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[JimH]

[moved from Lucy's thread by JimH -- worth a thread of its own]

To Zevelle
I want to add to my above post that I appreciate the information from you on many subjects but most especially on the situation in Israel. It was quite a surprise to see you write that you find it safer in Israel than you did in Paris. That seems amazing!!

In any event I hope you will continue to be safe and live long.

Thanks also to MachineHead and Charlemagne 8 for your contributions.

Holden


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zevele10 07-06-2002 07:51:37 A.M.

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I feel safer here than in Paris in my everyday life
There is a hight scholl who has a program with LA scholl in the US
Despite the situation,many young americans jews been here few months ago
It is a program for well-of familys
You need to have a room for the young from US and a room for the parents if the want to come here the last week of the stage
Not a surprise if i tell you we got a lot on TV and Newspapers about it
13\14 years old us kids just amazed to go out ALONE[without the parents] to coffee,movies, partys ,discos
Parents of this kids amazed to walk on the beach promenade,have a drink at one o'clock in the morning,all of it 100% trouble free

Ask my nephews[who live in France] about they all night out at 12-13-14 years old
I just took them and friends of them with my car to the place,gave them money for entrance,drinks and way back with a taxi.
I did only what everyone is doing here.

Of cause when there is a bomb at the entrance of a disco one friday night-like few months ago- ,reading the list of the victims look very stange: X 13 years old-D&T 14-K 15 and so on
I am not sure but possible it was a disco for people UP TO 16
Older than this,you do not get admission
When i go to the bank,i sit on a chair,in front of the worker and we do what i want.No protection.
You are never attacked ,rob in the street.
At 3 o'clock in the morning,you can take money from a machine,no one -like in Paris-will try to steal you.Killing you for $20,as i saw when still in France

All the kind of clock for water[with the numbers on it for the bill] with the tap are outside,the same for all the gaz bottles

In France,idiots will clause your water non stop ,and will stole your gaz bottles

On the top of it half of the population have guns.Soldiers for one have to keep they weapon[not a gun ,but Uzzi or bigger] with them no matter when and where
To see boys doing pogo with a Uzzi on they side at concert leave voice less the first time you see it,trust me.A lot of civilian have guns or bigger.I mean they cary it.You can see dad with is Uzzy,kids at the super market,and there is no incident.

Of cause,the country is not 100% free of crime
But ,yes the israeli society is a safe one

The unsafe part of our lifes is an external one


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MachineHead 07-06-2002 08:09:46 A.M.

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>>>> The unsafe part of our lifes is an external one <<<<
zevele,

I think you just drilled this one on the head.

A thought here, do you think Isreal would still be as safe as it is now if there were no 'external' threats? Don't get me wrong, I just thought this might make an interesting hypothetical question. I'm glad that your kids can go out at night without to many worries. Wish the same could true be everywhere.


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zevele10 07-06-2002 08:40:46 A.M.

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My answer is yes.Because to me it looks like it has something to do with the very soul of jews-but maybe i just say a very stupid thing right now-
If we have peace one day,big ,very very big problems ,need to be put 'on the table'
The biggest,and the more dangerous is between seculars and religious
The situation is a baril of powder.We can speak of hate
By religious i do not mean all religious.Only the ultra,the ones you see so much dress in black on TV.Me ,as many many more, see them as enemys

Concerning young kids having total freedoom,here is the cause:
When 18 years old ,your kid is going to army
3 years for boys,2 for girls
Because of such a long time in the army,you can have your 2 boys in the army at the same time
Of cause they can be cook.But one cook feed few hundreds soldiers
So most of the times,your 2 boys will be in combattant units

And now,family MachineHead is a member of the 'boys fighting for 3 years' club

You do not ring MachineHead family late-they may think it is the army ...to tell...
You do not stop by and ring the bell in the evening-they may think....

You do not ask them about hollidays.For 3 years THEY WILL NOT GO ON HOLLIDAYS,they will stay in the country ,in case......

