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[tdipower]

I feel that I need to "whine" a bit about the upgrade from 13 to 14.....

First of all, the MC14 have become great and have most of the features I have been missing sinse starting on MC 12.

BUT what I don't like is the way you have been acting with the pricing of the product. On the upgrade from 12 to 13 there was a upgradeoffer at the time you announced the new features in v13. And also, for those that did not upgrad then, an upgradeoffer when stable was released.

Now on 13-14 you came with an offer, saying that the new v14 would be great! Why it would be great you wouldn't or couldn't say anything about. I have also been asking for a 2 way library servere sinse v.12 and not even got an answer from "support". So why would I do an upgrade to something that most likely would be almost the same as v13 with just a new number? So I decided not to upgrade. Then seconds after the offer vent out, new about features was released... there it was, 2 way library server... and also some other new great features.

I am disapointed on the way you have been "playing" me to do the upgrade now. I have seen a tread from another using saying that we should stop whining about the upgrade price, but I do not agree. I feel that when you develope a software and ask money for an upgrade there should be some kind of plan presented... If I hired a contractor and he told me that he could "do something" to my house but is not able to tell me what, I would not do it... Also.. if he told me what it was he was thinking about the day after and told me that it now cost double, I would most likely use another contractor!

I'm now coughed in a dilemma, upgrade for the standard price and feel a bit "used" or tricked, or finding another software doing the job. I most likely will do the upgrade this time, but I most likely would not upgrade to 15 if the "upgraderace" is done in the same manner.

My advice is that you make an offer on the upgrade on the stable release, say 19.95$ og 14.95$, and I think a lot of "old" customers will feel that they are "geting something". You might feel and think this is whining, but it's more good customer psycologi, and I think you will make more loyal customers doing so. I have tried this in real life, and it works. And if you sell 500 copies extra on a good offer.. you do the math!


But then again, I'm a bit unsure that I even will get an answer on this post from a JR person......  

Thank you.

[rick.ca]

Why did I read this? Now I want MC to be provided on a subscription basis. Fixed annual fee. No promises of new features. Reformat my hard drive if I don't pay on time...

[JimH]

But then again, I'm a bit unsure that I even will get an answer on this post from a JR person...... 

tdipower,
I'm from JRiver.  I'm sorry you feel we're "playing" you.  We're just a business, like many others, trying to do a good job and feed our families.  Well, to be honest, I'd like to beat Apple and Microsoft in the media space, but we probably don't have the resources to do that.  So for now, we do what we do because we love it.

Pricing is always difficult.  If I thought we could do better by lowering the price, I'd do it.  If I could lower it once and everyone would upgrade, I'd do that.

Planning is impossible.  The market changes every month, and we are expected to stay somewhat current.  We try to listen to good ideas from our customers.  Some of those customers are corporations that you don't hear about.  We like to do a few things for ourselves.  One of my goals is to win over my wife.  She may be my most demanding customer.  She doesn't like technology much.

So I don't have an answer for you, except to say that we did not intend to trick you.  I'm sorry you didn't get what you expected.

Jim

[MrHaugen]

Even if they not often say what that comes next, something you can allways relay on is that there WILL be plenty of nice features to upgrade for. So, don't be so afraid to upgrade, and get the good prices

Remember that the special offer was for people that wanted the early version of MC14 fast (beta), and to follow the progression and give feedback and help with the development. Normally J River give a early special offer, and then a special offer are given after new later on, if I don't remember totally wrong. So you might get lucky later on.

[MGD_King]

Well, to be honest, I'd like to beat Apple and Microsoft in the media space

MC already does that Jim, that's why I've been using it since MJ8.

[DaremoS]

I've bought any version of your excellent product J River Media Center.

Here is the history:

1.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 11 from JRiver, Inc. for $26.00. <---- this was the first licence.
2.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 12 from JRiver, Inc. for $19.98.
3.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 13 from JRiver, Inc. for $14.98.

Now in this times of economy problems you are asking us $24.98.!!!!

Come on guy take a chill pill... you have gone too far...

I will stay in my MC 13 for a looooooooooong time

[JimH]

Your call.  I'm glad you're happy with what you have.

We spend a lot of time working on improvements.  They don't always benefit everyone.  You did take a look, right?

If you use MC every day for an hour or two, even at $25, the cost is around 5 cents an hour.  In Minneapolis, it costs 50 cents an hour to park a car on the street.

[flac.rules]

Hehe, but your competition is other similar software, not street parking 

25 dollars is pretty expensive for a upgrade. However at the moment the speed and quality of development is enough to warrant the price IMHO, but if the pricing is to continue, i would also excpect devolopment quality to keep up. Just my random two cents.

