Topic: Importing APE files with long tags (Read 3253 times)

Vlad · « **on:** July 18, 2002, 06:01:34 am »

I'm importing APE files into MJ that were ripped and encoded by EAC. The APE encoder in EAC puts an ID3 V1 tag at the end of the file. It also puts an ID3 V2 tag at the front of the file followed by a chunk of empty space so it can be modified in the future without rewriting the whole file.

MJ only seems to look at the V1 tag at the end of the file. The V1 tags are limitted to just 30 characters for track name, artist and album. I get around this by later recataloguing using the "Fill Properties from File Name" function but this can easily wipe out manual changes. Why doesn't MJ decode the V2 tags?

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2002, 06:13:06 am »

APE files DO NOT SUPPORT ID3v2 tags. I'd decompress and recompress the files with Monkey's Audio to get rid of the those tags. The files may play, but that may not be true in future versions of MAC.

Media Jukebox 8.0 uses the latest APE code for tagging, which specifies the use of the APETag format.

And I'd recommend ripping with MJ in digital secure mode instead of with EAC. (but EAC is a great program too)

Take care.

-Matt (author of Monkey's Audio)

Vlad · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2002, 06:56:09 am »

Sorry Matt. I have read your posts on the subject. I just wanted to ensure a response from you.

As the author of Monkey's Audio, should you not ensure that products using your encoder are producing genuine APE files if they claim to. EAC is clearly not and that makes Monkey's Audio guilty by association. I know that EAC is not a commercial product but surely you have to protect your reputation and that of your product.

I would dearly love to do everything in MJ but cannot for the reasons that I have posted today.

Listening to: 'Summer Song' from 'Matt Bianco' by 'Matt Bianco' on Media Jukebox

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2002, 07:32:32 am »

Hey Vlad,

I think EAC lets you put ID3v2 tags on any file you want. It's up to the user to decide whether that's a good idea. Unfortunately, EAC isn't super mistake proof.

Try a "Convert" on your APE files to the newest version inside of Monkey's Audio. I think it'll strip the ID3v2 tag for you. (but preserve the APETag / ID3v1 tag)

Take care.

-Matt

scodan · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2002, 08:57:16 am »

Matt,

I did the same thing Vlad did (i.e. use EAC, and end up with V2 tags on my APE files).

You've advised two different things--do a decompress/compress, and do a "convert". Which is correct? (Not that it even matters, but a "convert" is easier. I'm also extremely anal, not to mention ULTRA-PARANOID that something horrible can happen to my "hard-earned" APE files!)

Thanks! Your advice is appreciated to the extreme.

KingSparta · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:05:21 am »

Matt

>> Media Jukebox 8.0 uses the latest APE code for tagging,
>> which specifies the use of the APETag format.
could that be made selectable to be saved to MP3 format?

Matt · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:23:20 am »

You've advised two different things--do a decompress/compress, and do a "convert". Which is correct? (Not that it even matters, but a "convert" is easier. I'm also extremely anal, not to mention ULTRA-PARANOID that something horrible can happen to my "hard-earned" APE files!)

I think the A and P in APE stand for anal and paranoid, so you're not alone.

And I think they'll both work. But just to be safe, make a spare copy of a file and test first. Also, tell Monkey's Audio to "Verify the creation of all APE files" and "Stop when encountering an error".

The only hitch with "Convert" is that it skips APE files with the same version / compression mode, so you'll need to use a newer version or else change compression modes.

And don't worry -- the ID3v2 tag won't hurt the audio data in the file, so you'll always be able to decompress with an older version, even if ID3v2 "support" does get dropped.

could that be made selectable to be saved to MP3 format?

Hehe... Jim thinks we should create a new tagging standard for MP3's to avoid the mess of ID3v1 and ID3v2. Not sure we wouldn't just be adding to the problem though...

scodan · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:53:07 am »

Matt,

A million thanks. One more question, if you don't mind. Do you recommend 3.96, or 3.97 RC1 (or does it even matter?).

Thanks! (1,000,001)

KingSparta · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2002, 10:08:23 am »

Matt

>> Jim thinks we should create a new tagging standard
>> for MP3's to avoid the mess of ID3v1 and ID3v2.
Are You Telling Me You Think JimH Is Wrong?

He Is A Smart Man (Brain 90% Larger Than Mine) You Should Not Be Ordering Him What To Do Or What Is Best.

PS: Do you think you might get id3.org to come up with a id3v1.2? i have sent them a e-mail to bring back offical support for longer tags in id3v1 tags.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2002, 10:52:46 am »

Do you recommend 3.96, or 3.97 RC1 (or does it even matter?).

Not much changed, but it's always best to use the latest version. (as long as it's been out for a few days)

Good luck

-Matt

scodan · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2002, 04:31:43 pm »

Matt,

You've probably dumped this thread already, but in case not...