And there is a second club for lady MachineHead :"all in the army"
One kid on the northen border
One kid in Gaza
And mister Machine head in Jenin for a 38 days long reserve duty

Because of kids have total freedom.If they are killed during army,they will have some fun before

[JimH]

[Machinehead's post, moved here.]

zevele,
Here is the scenario I see. Because of the constant threat to Isreali society, people are armed. Required? I don't know, you have to answer that one. In any case, if Isreal were not under this black cloud, would the people still be armed? And, feel as safe as now?

In the USA, people are allowed to own and keep firearms. With major restrictions placed on them. Here, you do not see the average Joe walking down the street with Uzi's and Desert Eagles strapped onto them. This is because we are not under the same constant threats as the people of Isreal. Here, there are threats of course, but not even close to those experienced on a daily basis there. Even with the possibility of getting murdered in the street here, people still don't necessarily take out ol' trusty and carry it with them everyday. The USA still prefers, and for good reason I suspect, to let trained law enforcement handle any problems. So, you can see, while we feel safe in some respects, there are other problems here that would make one leary to let junior out alone for the evening.

Now, if the entire country were to be armed because of National threats, I wouldn't doubt that the crime rates here would drop dramatically. Afterall, if everyone is loaded for bear, who is going to be stupid enough to try and take you out? Again, this is only a hypothetical situation. I'd rather not have to worry about packing some heat. Probably wouldn't look good with the casual attire that some many of us enjoy anyway. Militant look went out with the Punk scene years ago.


This is why I ask if there were no threats (on a National level ) such as here, do you think you would still have as safe a society as you have now?

[peleton]

I would tend to agree with Zevele in that it is not necessarily just the fact that everyone is armed to the teath that makes it a (relatively) safe society.  There is also an element of social attitude.

Here in Perth (Australia) it is illegal to have a gun. -I think perhaps you can own a gun -but only if you are a farmer and need use it for rural purposes, or are a member of a pistol-club. In both cases the gun must be licensed for that purpose, and in the case of the gun-club you must leave the gun at the club. -Oh and even in these cases any thing like a pump-action or semi-automatic (or better) is illegal, it is quite strict.

(I am not 100% on these laws so other Aussies feel free to correct me).

My point is that you pretty much never see guns and yet the climate (social) is very similar to what Zev described in Israel.  I don't know about 12year olds staying out all night, but we certainly do have underage disco's like Zev described. -I think they shut at midnight or something.

Obviously over here population would certainly be a factor.-For example I here people saying things like "it's not as safe in Sydney". (comments from anyone in Sydney? -or Melbourne?)

just my $0.02

peleton.

[zevele1]

First what i said IS NOT that the society is safe because a lot of people have weapons
I toke the fact that ,with so many weapons,there is not incident with weapons involved as a proof of how the society is safe.

Now ,here is Israel,it is illegal to have a gun without licence.A lot of people are armed for security raisons.ONLY THIS RAISON.If full peace they will have to give back they guns

As someone doing decoration job in the Tel-aviv aera.I WILL NEVER GET A LICENCE for a gun
So ,who has a weapon?
-soldiers when they have short breaks-like a week-end-they stay in uniform with they weapon all the break.Ready to go to the front line in no time if needed
If they have a week or 2 weeks break,they are not in uniform,they do not have they weapon with them

-People living inside the green line.They take it when traveling.
Speaking about personal experience,if you take your Uzzy to travel from Jordan valley to Tel-Aviv ,when in town ,YOU DO NOT LEAVE IT IN THE CAR-If stolen or lost you are in very bery very big troubles.
So you take it with you

_workers: bus drivers of some lines-delivery man driving near or througth palestinien places-people from phone ,electricity compagny when they have to work in dangerous place[if they spend they day in Tel-Aviv,they do not have a gun]