[Mr ChriZ]

I've bought any version of your excellent product J River Media Center.

Here is the history:

1.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 11 from JRiver, Inc. for $26.00. <---- this was the first licence.
2.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 12 from JRiver, Inc. for $19.98.
3.- Thank you for your purchase of Media Center 13 from JRiver, Inc. for $14.98.

Now in this times of economy problems you are asking us $24.98.!!!!

Come on guy take a chill pill... you have gone too far...

I will stay in my MC 13 for a looooooooooong time

Your kidding me right?

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65014838-Photoshop-CS4-Upgrade/dp/B001EUIWGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416242&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65014838-Photoshop-CS4-Upgrade/dp/B001EUIWGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416242&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-Tiger-10-4-Upgrade/dp/B0012FZBOM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416321&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Acrobat-5-0-Upgrade-OSX/dp/B00005ATSS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416321&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Upgrade-Crystal-Reports-2008-Win/dp/B001HZD3YW/ref=sr_1_74?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416413&sr=1-74

I spent $26 on a pizza the other night!

[MrHaugen]

I spent $26 on a pizza the other night!

Same here. Moste people that buy MC use it quite a lot. The application is PACKED with features, wich no other media player/media center get's close to. The features get implemented fast, and usualy acording to user wishes. Think about how much time they have spent in development! In my opinion this application is worth at least 100$ for initial cost and 50$ for each upgrade. If you do the upgrades at the time of the special offers, then you'll even get it cheaper. Around 15-20$. That's awfully cheap.
Honestly if you're in that big of a money problem, why to you pay for internet, why do you have a computer? Those things costs MUCH more.

Sorry for the harsh words here. I'm just getting a bit upset with all of you complaining on this tiny price. Look at the price of iTunes app store applications. You'll probably have to pay several bucks for app that makes fart sounds! Just double, or maby tripple that amount, and you're at the upgrade price.

[flac.rules]

Honestly if you're in that big of a money problem, why to you pay for internet, why do you have a computer? Those things costs MUCH more.

That is a pretty poor argument, most people have a finite amount of money, 26 dollars not used for MC could be used for something else, if he feels that he is better of using a free media player, and using the 26 dollar on something else, that is his prorities, and has nothing to do with having a money problem. When people say that something is expensive, it's rarly because its impossible for them to afford, but because it gives back less per dollar compared to similar products, or other products they would rather spend money on.

[tdipower]

tdipower,
I'm from JRiver.  I'm sorry you feel we're "playing" you.  We're just a business, like many others, trying to do a good job and feed our families.  Well, to be honest, I'd like to beat Apple and Microsoft in the media space, but we probably don't have the resources to do that.  So for now, we do what we do because we love it.

Pricing is always difficult.  If I thought we could do better by lowering the price, I'd do it.  If I could lower it once and everyone would upgrade, I'd do that.

Planning is impossible.  The market changes every month, and we are expected to stay somewhat current.  We try to listen to good ideas from our customers.  Some of those customers are corporations that you don't hear about.  We like to do a few things for ourselves.  One of my goals is to win over my wife.  She may be my most demanding customer.  She doesn't like technology much.

So I don't have an answer for you, except to say that we did not intend to trick you.  I'm sorry you didn't get what you expected.

Jim

Thank you for taking your time Jim! 

Well, first of all, I feel that your product is better then both Microsoft and Apple equivalents. (they are not even equivalents...) This is why I will upgrade to v.14 even if I'm not happy with your politics!
There is however some other thirdparty products coming up, so that's what you should have in your mind.

I'm also in that business of trying to sell a good product and doing this so good that I can feed my family. What I think is a bit different is our thoughts about how to achieve this goal.
You say that pricing is difficult. No it's really not.

The best way you can play this is with a really low and good offer at the intro of a new release. say that this is around 12-15$. This will then be for people like Mr. Haugen that will upgrade for supporting JR and use of their time to
improve and betatest the product. And I think this is an admirably job from all those that help with makeing the product good.

Second, at release, like now... Make a fuzz with some real email "spam" and a good offer. This should then be somewhere around 15-20$ for a short period of time. Also, this is the time to make a good offer for those that are new to the product. If you knew business and human psychology you would know that it's better for business to make an offer of lowering the price rather then like you do now with "threatening" to raise the price with 5$.

