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[JimH]

Lucy (Cheung Lo),

What do you see from your window?

What movies do you like (that are not American)?

I am grateful for your (possible) answers.

Kind regards,

Jim

[Lucy]

Oh, I saw my MJ8 registration info window display my full name and the reg key. Thank you.

I live in the tenth floor of a 30 floors building. It is morning here, and I see older people walking and doing exercise in a small park.

Perhaps because I am studying sociology, I am relatively more interested in social problems films. For Western films, I watched "American History X". I can't say I "like" this film, but I got to know some social facts about your country. I also saw "The Basketball Diary"...

I also saw "The Fight Club", but I think this film is more of a post-modern feel than social problems. As for "The World of Suzy Wong", the image of Hong Kong it potrayed was a bit non-real.

As for Chinese films, I also saw a number of them, but i don't know how to transalte their titles into English. Thank you.

[JimH]

It is getting dark here.  We see a lake and boats going by.

I know the people exercising in the park.  I lived in San Francisco when I was young and there was a park in North Beach where people did something (Tai Chi?) each morning.  It was beautiful.  I was too shy to try.

I saw a nice movie a few months ago that was made about Hong Kong.  It had a young boy on a bicycle who had come from the mainland and a girl he met who had a "good" job in MacDonalds. They became good friends, trying to work their way up.  Beautiful and funny.

For American culture, you might try "American Graffiti".  It is old but true.

Thank you for your description.

Good night.

Jim

[Lucy]

Film title: Comrades Almost A Love Story".....I saw it too

[Chico]

I kinda liked "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" for a taste of american culture!

[peleton]

I am interested in this movie, "Comrades Almost A Love Story" (?)

is it in Chinese? Cantonese? (I do not know Cantonese)

it is commonly available at video stores?

(unfortunately I can't afford to download movies from the internet as the University charges me $0.13 per MB for traffic! (Mad I know)

So a (say.. 700MB) movie would cost me over $90.00!!! to download.

This is also the reason I don't download music. (1 CD would cost me about $10)

When taking quality into consideration it is cheaper to buy from a store.

Cheers
peleton.

[Lucy]

You don't know Cantonese? That means you speak Chinese?

I do not know where in your country you can rent or buy it. I guess some famous international video stores may have it..like Blockbuster?

[peleton]

thanks, I'll try Blockbuster.
yes I speak Chinese (badly ). -or at least I learnt, -but due to lack of practise I am pretty rusty.

so the movie is in Chinese then?
if so, then good, as I like to watch Chinese movies to practise my skills.

cheers

peleton.

[JimH]

Peleton,
I am guessing that the two main characters, who are both from the country, speak Mandarin, but in Hong Kong, most of the action takes place in Cantonese.

Luckily, for me, the movie had subtitles in English.

Lucy, you're right about the title.  Thanks.  I rented it from Netflix.

Jim

[tullio]

Lucy, you mentioned that you are studying sociology.  I'm curious as to the direction that research and instruction in that subject has taken in China.  For quite some time in the US the field has been dominated by advocates of the "scientific" (some say pseudo-scientific) approach which stresses the collection and statistical analysis of data.  But a recent reissue of David Riesman's classic book, "The Lonely Crowd," has stirred up some interest in re-examing his more observational, almost anthropolgical, methods.  Is Riesman included in your studies, and if so, is he considered important?

[Lucy]

Hello Tullio!

I think the recent trend of social reasearch in Hong Kong or China is still the scientific and statistical one. A master candidate may obtain his/her master degree offer with non-scientic-method research topic, but a doctoral candidate who is "obsevational" in style will have little to compete with those who have complex statistical models.
The reason is MONEY. Governments won't want to fund any non-staistical social research, unless the researcher is a well-known and highly respectable professor in university. A king is still seen as wearing clothes when he is not because he is the king. My professors alwasy tell us that we shouldn't make non-sense statistical models for our research unless it is necessary, but they themselves are producing such kind of journals every year in American Journal of Sociology or American Sociological Review. I understand them, because if they don't do that, they might be fired!

As for David Riesman, I have never heard of him and his book. But I am familiar with his methodology. Actually, the stage of sociology had shifted from America to Europe again shortly after the Second World War was over. After the death of Talcott Parsons, scientific methods of American sociology became uncertain for some period. At the same time, Europeans were developing new ways (alternative to science) to study the society. They used anthropology, archaeology, history to enrich sociology.

Oh, they were not working for sociology. Although they were not sociologists, but their works were discussed in my class (Contemporay Social Theory) often. Structuralism, post-structuralism and post-modernism grew quickly. The works of Levi Strauss (yes, but not the one who made jeans), Michel Foucault, Fredric Jameson (Frederic Jameson?) and Jurgen Habermas are worth studying. They don't tell you statistical models. But they show you the things that science can't show you.