-the nice guy you have coffee with every morning,the nice guy sitting near you in the Tel-Aviv\New York fly,many others nice guy and nice women by the way.But this one ,you do not know they have a gun.
Like the one who killed the terrorist in Los Angeless airport

And some people who are part of the head of the 'passive defense'

NONE OF THIS PEOPLE ARE HERE TO ACT INSTEAD OF THE POLICE

Sure,if i waiting at the bus station and i see a car comming full speed to the bus station ,i mean straight away to the bus station,if i have a gun,i shout the driver
If i see a terrorist attacking people with a knife or axe,i shout him

But,unlike in USA, here no one fell like a Tarzan,a Superman or a Sheriff because he has a gun
And no one can ever think about to shoot someone stealing his car.
We have guns because it can help.But we will give them back to the State with no problem if not needed

Beside this,again unlike USA ,anyone spend 3 years in the army and know how to use a weapon and know it is not a tool

So,if peace,only few people would have weapons.But there is no links
betewn safe and guns
Guns are to use against the enemy,not inside your own society

And if in USA from next week,every one has a gun,i move there...as a grave digger i will make millions dollars

[zevele1]

Safe or not?

When i am in London ,i feel really safe,I really mean it,i am serious when i say it

People in London tell me i'am crazy,London is very dangerous and so on

But when i say it i speak as someone living in Paris for years.
And yes London is safe if you compare to Paris

So, safe,safer all is in the reference you take from the start.

[sekim]

>>>> A lot of people are armed for security raisons. <<<<

This was exactly my point. Eliminate the securty reasons and things are different. But, it may be that Isreal does have a society that would 'get along' better then the US.

I don't know of anyone personally, that owns guns, and I know a lot of people who do, that acts or feels like 'Tarzan-Superman-Sheriff', because of gun ownership. This is probably a view perceived from afar by basing what we are like from a movie. Hey, fantasy is fantasy, don't believe everything you see in the films. Life here is not so different then what you may be living now.

peleton,

From what I have read a long time ago. Gun owners in your country had the wool pulled over their eyes with a political shake up. No one seen it coming? Didn't this little coupe even affect your Olympic shooting sports teams? Is this true?

Would enjoy to hear from someone who actaully lives there instead of a reading it from a paper.

[peleton]

>From what I have read a long time ago. Gun owners in your country had the wool pulled over their eyes with a political shake up. No one seen it coming?

Yeah, the laws changed very recently, and it may have seemed sudden, but there has always been a lot of pressure for the government to make the gun laws stricter.* (people here are very aware of social issues and the government can have a hard time when thimgs become public knowledge -like atm with asylum seekers)
The way it worked was a huge gun buy-back scheme. This wasn't too bad for people who had "old" guns, but I imagine that if someone had just bought a new pump-action then it would have been quite a loss of money.

Again due to pressure, I think there were amendments to the ruling, such that farmers with more than a certain acreage could get an exemption. (or something like that)


>Didn't this little coupe even affect your Olympic shooting sports teams? Is this true?

I didn't hear anthing about this!?!  The guns in question were semi-automatics and anything more powerful than these. (I don't know much about guns.)  I can't imageine anyone getting away with hassling our national sports teams, but what might have happened is the sports shooters in clubs (ie those training in the hope of getting noticed in the sport) may have had a hard time getting aproval to keep their guns.  


*another example of public pressure leading to laws, is the fact that it is now illegal to smoke in any workplace/school/gov buildings/public-transport, etc. Also restuarants have to have (by law) a non-smoking section with sufficient protection from the smoke! As a result I only know a few people that actually smoke!

[sekim]

peleton,

Here is a site I found using Google.The Great Australian Gun Law Con

[Callithumpian]

The impetus for the increase in Australian Gun Control sprang directly from the outpouring of abhorence that followed the largest mass homicide by a single perpetrator in history at Port Arthur, Tasmania.