Why do you recommend using MJ in Digital Secure mode, rather than EAC? Just because of this tag issue? Or are there other pitfalls as well (that you know of)?

I ask because I respect your advice, but I did rip my first ~150 CDs using EAC, and got quite used to it (apparently, not "used to it" enough not to screw up, however).

Pardon the simple-minded questions!

joe|PLS|mama · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2002, 05:40:00 pm »

In order for EAC to add APE tags automatically when you rip, you have to use the dll instead of the external exe.

--In EAC go to File/Compression Options (or F11)
--On the External Compression tab, uncheck 'Use External Program For Compression'
--On the Waveform tab, choose 'Monkey's Audio' from the list
--On the ID3 Tag tab, make sure all three options at the top are unchecked

I just tried it and the tags came out perfect.

scodan · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2002, 05:53:50 pm »

Thank you! I appreciate that advice. I'd been using the EXE, rather than the DLL. And I've been wondering why my tags were screwy...

Funny thing, though. I followed your instructions to the letter, but I found that the APE files I create with EAC are all exactly 148 bytes smaller than the APE files created with MJ. [EDIT: By this, of course, I am referring to comparing two copies of the SAME song! That is, burn a song with MJ, then the same song with EAC, and the latter .APE will be 148 bytes smaller.] I can't see any difference on the tags, but it seems the difference is tag related.

In any event, I'm sticking with EAC. There are a bunch of things I dislike about MJ's "rip" functionality.

Thanks again, "joe|PLS|mama"!

Vlad · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2002, 06:20:40 pm »

That's a big ditto forom me too. Thank you joe|PLS|mama!

I'll Try that when I get home tonight (and keep my fingers crossed for "unintended consequences").

scodan · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2002, 06:14:25 am »

OK, idiot question time. I've run the "Convert". How can I tell if I have IDv1 and/or IDv2 tags? How did Vlad know he had IDv2 tags in front of his APE files?

Also, I can see that MJ is looking at and modifying a different tag than Monkey's Audio is. If I use the Monkey's Audio shell extension to view an APE file's tag, it sometimes differs from what I see in MJ. What is MJ looking at, IDv1? Why is this such an incredible P.I.T.A.?

KingSparta · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2002, 06:17:52 am »

scodan

select file(s)
right click
properties
select tab "Format"

scodan · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2002, 06:24:10 am »

Thanks, but I'm still confused on one point.

An example: An APE file I have, when viewed using Monkey's Audio "file info", shows an album name of "Supposed Former Infatuation .." (part of the name is cut off, which is another thing that absolutely drives me nuts.)

If I edit and correct that album name, using Monkey's Audio file info, it will from that point on display "Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie" in Monkey's Audio file info.

However, even before editing that tag, MJ displays "Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie" in its own file properties section. Obviously, MJ and MAC are looking at and editing two different tags. What are they, please?

Vlad · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2002, 06:25:48 am »

Hi scodan,

I knew where they were because I had a look at them with Notepad.

As for the rest of your question, you've completely lost me as I'm feeling a bit like Zevele felt the other night.

Listening to: 'Habanera from Carmen (G. Bizet)' from 'Filippa Giordano' by 'Filippa Giordano' on Media Jukebox

KingSparta · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2002, 06:27:38 am »

Not sure i understand but

1. you can extend the window and move the devider left and right.
2. id3v1 tags are limited to 30 chrs (28chrs for comment with id3v1.1)

scodan · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2002, 07:07:19 am »

I'm still confused and annoyed...

When I referred to "Monkey's Audio file info", I meant the Explorer shell extension. If you have MAC installed, and opt to also install the shell extension, you can right click an APE file in Explorer and select "File info (MAC)". This will display the tag (whatever tag MAC looks at, that is). And what I'm seeing is plainly telling me that MAC is looking at and editing different tags than MJ is.

In any event, it looks like I wasted 16 hours and a lot of aggravation and worry doing the "convert" in MAC. The APE files I created with EAC each have this in the very beginning of the file, when viewed with a hex editor:

RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data

...while the MJ-created APE files do not. I have no idea what that junk is, but clearly something was put there by EAC which was not removed by the conversion.

Thanks to all who replied. I really do appreciate it. I am using a hex editor to try to figure this out.

Vlad · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2002, 07:24:12 am »

scodan,

if you've got this problem, then it's my problem too. I haven't run a conversion yet, but I've reconfigured EAC to use the DLL. The APE files it produces now have "MAC" at the beginning and an APETAG stuck on the end. But, I've still got about 40Gig with ID3 tags stuck on the front.

Matt, can you help out here.

scodan · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2002, 07:38:19 am »

The confusion doubles...