I recommend "Madness and Civilization" by Foucault. It talks about the history of silent people (mad people or people being defined as ab-normal at different eras). I dislike Levi Strauss, because I am not familiar with western myths. Habermas is full of passion, but the English translation from his German language is hard to understand. But I am sure tullio is able to read their works because you speak English right??

I have heard of a book that its point is similar to Riesman's one. The book talks about American people bowling alone and some other evaluations then --> indifference. "The Pursuit of Lonliness" by Slater also has a simiar purpose. Howard Becker's "Outsiders" is an excellent work on deviance. He did much observation work. We are creating outsiders ourselves. And those who are seen as deviants also see us as outsiders.

I think this post is too long.

[tullio]

Lucy,

Thanks for your informative reply.  What you describe is very similar to the conditions here.

David Riesman published The Lonely Crowd in 1950, just as I was entering university.  So I experienced the impact of the book from the very outset, and it was a very powerful impact, indeed.  Even though most sociologists hated it, everyone else loved it, and it quickly moved to the very center of American intellectual life.  Terms that Riesman coined in the book like “other directed,” “inner directed,” “tradition directed,” quickly became a part of almost every campus conversation.  People began to examine their personal motivations for behavior in entirely new ways and to look at their society with new eyes.  Along with Ruth Benedict’s Patterns of Culture and Margaret Mead’s Coming of Age in Samoa, The Lonely Crowd helped shape the world view of an entire college generation.  For the first time in their lives students and many other Americans saw themselves as part of a cultural pattern and saw their society as just one culture among many in the world.  We began to scrutinize American society in a way we never had before.  I don’t believe I exaggerate when I say that this was the birth of the thinking that led to the revolutionary spirit of the 1960s.

Unfortunately, by the mid-1970s the self-analytical approach advocated by Riesman had devolved into a form of narcissistic self-indulgence that found its full expression in the greedy materialism of the 1980s.  This fit perfectly with our growing obsession with measurable results.  The quest for “accountability” demanded that all activity be quantified so that progress could be measured on a numerical scale.  How easily, then, did material acquisition and accumulation become the measure of individual worth.  It is so simple to add up the value of real estate, stock portfolios, salaries, etc. and so impossible to measure the growth of mind, spirit, and character.  Don’t misunderstand, materialism is nothing new in America.  De Tocqueville saw it clearly in 1830 when he wrote Democracy in America.  What is new is the recognition and endorsement of materialism as a fundamental ideal norm.  For most of US history Americans knew they were materialistic but felt guilty about it, tried to deny it, and gave lip-service to loftier goals.  Now the acquisition and accumulation of material possessions is openly acknowledged and acclaimed as our primary aim.  The concept of society has been completely subsumed into the concept of  a dynamic, expanding economy.  

And quantification reigns supreme.  In America today, if you can’t count it, it doesn’t count.

[Charlemagne 8]

Uh, I like beer and pizza.

[JimH]

C8,
? Can you explain?

JimH

[KingSparta]

C8

Me Too

Normaly On A Sat

FYI: C8's First Kid Was Named C4

[Charlemagne 8]

Sure. It tastes good ...
... and I felt really stupid reading the above posts. I should have just bowed out gracefully but I'm not in the mood. For further explanation, read my totally inappropriate response to Yonatan. I guess I was more upset than I thought.

[tullio]

C8

So do I.  I know the prose sounds stuffy, but you write to your audience.  Foreign students learn English primarily from academic texts in English, and they usually can read this stuff easier than the banter that goes on between native speakers.  We talk to each other in idioms that they don't understand at all.  Like big fish (sorry Jim).

My son is about to marry a sociology major, and I discussed some of these questions with her.  I was curious about Lucy's reaction.  No attempt to dazzle with fancy footwork (boxing idiom,Lucy).  If I wanted to do that I'd caution you against letting your responses transmogriphy into atrabilious amphigory.

Be kind to garrulous old men while you can.

[Charlemagne 8]

Tullio,
I actually AM a garrulous old man. No problem. If I talked about surveying to another surveyor, you might not understand me. All professions have their own language. It speeds up the process of communication.
But thank you for caring.

[JimH]

C8,
Just kidding above.  Surveyor?  Thoreauly honest profession.

Tullio,
I walked into the fish thing.  But then I almost signed myself as JimH, Big Brother.  Lucy can explain that one to some others here.

Lucy and Tullio,
Don't stop now.  I'm making a book list.