But what's realy more disturbing is that you say "planning is impossible". If you are in the software development business and don't have a business and product plan... you should not be doing business! And if you have a product plan, then it would be a good thing presenting some highlights to the customer at the time of coming with a good offer. Not after this periode has ended. This is the way that other software companies do it. Say Ubuntu, there you know what to expect in the next release almost the day after the last version is released. This will also make it easyer for me as a customer deciding if I want to spend my hard earned cash on your product or not.

Also when some people complain about this offer this should ring a bell. Some will always whine about pricing, but I feel that a lot more are complaing this time then from 12-13. And I think this is related to the missing plan....
you say " If I could lower it once and everyone would upgrade, I'd do that." so... do it. If you do this now at the "release" of the final v.14 I think you will please the people that have been disapointed with this "upgraderace" As stated before, I will upgrade anyway this time. But again, the psychology is that if I get a good offer now, I will have a "good feeling" and be a lot easier to persuade buying your v.15. I do think I'm not only speaking for myself. Just look at MGD_King, he now have this good feeling "permanently" and is "the customer" you realy should try to get all your customers to be.

Also, the best way to "feed your family" is with a good business, and to have a good business you need customers. And one happy customer sell the product for you. MrHaugen is the reason that I run J River. Then again, unhappy customers are worse for business.

And finally! If business is good, you will have more $$'es and can have f.ex. a better holiday or a nice dinner and "win" over your wife. One will never win in a marriage, it's hard work, but something like good business and a happy feeling makes thing easyer. ;-) Just don't mix wifes and business. 


Keep up the good work on the product, but please, take a moment to think about this.

Thank you Jim. 

Fredrik

[tdipower]

Same here. Moste people that buy MC use it quite a lot. The application is PACKED with features, wich no other media player/media center get's close to. The features get implemented fast, and usualy acording to user wishes. Think about how much time they have spent in development! In my opinion this application is worth at least 100$ for initial cost and 50$ for each upgrade. If you do the upgrades at the time of the special offers, then you'll even get it cheaper. Around 15-20$. That's awfully cheap.
Honestly if you're in that big of a money problem, why to you pay for internet, why do you have a computer? Those things costs MUCH more.

Sorry for the harsh words here. I'm just getting a bit upset with all of you complaining on this tiny price. Look at the price of iTunes app store applications. You'll probably have to pay several bucks for app that makes fart sounds! Just double, or maby tripple that amount, and you're at the upgrade price.

Well.. I can not agree with you there... Apples OSX is 99$ and that is a LOT more changes than the change from JR 13-14. And a lot of my friends use XBMC or iTunes and those are free... they are even crossplatform! I don't think that JR should be free and I'm happy paying for it, but with a 50$ upgrade I would not do it with so many other alternatives. with a 100$ cost it would only be for the hardcore music librarys like yours, and then you would start loosing customers, making the income lower, having to charge more money to the remaining customers... and so on. Also a higher price would lead to piracy of the application. At the other end, to low price will also be bad for the income. I have tried "selling" JR to a couple of friends, but at the cost of 45$ they have gone with iTunes for music and XBMC for movies. They both have a higher income then me and have "all the money they need".

Also the fart app is free.... and the most expensive app I have bought in the appstore is the remote for JRiver! This is about 10$.

My conclusion is that JR is a good app, PACKED, as you say. Also the price is still resonnable but it should realy start thinking about lowering instead of rising the price. Also, the initial cost could be high, but for "old" customer there should be a good offer. Else JR will lose more and more to free crossplatform software.

If JR was made crossplatform with the avability to stream and organize movies, series, pictures and music between this machines, THEN the app would be a 100-200$ app.

[MrHaugen]

That is a pretty poor argument, most people have a finite amount of money, 26 dollars not used for MC could be used for something else, if he feels that he is better of using a free media player, and using the 26 dollar on something else, that is his prorities, and has nothing to do with having a money problem. When people say that something is expensive, it's rarly because its impossible for them to afford, but because it gives back less per dollar compared to similar products, or other products they would rather spend money on.

If you grab the chance when the special price offere is given, this price is 15$-19$. Not 26$. This upgrade price is pocket change imo, but I can't call my self rich. 15$ is what I use on 2 beers when when I'm going out. I would not waste 1 minute to think about buying this app or something else, simply because it's that good, and for me, neccessary. Applications used for much of the same purposes as MC (library management, Media Center, Jukebox, zone control etc) are a LOT more expensive. For those who use MC only as music playback with a limited library, sure, I can see the point then. iTunes might fit them better, but those who use MC for more, and who use some of it's potential, they should be able to understand it's real value.

