More > Media Center 14 (Development Ended)
Replaygain Values for FLAC files
vagskal:
First, I just wanted to say that I am experiencing the same as the OP (using flac files ripped with dBpoweramp and using that software to apply replay gain, including album gain, at ripping). Nothing is showing up in the MC fields for replay gain and album gain although the tags are there.
Then, I want to ask a question regarding replay gain, including album gain, applied with Foobar2000 on mp3 files (yes, I know it is a bit off topic, but I hope someone will answer anyway). The question is: How does MC interpret and use replay gain tags in mp3 files? The replay gain and album gain fields in MC are filled with values, but those values are generally considerably higher (or should it be "lower" since the loudness war of the record industry seems to almost always produce rather high negative replay gain values?) than the values in the tags. Should the fields in MC not reflect what is in the tags, or is MC using some intelligence of its own that I am not aware of?
I am a new user so I may have overlooked something. I also very seldom use MC for playback, but when I do I get the clear impression that playback of at least mp3 files is generally noticeable lower than when I use other software, using replay gain, for playback (always on 100% volume set in the software).
This is what is in a sample file (as shown in MC):
MPEG-1 Layer 3
256 Kbit CBR
44.1 Khz Joint stereo
Copyrighted: No
Original: Yes
Protected by CRC: No
Encoder: LAME
Gapless: Yes (576 start, 2240 end)
ID3v1 Tag: none
ID3v2.3 Tag: (107248 bytes)
TALB (Album): Brand New Day
TPE1 (Artist): Sting
TCOM (Composer): Sting
TPOS (Disc #): 1/1
TCON (Genre): Rock
TIT2 (Name): After The Rain Has Fallen
TRCK (Track #): 4/10
TYER (Year): 2000
TXXX (replaygain_album_g..): -6.45 dB
TXXX (replaygain_album_p..): 1.103976
TXXX (replaygain_track_g..): -6.74 dB
TXXX (replaygain_track_p..): 1.065895
APIC (Image File) (Cover): <too large to display>
In MC (I use MC 13) the Album Gain field shows "-10,23" and the Replay Gain field shows "-12,74".
I have opened the actual mp3 file with WordPad and searched for those values (-10.23 and -12.74 as well as -10,23 and -12,74 with commas as, for some reason, displayed in MC) but they simple do not exist in the file, as read by WordPad.
(I would have liked to attach actual screen shots but I could not figure out how to do this in the forums. Since bob in his post suggested attaching a file, I am pretty sure I am missing something obvious...)
Alex B:
The reference level inside MC is the original 83 dB. AFAIK, JRiver's Media Jukebox was the first player program with a built-in replay gain scanner and playback correction system over seven and half years ago. More info about the original Replay Gain standard: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/
Some other programs have later changed to use the 89 dB reference level. However, you don't need to worry. The MP3 tagger component in MC corrects the difference automatically (as you found out) and the system works correctly. If you want the files play louder you can set MC to use a fixed adjustment (+6 dB would make it identical with the players that use 89 dB).
The FLAC problem will be fixed in a similar way soon, but probably only in MC14.
vagskal:
--- Quote from: Alex B on August 04, 2009, 02:13:12 pm ---The reference level inside MC is the original 83 dB. AFAIK, JRiver's Media Jukebox was the first player program with a built-in replay gain scanner and playback correction system over seven and half years ago. More info about the original Replay Gain standard: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/
Some other programs have later changed to use the 89 dB reference level. However, you don't need to worry. The MP3 tagger component in MC corrects the difference automatically (as you found out) and the system works correctly. If you want the files play louder you can set MC to use a fixed adjustment (+6 dB would make it identical with the players that use 89 dB).
The FLAC problem will be fixed in a similar way soon, but probably only in MC14.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for the explanation, which cleared up the mystery for me, and a +6 dB fixed adjustment made the music sound the same as with other playback software. It is also good to hear that the flac issue will be addressed.
Will the set +6 dB adjustment only affect playback in MC? If I should use MC to apply RPG to new files, or reapply RPG, would the target level still be 83 dB when MC calculates the values and writes them to the tags in the files? If so, I suspect that other software will play those files at a lower volume than the "old" files with a target level of 89 dB.
Fritz_Gerlich:
This is just a note from a potential customer that has chosen not to use MC.
100% standardized replaygain support is a deal-breaker for me, and I imagine a lot of other FLAC users as well. It might be a good idea to bring your approach in line with all the other replaygain programs because most people don't want to mess with their tags once they have their library set up. Plug and play is key to sales, cause if someone likes to putz they'll already be happily using foobar.
Alex B:
--- Quote from: vagskal on August 05, 2009, 04:08:14 am ---Will the set +6 dB adjustment only affect playback in MC? If I should use MC to apply RPG to new files, or reapply RPG, would the target level still be 83 dB when MC calculates the values and writes them to the tags in the files? If so, I suspect that other software will play those files at a lower volume than the "old" files with a target level of 89 dB.
--- End quote ---
It is a playback DSP setting. Also other Replay Gain aware programs have a similar setting that can be used for adjusting the master gain. It doesn't change the values in the library or in the file tags.
The tags are separate from the DSP settings and the reference level correction is automatic in both directions in order to make the tags fully compatible.
Regarding the FLAC format:
A tested and bug fixed implemention willl be included in the next public MC14 build. The current build, 14.0.46, has some minor issues with the replay gain tag format. Although the written tags seem to work correctly with other common programs it might be best to not write tags until the next build is out.
--- Quote from: Fritz_Gerlich on August 12, 2009, 11:37:12 pm ---100% standardized replaygain support is a deal-breaker for me, and I imagine a lot of other FLAC users as well. It might be a good idea to bring your approach in line with all the other replaygain programs because most people don't want to mess with their tags once they have their library set up. Plug and play is key to sales, cause if someone likes to putz they'll already be happily using foobar.
--- End quote ---
The new implementation including tag writing is fully compatible.
There is slight difference in the album gain system because MC calculates the album gain values dynamically from the track gain values and doesn't need the album gain file tags, but MC doesn't change or remove existing album gain values.
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