Jim
Little fish

[zevele1]

Lucy and Tullio

Yes do not stop

Not that i am very competent in your field.But i have enougth of 'general culture'[you say that in english?] to know a little about it
And just would like to read more from you

On a personal level,i have a weird experience.Because of the situation here,you tend,you need to became more basic
To use a cheap symbol,let say that if you hang a gun,you cannot hang a pen
People do not feel,do not have the strenght,cannot afford to give so much room to intellectual side of life

I do not know how to say it-english is not the problem in this case-
Kind of if you ,Tullio, has from today to use my english,not your english.Feel of a great loss,great waste,but you have to do with it

The true is that some people are strong enougth to deal with this.
But i do not have the quality to be part of them

But there is only very few people like it,not enought to give the country a general standing above the 'to deal with' every day life
Look like it is like it since 1948,and i do feel this is even more a problem than bombs from hamas

But if i say such a thing setting at a coffee shop,they will think i got to much sun

[Lucy]

Hello everyone!

was Zev using a newly developed grammar?

I think my command of English is limited....I don't understand the replies of C8 and Zev....But they seemed complaining

But I understand why you are complaining. Because this is the forum of a commerical site, not that of  an e-journal one.

Actually, tullio, I guess the works of Max Weber would interest you. He was a German sociologist who studied bureaucracy and religion. He is one of the found fathers of sociology. His critique on rationality is tough. You may not agree with him, but you will feel good for hearing alternative views on the secular world. Try not to let the second world war to affect your impression of German thinkers.  

By the way, my professor read an article taling about that American youth like grunting more than talking. What do you guys thing?

[JohnT]

Kind of off-off topic, and I mean no offense to the lucid, coherent writing in this thread, but I came across a funny example of really bad academic writing. This was on a web site from New Zealand and was the winning entry for an international "Bad Writing" contest:

"The move from a structuralist account in which capital is understood to structure social relationships in relatively homologous ways to a view of hegemony in which power relations are subject to repetition, convergence, and rearticulation brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of Althusserian theory that takes structural totalities as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the contingent possibility of structure inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the contingent sites and strategies of the rearticulation of power."

This was written by Judith Butler, a professor of rhetoric and comparative literature at the University of California at Berkeley, whose been described as "one of the 10 smartest people on the planet". She may be smart, but she sure can't write!

Maybe Lucy can translate for us.

[JimH]

JohnT,
[grunt]

Jim

[tullio]

Lucy,

Thanks again.  I am familiar with the work of Max Weber, and also with most of the books you mentioned earlier.  I deliberately avoided commenting on them becuase I really didn't want to get into the kind of academic discussiion in which people keep citing bibliographies to each other.  I also always feel guilty about using a public forum to ask questions just to satisfy my personal curiosity.  But the man who directs the forum has asked us to continue, and I am willing, if you are--at least for a few more days.

In order to save a lot of time and awkward fumbling, I must violate one of my cardinal rules and tell you a bit about myself.  I really prefer to let my comments stand or fall on their own worth and not be dismissed because people know I'm a janitor or revered because I'm a Nobel Laureate.  I am neither of those.  But until I retired in 1988 I was a professor at a major university in New England, and sociolinguistics was among my areas of interest and research.  I also did considerable work in the area of the impact of social, technological, political and economic change on school curriculum.  So I will have at least a passing acquaintance with most of the books you have read.

Lucy, JimH and Zev

David Riesman's work is a direct offshoot of Max Weber's.  He uses Weber's methodology, particularly typology, to try to characterize post-war American society.  For example, Riesman uses the term "other directed" to describe a type of individual whose prime motivation is the approval of others, a direct deriviative of Weber's "affective action" (social behavior based on emotional needs).  Weber's work on religion and society has renewed relevance today, particularly his book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism  It's an instructive reminder of how Christianity, which is at its core anti-materialistic and essentially socialistic, was turned into the handmaiden of materialism.

As to the grunting American teenager, this is closer to my own interests, and I have to resist launching into a dissertation.  It's part of a shift in language use and communications patterns that has been going on for some time but has been accelerated by both technological and occupational developments.  Increased reliance on visual images, increased tempo and pressure in the work place, a media-saturated environment, decreased time and emphasis on social intimacy, and a number of other factors have combined to foster the use of all sorts of linguistic "shorthands," through which we attempt to communicate by saying less and less (e.g. emoticons).  The dominant linguistic model in modern America is the language of advertising, which relies heavily on suggestion, allusion, inference, and connotation to repeat endlessly the same message: "buy me."  The language is almost entirely devoid of what used to be called "meaning" and is almost entirely aimed at triggering a variety of emotional responses.  We've now had two full generations of Americans raised in this linguistic environment and among the results is the virtually universal preference for narrative (conveying ideas through story), allusion to shared experience, and oral abbreviation, including, but certainly not limited to, grunts.