My conclusion is that JR is a good app, PACKED, as you say. Also the price is still resonnable but it should realy start thinking about lowering instead of rising the price. Also, the initial cost could be high, but for "old" customer there should be a good offer.

I agree. It could be a nice approach, but it could potentialy push away new customers as well. And another thing is that if they lower the price with 20%, they have to increase the sales with 40% or something to earn the same amount as they do today. So it's not that simple to just lower the price.

People who use iTunes and XBMC might be happy with that. I'm not. I want every media in one application, and all the possibilities that brings. iTunes works with not so huge music libraries, and XBMC sure is good for Movies and Series. But MC is really starting to catch up on XBMC in the latest releases, and will hopefully catch up in this version or at least in the next one.

The fart app on App Store might have been a bad example. Never actually bought an app there my self as I have no iPhone yet (but I will soon). But the fact is that most other software costs a bit and often have less features, some apps are free but are rather simple most of the time. IF you do not use the app to it's full potential then the product might not be for you, but please do not say that this is an expensive app. For it's feature set, all the helpfull and knowledgable people on the forum, chance of influencing further development, I have to say it's a bargain.
 
As for the Rivermote app, that is a bit steep price for such a app, but it's not J River who have made it, nor have they set the price. Try the other remote control instead. It's free, and it's got much more functions.

[ADDiCT]

Your kidding me right?

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65014838-Photoshop-CS4-Upgrade/dp/B001EUIWGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416242&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65014838-Photoshop-CS4-Upgrade/dp/B001EUIWGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416242&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-Tiger-10-4-Upgrade/dp/B0012FZBOM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416321&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Acrobat-5-0-Upgrade-OSX/dp/B00005ATSS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416321&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Upgrade-Crystal-Reports-2008-Win/dp/B001HZD3YW/ref=sr_1_74?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1250416413&sr=1-74

I spent $26 on a pizza the other night!

Well maybe you should eat a little less then, or learn to cook. And you're not really comparing a media player to professional design software or an OS, are you?

[tdipower]

If you grab the chance when the special price offere is given, this price is 15$-19$. Not 26$.

And I have no trouble paying either 15$ or 26$ for the upgrade. That's not the point. My point is that the way this was done this time was bad customer psychology. Sure, a good offer was given at the announce of v.14. But if I remember correctly, when the v.13 was at the same offer there was "a plan" of what would come in that version. And I upgraded at the next offer at release as I then could see what I got. This price was a bit higher then the initial offer. 15$ vs 20$ I think. But that is the way it should be...

This time I feel JR have done it all wrong. They give an offer at 15$, but that is before any "plan" is out. And now at release it's only looking like they are going to set up the cost of the upgrade from 26$ and up... not give an offer when the app is showing what it's good for.

To speak for my self, I did not upgrade at the initial offer this time because I was waiting on a two way mediaserver... that was also why I upgraded from 12-13 but the function never came. So then again I desided to wait it out, and couple of days after the offer was ended the two way mediaserver was there.. This could not be "all news" to JR and could have been mentioned in the 15$ offer. I now then have to pay 26$ for the upgrade, witch I will do, but I feel a bit "played" by JR this time.

IF you do not use the app to it's full potential then the product might not be for you, but please do not say that this is an expensive app. For it's feature set, all the helpfull and knowledgable people on the forum, chance of influencing further development, I have to say it's a bargain.

I believe I haven't saied the app is expensive, and it IS packed and I agree on your points. My only point at this was that if they raise the initial cost further I believe they will sell a lot less...

People who use iTunes and XBMC might be happy with that. I'm not. I want every media in one application, and all the possibilities that brings. iTunes works with not so huge music libraries, and XBMC sure is good for Movies and Series. But MC is really starting to catch up on XBMC in the latest releases, and will hopefully catch up in this version or at least in the next one.

I feel so to. If I only got a separate view for series, musicvideos and videos with as good thumbnails as the music I would be greatfull. I'm currently using JR only as music and picture library because of the missing video features.

I will again point out that I'm not at all unhappy with the software. It's great! It's the way of the upgrade that bothers me. But then again it might just be me....  

[Mr ChriZ]

And I have no trouble paying either 15$ or 26$ for the upgrade. That's not the point. My point is that the way this was done this time was bad customer psychology. Sure, a good offer was given at the announce of v.14. But if I remember correctly, when the v.13 was at the same offer there was "a plan" of what would come in that version. And I upgraded at the next offer at release as I then could see what I got. This price was a bit higher then the initial offer. 15$ vs 20$ I think. But that is the way it should be...