The URL you provide, MHead, is to a "homepage".  The homepage of an angst ridden gun supporter by the looks of it. Probably one who is no longer allowed to keep his collection of semi automatic death machines.
From that page...

"I hope it changes things because, let's face it, I want to shoot at the Olympics in 2000 and the way things are going they're not looking too good."
-- Michael Diamond, Australian shooter

Michael Diamond subsequently won two gold medals at the Sydney Olympics to become the first person to win Gold in shooting at three succesive Olympics
 
My own politics are not aligned with that of the current Australian government, quite the opposite, but the Gun Buy Back Scheme is one piece of recent legislation with which I am in full agreement.

Having said that....I think that perceived safety and security are more related to the size of the urban environment as well as the density and cohesion of the populace rather than the relative armoury of the citizens.

Perth, I'm guessing, is a population of a bit under 1 million.  It feels safe to its inhabitants and violent crime statistics vindicate thier feeling.
I'm in Brisbane, it's a little bigger at about 1.3million but still feels very safe.
Sydney, on the other hand with nearly 5million, is big enough to be considerably more dangerous, and just walking around there you can feel it.
I'm not surprised to hear that Paris feels very insecure, Zevele, since it comprises some 8|PLS|million people.  More than the entire population of Israel.  In London, by heavens, be afraid Zev, for your own good.
Tel Aviv, on the other hand, should, under this theory, feel more secure, with a mere 350,000 people, including Jaffa, at the 1995 census.

So, lots of guns in a sparse population with a common enemy bonding that population = safefeeling.  The corrollary, of course, would be  lots of guns in a dense population with no common enemy (except maybe gun control advocates) = bloodbath.

My personal belief is that this goes some way to explaining why Americans are several gazillion times more likley to be killed by a compatriot neighbour than by any terrorist.

OK, give it to me.

[peleton]

>I think that perceived safety and security are more related to the size, age and density of the urban environment rather than the relative armoury of the citezens.

I totally agree. I was trying to say just this. (I did not mean to start some sort of gun/anti-gun debate. Re-reading my post I guess I rambled too much about why it is how it is. Sorry.)

>Perth, I'm guessing, is population of a bit under 1 million. It feels safe to its inhabitants and violent crime statistics vindicate thier feeling.
>I'm in Brisbane, it's a little bigger at about 1.3million but still feels very safe.

Yeah, Perth is quite small by comparison to Sydney and Melbourne. But it is actually little bigger than 1.4 million and not too far behind Brisbane which has just under 1.7 million.  I guess Perth has to have it's good points while at the same time being the most isolated capital city in the world! -To the extent that a lot of international bands skip us on Australian tours, and even the eastern states of Australia often reference "Australia" on TV or in the papers but actually mean "the eastern half of Australia". -Oh yeah another example of the trade off is buying things. I had to wait quite a while to get my speakers. And I paid more than what I would have if I had been in Melbourne or Sydney. I am not complaining, it would be nice to be less cut off, but it is nothing compared to what friends of mine put up with in remote small towns.

Yep, there I am rambling again.

MH:
I'd rather not comment on the gun thingy too much (for fear of inspiring a gun/anti-gun debate when this was far from the point).
But the general attitude here is that guns have never been a big deal to people.  Sure the media pounced on the issue after the Port Arthur thing, but the new laws (and the gun issue) were soon forgotten about and the government was re-elected.  On the whole Australia is a very conservative place (which can be annoying at times) but people here at famous for adapting and finding ways around things. So even if the laws were not fixed to allow normal people to continue doing their jobs/sport then more than likely they found a way to "by-pass" the law and do it anyway.

A great example is the game of "paint-ball" (also called "skirmish" in the east).  This is illegal here in Western Australia due to some duumb laws. But everyone still plays it. Our church group organised a few games, and even the police themselves play it! You could very likely end up playing against a team made up of police men!

anyway I think I have rambled about as far offtopic in this offtopic thread, so I'll stop now.


peleton

[sekim]

Remember guys, I was just posing a 'hypothetical' situation. Things are what things are. I was just curious to see different views.