Case in point:  Notice how, in this forum, posters use song titles and song lyrics to substitute for their own words and ideas.  It's a form of linguistic currency that allows abbreviated communication.

Zev

I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your last message.

[zevele1]

Lucy
I AM NOT complaining about the posts from you and Tullio.I Ask for more

Tullio
Sometimes mind wanders and if you express only  part of the wandering,no one understand you

Reading posts from Lucy and you and asking for more,i was thinking how it is here

Because of the situation,there is no room for such topics as the one you and Lucy speak about
Just to deal with everyday life is the only goal

From time to time i feel i am in a kind of cultural desert here

[JimH]

I'm not sure that everyone knows where zevele is.  He lives in Israel.

Lucy, he is saying that life has been reduced to a minimal level, with few opportunities for complex expression of thought.  

At least, that's what I think he is saying.  The nice thing about zevele's English is that you must imagine some parts in order to fill in the gaps.

[KingSparta]

>> he is saying that life has been reduced to a minimal level
I don't think there has been a Homicide Bombing for what 11 days now.

Is that not a record?

Speaking Of Records

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56778,00.html

Listening to: 'Workin' On A Groovy Thing' from 'Up Up & Away (The Definitive' by '5Th Dimension' on Media Jukebox

PS: Looking For My "Up Up & Away" Mp3

[peleton]

It is because of threads like this one that I LOVE this forum.

I agree with you Zevele, sometimes life is too much about work and performance, such that people are becoming more and more "too busy to stop and smell the roses".  As tullio said, the world's preoccupation with economics,-of not only resourses, money, and time, but also economy of speach (or communication in general) has lead to us losing the meaning in the very things which once gave meaning to our lives. (eg: religion, work, etc...)

I think this Forum is less of a cultural desert than most software-related forums.
But if it is, then it is threads like this one that are a welcome spring.

p.

[zevele1]

JimH

Nothing to do with Zevele's english

It is just a Zevele problem.
I think very fast[maybe] and many times i just express part of it.In any language,when speaking or writing

But what you say is what i wanted to say

The problem is that it is like it since 1948,and i see it as a bigger danger than hamas bombs

Now they started to built a fence.Do not want to speak about good or wrong.

Just fast,fast to protect ourself from terrorists.Ok,but this fence is in the wild,not in towns.Do you think that anyone througth about all the animals living here?Of cause not

Speak about it around you,the answer? Are you mad to care about fox,wolfs,chacals,wild cats and others animals,it is OUR lifes put in the game,you ,i ,your family ,so ,sorry but no time for animals

King
No big bomb
But still small ones,still soldiers killed,still people dying 11 days or 30 or 60  after a bombing,still people shot when they drive
You get only the big stuff on tv

And people out of work |PLS|20%.In one month :electricity |PLS|8%-transports |PLS|
5%-petrol |PLS| 15 % and so on.Shops empty and closing.Even us[i mean my partners and i-even if i still not work] with days of instead of full next months full
Reserve duty up to 7 days more -37 days instead of 30
People call to army the week of they university exams.The list is without end

Today i brought a cd from a band i know.We are not friends ,but i know them.
And i saw on the sleeve'dedicated to the memory of URI xxxx'[member of the band]
h was killed in Jenin.Last time i spoke to him he told me they have
the record pressed,and the sleeve will be ready next week

I am not crying,far from it.Just to tell you that bombs are not the only criteria

Listening to: 'I Can Only Give You Everything' from 'From Nowhere & Trogglodynamite' by 'Troggs' on Media Jukebox

[tullio]

Zevele

I did understand the main point of your message.  It was some of the explanation that eluded me.

I can understand your feeling that intellectual life in Israel has come to a standstill, but I can assure you that it has not.  Every week Israeli scholars publish articles in professional journals on topics very much like those we have been discussing here.  The struggle for survival may have muted the intellectual voices, but it has not silenced them.  I firmly believe that, so long as there is a Jewish community anywhere, these voices will newer be silenced.

I grew up in the New York City area and had many, many Jewish friends.  I learned early the importance of questioning, analyzing, and debating in Jewish life.  I’m not speaking only of the Talmudic tradition, although that is certainly important, but of a more basic, culture-wide need to find the truth, to explain, to answer the question, “Why?”  It can be both a blessing and a curse.  I remember vividly after the war hearing stories from survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of how the debates went on endlessly, night after night, until they almost paralyzed people into inaction.  But blessing or curse it is an essential part of Jewish life.