I've been hanging around here for way to long (sort of like a haunting) and I can safely say I've never seen a plan.  
Personally I prefer things that way.  Part of what I get with MC is a suprise everytime there's a new release.
It's like a mini xmas on a weekly basis, only much much cheaper.

[DaremoS]

Your kidding me right?

I spent $26 on a pizza the other night!

If you spent such amount in pizzas good for you!!! (north-american pizzas are awesome by the way).

But you don't follow the relation in the values of upgrades... if you ask me US$ 50 for a new license probably I would pay it... J R Media Center is the best application from my POV... I'm a an audiophile and a musician. But this guys have jump from US$20. to US$25 in a single step buddy!!!... when economy suggest other way of actions.. in all the forums I participate I state that MC is the best application... but it doesn't mean that I would pay all what they want.

[Mr ChriZ]

If you spent such amount in pizzas good for you!!! (north-american pizzas are awesome by the way).

But you don't follow the relation in the values of upgrades... if you ask me US$ 50 for a new license probably I would pay it... J R Media Center is the best application from my POV... I'm a an audiophile and a musician. But this guys have jump from US$20. to US$25 in a single step buddy!!!... when economy suggest other way of actions.. in all the forums I participate I state that MC is the best application... but it doesn't mean that I would pay all what they want.

I'd get one delivered but I think it would be cold by the time it reached Cardiff  
Plus I recently got a cake delivered to Minessota and it almost bankrupted me.

I work the commercial, IT, development, support and occasionally make tea for a small company in the UK.
Sometimes prices have to rise completley out of scope of everything else that's happening.

I believe Baz Luhrman  had something about this in his song "Wear sunscreen" - he said "Prices will rise", and sadly.. they do.

[rick.ca]

It's the way of the upgrade that bothers me. But then again it might just be me...

That's just the thing—it's not just you. But that doesn't make your point-of-view any less puzzling and illogical to me. JRiver appears to be a small enterprise, the success of which is largely dependent on the commercial success of this application. It's not hard to imagine there's a fairly clear relationship between it's revenue from our registration fees and the feeding of the developers' families. The implications are obvious—users are funding the development of this application. If development is to continue at the pace most of us would like to see, a certain amount of revenue is required. Yes, that means setting a price that will maximize revenue is a critically important business decision. Offering "deals," even if they appear to work, is of questionable value. On some level, every user has to realize whatever they may save has to cost another user. I understand scarcity thinking is so rampant in our society few people question it or their resulting behaviour. But, really, what is the point? It seems my choosing not to care about any of this has resulted in me saving a slice of pizza, while your attitude has cost you the same. Believe me, that gives me no satisfaction whatsoever. I know we'd all be much better off not wasting time and energy on such nonsense.

I'm no marketing expert, but it seems to me a valid strategy appropriate for high quality items is premium pricing with no "deals." Maybe the marketing message implicit in the pricing should be, "If you want to use and support the development of the best media center application available, you have to pay the price. We're too focused on development here to worry about those needing a free lunch."

I, too, would like to see a development plan—but for a completely different reason. If it were done the right way, I think it would help build a stronger community here. It would reinforce what many of us already understand—the development team is doing the best it can to understand and fulfil the needs and wishes of users. If the purpose of presenting a development plan is to convince sceptics the software will eventually be worthy of their upgrade fee, it will fail. It would only serve to reinforce negative attitudes and the separation between users and developers. I like to feel the developers are working on my behalf. I don't want anyone in that position to have any doubt I trust them to do so, and appreciate their efforts.

[HTPC4ME]

i'd be happy to pay 25.. umm BUT what about my other numerous posts here.. will 14 or any version after EVER have pdf,ebook,.cbr viewing capability (like comic rack)?

Oh and my other posts for a feature like collectorz? where we can see all info of our dvd's... a way for jriver to download all the dvd info from amazon or similiar sites so we don't have to tag it all, and we can select the movie and it will show all the info.. directors, actors, other movies they were in etc...

yet to hear a reply on those two questions, but when i do.. you'll get my money  

ohhhhhh and will there ever be a file \ save settings \  Restore settings feature? so when we reformat we can be up and running easier and not have to come back to the forum and take hours of your time and others time to find the answer to that one setting we have tweaked or set but can't seem to find what that setting was or how we tweaked it, or why something is running diffrently then before? (a file we can save for all settings, view schemes, plugins etc...)

[JimH]

xtacbyme,
1.  Maybe, no guarantee.
2.  See the Third Party board here for several solutions for movie metadata.  YADB currently has DVD art.

[JimH]

Closing this now.