The world is not going to change based on postings in this board. I know it has wavered somewhat from the original topic. But, this happens quite a bit around here. So, that said, thank you for your views.

My views are just that, mine. Neither right or wrong, just my take on things. Besides, it's always interesting to see what someone else has to say.

Again, thanks.

Mike

[zevele1]

Calliphumpian

You are rigth.
But the general 'soul' of the people plays a role

Put 100 skinheads as a crow to a concert,you get hell
Put 1000 people at a Grateful Dead or Phish concert,you get an happy crow with kids in the crow

In Germany you see people waiting to cross the road,even if the street is empty,because the light is red for them

In England,before you have the first feet on the zebra to cross a street without traffic light,drivers stop

In France ,they do not stop,they just pass you few centimeters before or after you

All of this things built a society and his safeness or not

Try to deliver milk in Paris as they do in England.I bet no more than 1% of the people would find they bottles in the front of they door in the morning

Concerning London:spend few months in Paris,after that spend few months in London.You will feel London is a village

GUNS:
A society where someone kills friends,teachers and others because he did not like the taste of the cornflakes he had for breakfeast is a society who is sick

A society where people have guns for fun,thinking they are John Wayne
is not an enlightened society

[tullio]

Wow!  This thread covers a lot of ground.  It's very hard to identify all the factors that contribute to a sense of security or vulnerability within a society, but when you try to make comparisons between societies the job beomes almost impossible, unless, of course, you get very simplistic.  Then it becomes easy.

Let me suggest a few factors that may contribute to the sense of security Zevele has in Israel.

1.  Solidarity in opposition to a common enemy.  When faced with a common threat, members of any social group are less likely to prey on each other.

2.  Ethnic solidarity.  The history of anti-semitism is long and ugly.  Over the centuries Jews have learned to rely on and trust each other.  And in Israel the sense of being Jewish is much more powerful that any previous national identity (French, or German, or Russian).

3. Solidarity of purpose. You are building a nation.  Together.  And despite all the arguments and haggling about how to do it, down deep you know it is a common goal.

Zevele, I don't mean to suggest that you live in a crime-free utopia.  I know as well as you that Jews rob other Jews, assault other Jews, even (rarely) murder other Jews.  You have criminals, and courts, and jails.  But for the reasons I've listed above, and a lot more that you could certainly add, there is less likelihood of crime in Israel than in pluralistic, fragmented societies like the US or France.

Personally, I find the question of perception vs. reality to be especially intriguing.  Overwhelmingly, Americans believe they are more vulnerable than they actually are.  There has been considerable research on this.  In survey after survey, Americans overestimate by far their chances of being a victim of a crime, especially of a violent crime.

Some of the most interesting work has been done by George Gerbner, who, since 1967, has been studying the effect of mass media on American society.  One facet of his work deals specifically with the question of how violence on television affects our perception of personal danger.  This is the lead-in to one of his articles:

The argument over whether television violence causes real violence misses the point. It's true that there are documented cases of copy-cat murders, and studies do confirm that there is a correlation between violence on television and violent behavior. But more significantly, the alienating culture of television has taken the place of other forms of communication that at one time tied us together in families and communities, and gave us all the opportunity to participate in creating and passing along our cultural story.

George Gerbner, professor of communications and dean emeritus of the Annenberg School of Communication in Philadelphia, has directed a number of studies of mass communications and its effects on culture. He is also a founder of the Cultural Environment Movement, which is working to reassert democratic influence on the media.

You can read the whole article at context.org/ICLIB/IC38/Gerbner

Another very interesting article by Gerbner is at
newdimensions.org/article/gerbner.html

[JimH]

Bump.  It's 21 years old now, but this thread was pretty powerful then.  And now.

[JimH]

And another one.  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=6297

I miss Zevele.