I know I will never fully understand, nor certainly ever feel, what life has been in Israel for the past fifty years.  The killing, killing, killing; the raised hopes always followed by disappointment, the ever-present fear that becomes more terrible because it becomes normal.  The empty promises from those who offer to help.  And the constant uncertainty.  I try to imagine living this way, but imagination fails.  Yet despite all this bleakness, I think you might be surprised by the response you would get at the coffee shop if you were to ask, “What kind of a society do we want when this misery finally ends?”


JohnT

It’s not the worst I’ve ever seen, but it ranks pretty high.  If I remember correctly, homologous is a term from biology—something about pairs of cells carrying DNA.  In fact the term “homologous pairs” resonates in what is left of my memory.  I think she is trying to say something about a shift in relationships from pairs to single dominance.  Reading it in context might help.

This is a perfect example of what Socrates meant when he ranted against the invention of writing because it would allow words to be read by people for whom they were never intended.  This sort of academic gobbledygook is relatively harmless when circulated among academics.  It only becomes ludicrous when read by others.  Academics aren’t the only culprits.  I had a friend who was hired by engineers (notoriously insecure about their writing ability) to edit articles they were about to submit for publication.  She almost always met resistance when she tried to simplify the language.  The complaint was that changing a phrase such as “deactivate the power supply” to “turn it off” made the piece sound “unprofessional.”  And the engineers were probably right.  Other professionals could well confuse simple language with simplemindedness.

[zevele1]

Tullio

You are right in one way.And ,not knowing it, you put the finger on the problem
This people write in forein newspapers NEVER in israelis newspapers or magazines
Amos Hoz got prices in Germany,Italy but sells very few books here
A.B. Joshua,David Grossman an many more get more 'honors' abroad than here.They are never on television
The best movie makers [ they are very few i have to say] live in France,England,Germany
Most of modern artists make a living abroad ,not here

If there is a play asking questions,after a week,gone

You can make headlines and scandal as a young singer with a song:
"koulam medabrim a la shalom,af erad a la emet"

"Everyone speak about peace,no one speak about justice"
As you see ,no need for much

I see this as a big problem,the country do not get,do not built a kind of 'soul'.And the internal problems will be traited 'after'.
I am sure that US Universitys are not like 20 years before.But they are still a place where you think,you search

Here,because of the army,you start university when most people finish it abroad.Fee are very hight and aroud 90% of the students have a job
So university is just a place to learn.
Anyway the most brillant and rich learn abroad
The not brillant and rich also by the way.Someone no god enought to get admission to university here is a good student for most english universitys
The very few politicians with 'a view',who ask questions,are kind of aliens here.I do not means politicians i agree with only
Sure i miss the 'french way of thinking'-do not no if it is a good one,but it is my culture-
Sure i would like to be able to speak with people around me
But this is not the main point.I worry about such a situation,not for my confort ,but for the future of the country

It is not that difficult to deal with wars,bombs and so on

Like me you see,you saw people in Russia, in Sorevo and many places living in the mud,or in basement,no gaz,no water,no food.And you just cannot understand how they manage,how they deal with it
After years here i can tell you one thing:you get use to ANYTHING,you can deal with anything,life is stronger

Beside this life is not as bad as you may think here.There his a big big paradoxe here:the israeli society is a very safe one

No ,i am not mad,not yet
12 years old boys and girls go out alone at night,to coffe ,to concerts,to partys,to disco.They NEVER have a problem -except a bomb of cause
There is not rape,no figth,no one robing them
The banks are 'open'.Just a desk,no glass
The kiosks selling cigarettes,drinks,sweets are open all night.
They do not have a door,half of they stuff is outside on the sideway
We had only ONE serial rapist in 50 years
All the israeli society is like it
Because of it i can say that i feel safer than in Paris,in spite of bombs

Concerning the question about 'what kind of society',80% will tell you peace-money-get rid of the religious.
To get deeper answers means that they will have to learn how to to think about life not under stress

Anyway Tullio,my life is much much nicer than the first pictures of the movie "Philadelphia"

I really like to read your posts.Not only for the ideas but for your english.Like a stream with a nice sound

[JimH]

Zevele,
> English...like a stream

I agree on Tullio's.  Yours too.  Different, more rapid, lots of rocks.  Beautiful, in any case.

[Lucy]

HI, I just woke up and read the new articles on this topic. I have not brushed my teeth yet.

You guys have deep conversations. And I am surprised that elderly people there are also interested in mp3 and multimedia software!

Elderly people in Hong Kong are much less educated. They only speak. They rarely write. The elderly women (60|PLS|) here usually chat together in the partks. I almost don't understand the dialects they speak. Sometimes they play majong together.