All of my files now indeed have "MAC" at the very beginning, and "APETAGEX" towards the very bottom, but:

...The files I created with EAC, the Monkey's Audio EXE, and IDv2 enabled, then did a "convert" on, have the "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" appearing shortly after "MAC" at the beginning of the file.

...The files I subsequently created with EAC, the Monkey's Audio DLL, and IDv2 disabled do not have "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" anywhere in the file.

...The few files I created with MJ (as an "experiment") have "MAC" at the beginning, but also do not have "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" anywhere in the file.

So... I guess where I'm at is that maybe the conversion worked, but I'm not sure because I am clueless. What is this "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" garbage? Tortured minds want to know.

Vlad · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2002, 08:19:24 am »

scodan,

I think I understand what's going on. There aren't 2 sets of tags being updated. When you are looking at the APE File Info via Explorer, you are seeing the actual tags on the file. MJ, on the other hand, shows you it's record of the tags according fo it's database (library). Remember, its dealing with all sorts of files, some of which don't support tags. That's what Importing is all about.

I just ran a test. I updated some APE Info through Explorer and confirmed that it didn't show up on the properties in MJ. I then deleted the index entry from MJ and re-imported the file. Now it showed the correct data.

So, as they say, it's not a bug it's a feature.

I haven't been able to find a function to synchronize the data, in either direction. That'd be nice.

scodan · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2002, 08:30:53 am »

Cool, thanks for that insight. That helps quite a bit. I reproduced your test, and I see what you mean. I'm still unsure which is my butt and which is the proverbial hole in the ground...

I'm still wondering about that "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" junk. It may not matter, but I want to know either way.

Want to hear something funny? During the course of all this screwing around, I re-updated all of my tags from the file names in MJ. I blew away all of my genre and year info. We're talking about over 150 albums here. Oh boy, I get to manually update all of them.

When do I get to just LISTEN to my music?

Vlad · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2002, 08:44:08 am »

scodan,

I'm really impressed you've managed to keep your sense of homour. That story made ME want to cry.

I've been ripping solidly for about a week now. I'm up to 187 disks. Only 25Gig of storage left so it won't be much longer. It's just a prototype to iron out the bugs. I've done very little work with the library yet. Recording Operas and Composers for my operatic stuff. Composers, Conductors and Orchestras for the orchestral...

2:40am and SO much to look forward to. But then again, i'm...
Listening to: 'Only a woman's heart' from 'The Collection' by 'Mary Black' on Media Jukebox

scodan · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2002, 08:56:10 am »

Vlad,

Are you sticking with EAC, and using the DLL? That happens to be what I've chosen to do (for better or worse). I've noticed that the DLL behaves entirely differently than the EXE; I think it necessarily rips and encodes simultaneously, which is an option in MJ. I'm not convinced that the EXE wouldn't work fine, as long as the IDv1.1 and IDv2 options were deselected in EAC.

I have many more discs to go, and if I screwed them all up somehow, I'd probably end up swinging from a rope!

Vlad · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2002, 09:12:47 am »

Yep, that's what I'm doing and that's exactly what I've noticed too. The ripping/encoding with the DLL is a bit faster overall than with the external encoder.

I don't know what the critical resourse is. It's not CPU. But, there's something about the process that caused the program doing it to be quite unresponsive and fragile. Whith EAC, I don't need anything from it while it's ripping so it doesn't matter. If I were using MJ I'd want to listen and do library maintenace at the same time. It's just not stable under that sort of load (I don't know why). The way I'm doing it, I can do it all without incident.

Good luck with your task.

scodan · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2002, 10:42:25 am »

In case (but not as if) anyone cares, I found out why the "RIFFD...WAVEfmt ....................data" appears in some of my files. They're WAV headers (probably not much of a shock, what with "WAVE" appearing in the text).

I found this out after beginning this thread in the Monkey's Audio forums.

I think that if you use EAC with the Monkey's Audio EXE, the WAV header gets put in (i.e. the "Format Flag" will not have MONKEY_FLAG_WAV_NOT_STORED = 32 figured in). Maybe a more accurate way to state it is "the WAV header gets left in".

But if you use EAC with the Monkey's Audio DLL, the WAV header is left out (i.e. the "Format Flag" will have MONKEY_FLAG_WAV_NOT_STORED = 32 figured in).

This is probably because the Monkey's Audio DLL doesn't use an intermediate WAV file. I guess it doesn't matter either way, but one less mystery in my life is a good thing. I hope this helps someone.

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Author Topic: Importing APE files with long tags (Read 3253 times)

Vlad

Vlad

scodan

scodan

joe|PLS|mama

Vlad

Vlad

Vlad

Vlad

Vlad

Vlad