersky.

and yes. it looks nice and is (stil?) quick.

 :)
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ThoBar

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 04:27:38 am »

Just like to add that I'm using W7 on both of my main machines and loving it. Its like the next version of XP was meant to be. Also, fortunately most vista drivers work with it.

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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 10:21:40 am »

In case anyone is going to get their pants all in a twist over yesterday's bit of Slashdot sensationalism about Windows 7 DRM, here is the real story:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/oh-the-humanity-windows-7s-draconian-drm.ars
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glynor

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Re: Running MC13 on Windows 7 x64 on a Macbook
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 10:28:19 am »

BTW, while I'm at it...

It has been an even longer break-in period, and I'm still thrilled with Windows 7 on my Macbook.  I did discover that the Vista 64 bootcamp drivers don't work quite perfectly.  I've had a few power and sleep related problems.  Notably:

1. The system occasionally fails to wake up from sleep.  I can tell that the system is running (it makes noises and whatnot) but I can't get the screen to light up.  Forced rebooting fixes it.  This is fairly rare, and seems to be related to how long the system has been asleep, but I haven't done any empirical tests.

2. The Power controls aren't working quite right.  The system always thinks it is plugged in, even when it is running off of battery.  The battery works fine, and the taskbar tray battery meter works fine, but the system thinks it is plugged in and charging even when it isn't.  This means that when it gets to 3% power, it doesn't warn you.  And when it gets to 0%, it shuts off.  Annoying, but likely a driver issue.  I'm sure it'll be fixed when Apple releases a new version of Bootcamp that officially supports Windows 7.  I suspect that if I bothered to search around on the Apple Discussion Forums, I could find third-party drivers that would work, but I haven't bothered.
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