As for old men, they like playing with small birds they own (Westerners own dogs and cats most?). Going out with friends to have  breakfast in Chinese restaurants. They would occupy there for 2 hours for just eating few DimSum. Otherwise they play Chinese chess in the park. They don't have chances to meet multimedia and computers. They won't want to touch a keyboard even if their sons or grand-daughters have one. Their ability to accept new ideas is limited. But I uderstand. Less educated people usually rely on tradition guide their lives. I think more educated people would be more open.

Zev, I am not familiar with Israel history. But media in Hong Kong usually report the news of there. I saw in the TV that the roads and streets are almost with no people. And many police there. On the other hand, I also saw a TV prgramme that talks about the lives of Chinese people in Israel. Some of them are working as construction workers. But some of them are owning supermarket business. So is there any places in Israel that is relatively less attacked? I think your people are strong. I want peace. I am not sure if peace is a myth. But here I wish your country peace in future.

[sekim]

Everyone,

Sorry for throwing this in here.

tullio,

How did Louisville go for you? Any progress?

[JimH]

Lucy,
Elderly?  I will try to be flattered.  We understand your intent, but perhaps you mean "adult" fish.  Elderly?  Next year.

If we send you a webcam, will you wear it?  I would like to see men playing with birds.

Jim

[tullio]

Lucy,

Good morning from the Ancient Marinaraner ( that's an allusion to a famous Engllish poem called "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and the fact that I'm of Italian extraction and pasta with marinara sauce is a popular Italian dish.  And since there are few things more tedious to read than an explanation of a pun, I should never have written it.  But compuslive scribblers can never resist writing down what seems to them a clever phrase.)

Riesman would describe your elderly as "tradition-directed," not an unusual orientation for the aged.  Given the turbulent times in which your 60  generation were born and raised, I'm not surprised at their lack of interest in technology and change.  Even though Hong Kong was not part of the mainland revolution, people there probably saw inough change in their early years to last them a lifetime.

I've always been under the impression that the elderly were highly respected and honored in Chinese society.  Have I been misinformed?Here in America we have treated old age as a disease, or at best an unfortunate experience.  This attitude is beginning to shify a bit as the baby-boomers age, but we still have a considerable number of women who have their faces frozen with botulism toxin in order to keep from wrinkling.

For some of us geezers computers are nothing new. I got my first one in 1980 or 1981.  You probably weren't born yet.


Machinehead

Thanks for asking.  I'm surprised you remembered.  We've had some success, but mostly we're on hold.  We had the Louisville Board of Aldermen won over, and they were about to introduce the ordinance, but we hit a snag.  Louisville voted to merge with the surrounding county into one political unit.  As of January next year the city will quadruple in size and the whole political structure will change.  So the current Board of Aldermen decided to defer action until the new and bigger board and new mayor take office next year.
On another front, we've made a bit of progress.  You may have heard of the effort by Florida tomato pickers to get an increase in wages by organizing a boycott of Taco Bell, one of the major consumers of the tomatoes they pick.  They haven't had a wage increase since 1972, and they are really hurting.  Taco Bell, along with Pizza Hut and Kentucky Fried Chicken are part of Tricom (now Yum!) which has its corporate headquarters here.  A few weeks ago we hosted a group of pickers who came up here to make a request for help at the annual stockholders meeting.  They made their pitch and were told, as we expected, that the company couldn't be responsible for the labor practices of its suppliers.  But then last week at its annual meeting the Presbyterian Church voted to back the boycott, and that gave us a big boost.  The amount of money involved is small.  The pickers are asking for an increase of one cent for each pound they pick, and the total cost to Taco Bell would amount to an increase of less than one cent per taco if they passed it on to their customers.  But the growers don't want to even recognize that the pickers have the right to negotiate.  They fear and hate unions with a passion.  To give you an idea of how entrenched this problem is, back in 1959 Edward R. Murrow did a powerful TV documentary showing the exploitation of these workers and the terrible conditions they were living in.  It's only margianlly better today.  The basic problem is that there is no national labor legislation that recognizes the right of farm laborers to organize.  The farm lobby has been able to have migrant workers excluded from every piece of labor legislation ever passed by the US Congress.

[sekim]

tullio,

Well, nice to hear you have made some progess in Louisville. Hope that pans out for you and all involved.

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but I, for one, am glad you are fighting the good fight. Labor does so much for this country with so little recognition that it deserves (needs ?) champions, such as yourself.

The appalling thing with the farmers vs. pickers is unbelievable. One cent? Is that even a real factor? Thirty years without a raise is even worse. Yet, I'll lay down a bet that says those same farmers are all driving new vehicles and live in a fairly decent shack. Of course, subsidized by the likes of you and me. Ick. There are things in this country that are not RIGHT. This is one. These people were, no doubt, lured here ( originally ) with the promise of a better life then what they had come from. What a joke that turned out to be.

But how people forget that they, or their anscestors, were also transplants themselves.

You certainly are what America is made of. We need more like you, tullio. Please, keep up the good work for the rest of us. Thank you.

[Lucy]

Hello tullio and machinehead!

How many dollars can tomato pickers earn per hour? Where are the tomato pickers from? I have heard that people who do farming industry in America can be very rich. They own farmland, crops, etc. But as you talked about the situation of the tomato pickers, it seems that there is a big variation in wages in the farming industry.

In China, even the owner (farmer) of a farm is not really rich, because the price of grain and vegetables a farmer can sell to the government and the free market is still low. Sometimes farmers would choose to grow commercial (economic) crops like corn, cotton, fruits, etc. And they would also choose to grow pigs, cows, chickens.

In Hong Kong, we have few farmers. Guess which job is lowestly paid?? It is crews in McDonald's! They only earn US$1.79 per hour. But a typical McDonald's value meal is US$2.37 here. Most people doing other jobs usually earn US$2.56 here.

[tullio]

Machinehead

Whoa!!  You give me far more credit than I deserve.  Applying a little pressure to a local alderman and providing lunch for a group of protesting farmworkers hardly qualifies me for Eugene V Debs status.  There was a group of people with the tomato pickers, mostly clergy and college students who had traveled with them from town to town picketing Taco Bells and pleading their case.  These are the people who are on the front line and doing the job.  I'm just a guy who pitches in a little when he can.

Actually, my front-line fight is closer to home.  I live in a condo in an upscale neighborhood.  Pewee Reese had a unit in the building across the street.  The owners are all well-heeled, but refuse to pay our staff a decent wage or provide any benefits.  For four years my wife and I have been badgering the condo board to do the right thing, and, although we've won a couple of wage increases, the scale is still pitifully low (just about minimum wage) and there are no benefits in sight.  So we're now considering bringing in SEIU, the jamitor's union (of which I am a member--long story) to organize them.  We're hoping the threat of a strike, picket lines and a lot of adverse publicity, with a consequent potential for a drop in property values, might loosen the purse strings.

Zev

Stream with a nice sound. . . ?  More like a babbling brook.

Lucy,

Like many farm workers, these pickers are not paid an hourly wage.  They earn 40 cents for each 32 pound bucket (~15 kg) of tomatoes they pick.  In order to earn $50 in a day, they have to pick 4000 pounds (~1800 kg) of tomtaoes.  Most pick much less than that.  The median income for an American farm worker is $7500 a year.  Most of these workers come from Latin America, particularly Central America.  Some come voluntarily in search of a bettter life.  Others are recruited in their home countries by labor brokers who get them to sign binding contracts with promises of a good life in the US.  It is a national disgrace, or should be.  But after all these years, these workers are still outside the legal protection granted other American laborers.

You can get more information at www.ciw-online.org , including a report of the latest case of slavery charges brought against Florida growers just a few days ago.

[sekim]

tullio,

The teflon act don't work with me. You seem to divert this with the ease of a drainage ditch. I'm sure that the ones reading between the lines see more also.

[KingSparta]

>> I would like to see men playing with birds.
You Can See That On Any X Rated Site

[Lucy]

King Sparta,

I guess "X-rated" means pronographic.

Are you serious or just joking?

Old men in Hong Kong playing with birds mean that most of them own a bird as a pet (the bird lives in a bird cage)and in the morning they would gather together to see their birds sing and which one sings loudest. The master of the loudest bird would then feel proud. Or the men would share information about their birds. What's wrong with this?!

They do that just like women showing off their jewelry. Of course the men are not women. But I am just making metaphor.

My grandfather owned a bird before he passed away. I was very interested in the bird when I was small. It only sang in the monring. I usually looked at its acts and moves. It was active and jumping often (maybe it did not want to be in a cage)? I once surprised it by moving my head fast in front of the cage and cried "WOW--"...It even jumped fast and often and cried loud.

Now I think I was very foolish.

[KingSparta]

>> Are you serious or just joking?
Joking

[Lucy]

I would like to respond to some questions by tullio.

1. Are Chinese old people respected and honored in Hong Kong? Yes and no. Most people here do respect old people. If an old woman get on a bus and say "I haven't enough coins", the bus driver still let her in. If she doesn't know which stop she should get off, the bus driver also would guide her. If I am in lift and its door is about to close but an old man is coming slowly, I would still wait until he enter the lift. I remember one time.....I was eating congee in a restuarant. An old man in his 70s came to use the same table as I used. That means we were face to face direction. He gradually raised some topics. But I did not know him at all. But I still gave him some response and listened. He said he just came back from USA. He also said he was a painter of traditional Chinese painting. He said he has lots of students but was boycotted by other painters. Although I felt strange that an old strange man would want to talk to me, I still listened. At the end, he gave me a card which printed his full name and several titles: Arthur M. Sackler Museum of Art and Archaeology at Peking University Adviser, Author of "Chung Yi Tang" Book I, Connoirsseur in Chao Chi's Paintings, Emperor of Hui Tsung of Sung.....etc. Then he left.I was dumbstruck.

Let me get to the point. Most people in Hong Kong take care of their parents even they do not live together. But the number of poor old people living alone is also increasing. This is a major characteristics of overdeveloped old districts in Hong Kong. In those old districts, when children grew up, those narrow and crowded flats could no longer satisfy them. The moved out of their parents' houses. But they then rarely come back and contact their parents. (this phenonmenon is strangely serious is old districts). Those parents (now they become old people) can't afford to move to better places. So they just stay in their extra small flats for several decades. Their spouses die. They live alone. I visited one government public estate before. Those buildings are old and weak. And gangs and drug addicts sometimes hang in those places. The living environment for old people is really bad. I and a theology student (We were working together for our paper on Social Problems) went to talk to a social worker who worker there. She said that the Government have built a new public estate for the old people in a near district. Yes I know that that district is a good place. It will then move all the old people there.

But things did not stop here. Those old people are worried about their move. Some fear high rent. Some are afraid of using lifts (yes they are afraid because the build they used to stay do not have lifts. They don't have much chances using lifts). Some get anxious that they haven't enough money to hire people help them move their belongings and furniture. Their children won't help them. Only social workers and voluntary workers. We used social disorganization and cultural lag to be our theme. The old people there seems don't know what is happening NOW and still chatting together about the Japanese occupation of Hong Kong during the Second World War.

The social worker also told us that she would discuss with the Government to settle the old people on lower floors of the new estate.

But in general, people in Hong Kong still listen to old people.

[Lucy]

Hey i have several questions more want to answer. But let me better organise them first

[tullio]

Lucy,

It's sad to learn that the old fare no better in Hong Kong than they do in the US.  We, too, have a sizable number of children who place their aged parents in homes for the elderly and then forget about them.

I realize that your personal experience is with Hong Kong, but as a sociology student perhaps you know a bit about mainland China also.  Are the elderly treated any differently there, especially among rural people?  Because Hong Kong has adopted so much from high-tech Western culture, I wonder about the similarities to and differences from life in the mainland.  I am also curious about how the merger of Hong Kong with the mainland government has affected life there.  From all that I read in the newspapers, all seems to have gone more smoothly than expected.  But newspaper accounts tend to deal with large institutions and organizations more than with the lives of ordinary people.  I would be interested to hear your observations.

Thanks for all your insights into your world.  I, and I'm sure many others in this forum, will be happy to share our (very divergent) views on life in America.

[Holden]

This is a great thread and I have enjoyed reading it all.

Lucy, you said: "You guys have deep conversations. And I am surprised that elderly people there are also interested in mp3 and multimedia software!"

I spend many hours each day on my computer with over 100 different programs of a varying nature. My banking and bill paying, income tax, etc., are all taken care of this way. I have over 11,000 mp3 files on two drives and have used several different jukeboxes. None compares to Media Jukebox which is the only one I use now. I will be 80 next month. My problem is that many friends in my age bracket don't have computers.

So you are right in feeling surprise that older people generally have little interest in technology.

I've learned a lot about Hong Kong life from you as well as much of interest from Tullio on subjects that are beyond my full understanding. So I'm looking forward to future posts from both of you.

Holden

[Charlemagne 8]

The coolness of actually talking to someone from China about everyday things is way too intense to express. I am totally blown away.
I actually used to talk that way ... thirty years ago.
The message is still the same. This is absolutely wonderful.
CVIII

[JimH]

I second C8's "blown away" comment.

If you're looking for Zevele's remarks that were provoked by Holden, I've moved them to a new thread because I think they're strong enough to stand alone.

[and now back to the I Love Lucy Show]

[sekim]

>>>> The coolness of actually talking to someone from China about everyday things is way too intense to express. <<<<

Not to belittle here, but the coolness of being able to communicate with anyone worldwide is intense. There really are things about the Internet that I like, this one.