Topic: Can Wasapi run in exclusive mode with the Musiland Monitor 01 US? (Read 19606 times)

DBB · « **on:** January 11, 2010, 06:24:41 pm »

I use the Musiland Monitor 01 US which is a USB device that outputs to SPDIF from 16/44 to 24/192. I am using Windows 7. I have been running Wasapi and I think it sounds pretty good, but if I am reading the posts correctly, it is not being maximized unless it runs in the exclusive mode. Every time I check "Open device for exclusive access" I get an error message "Play back could not be started on the output WASAPI using format [all of them] The output format may not be supported by your hardware" Everything runs fine and sounds good when I uncheck the exclusive mode.

Is it possible something is preventing exclusive mode ? Anything to do in the sound control panel to allow exclusive mode? I did check boxes to allow it. Is another program grabbing it?

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2010, 05:48:52 am »

WASAPI in shared mode uses the Windows audio engine, just like when you use DS
WASAPI in exclusive mode bypasses the audio engine.
See the diagram on this page: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/VistaTweak.htm
As it is Exclusive, only one program can use the soundcard.
As the audio engine is now out of the way, the audio is send straight to the soundcard.
No resampling is applied.
As a consequence, the audio must match the capabilities of the soundcard exactly.
You probably need to set 24 bits in the DSP studio to obtain this
For a example: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC14_audio.htm

gappie · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2010, 05:58:47 am »

i like your website, mr Kars. very informative.

gab

DBB · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:33:51 am »

Thanks for the reply Vincent.

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 12, 2010, 05:48:52 am

As it is Exclusive, only one program can use the soundcard.

How can I tell if another program is using the sound card? I suspect this might be it. I just set up this computer with a fresh install of Windows 7. Could Microsoft Media Player somehow be grabbing the sound card even though it is not running?

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 12, 2010, 05:48:52 am

As a consequence, the audio must match the capabilities of the soundcard exactly.
You probably need to set 24 bits in the DSP studio to obtain this
For a example: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC14_audio.htm

I tried it it. It didn't work. Any more ideas?

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:45:01 am »

As you do have a Musiland and onboard audio, set system wide playback default to the onboard audio.
Now all apps should use the onboard audio.
Set MC 14 to the Musiland, now it should be the only one using it.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:46:29 am »

Quote from: gappie on January 12, 2010, 05:58:47 am

i like your website, mr Kars. very informative.

gab

Thanks Gab

Vincent

DBB · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:50:54 am »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 12, 2010, 06:45:01 am

As you do have a Musiland and onboard audio, set system wide playback default to the onboard audio.
Now all apps should use the onboard audio.
Set MC 14 to the Musiland, now it should be the only one using it.

I appreciate your efforts Vincent. I am using a new computer and only loaded the Windows 7 and the programs a few days ago. I just tried your suggestion and it didn't work in exclusive mode. (By the way, I need to upsample to 24 or 32/192 to make all sampling rates play) I then disconnected the Musiland and tried with just the on board spdif out. It still didn't work in exclusive mode, but as before it worked fine when the exclusive mode was not checked. Am I missing some basic setting?

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:56:50 am »

This might help:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

DBB · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:18:48 am »

Quote from: Matt on January 12, 2010, 08:56:50 am

This might help:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

The Wiki says to try "source sample rate" in DSP mode. Still didn't work. It seems no matter what I try, if I check "Open device for exclusive access ", I get the error message I originally described. I don't think it is incompatibility with the DAC since the Musiland works with my out board DAC and I don't think the on board spdif drive/sound card should have an incompatibility, it also works fine outside of exclusive mode.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:22:21 am »

DBB
Have you enabled "exclusive control" in the windows sound panel?
See http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC14_audio.htm

Matt
It is nice to know that the models as mentioned in the WiKi work but it don't tell the user what the right settings are.
Feel free to scrape the link above for a couple of screen shots when using Benchmark DAC 1

DBB · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:27:29 am »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 12, 2010, 09:22:21 am

DBB
Have you enabled "exclusive control" in the windows sound panel?
See http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC14_audio.htm

Yes, I checked both boxes.

Alex B · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:49:08 am »

It is an interesting device. However, the manufacturer's driver support may not be the best possible.

There's a mile-long thread about it at Head-Fi: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-01-usd-24-192-usb-spdif-423960/. I didn't read all replies, but some driver issues were reported.

Do you have an ASIO driver for the device? If yes, does it work with MC?

DBB · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:19:55 am »

Quote from: Alex B on January 12, 2010, 09:49:08 am

It is an interesting device. However, the manufacturer's driver support may not be the best possible.

There's a mile-long thread about it at Head-Fi: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-01-usd-24-192-usb-spdif-423960/. I didn't read all replies, but some driver issues were reported.

Do you have an ASIO driver for the device? If yes, does it work with MC?

Yes, the Musiland works fine with ASIO and in direct sound and WASPI when not in exclusive mode. Even more troubling is that I get the same results with the on board sound device and driver. Could I be making some basic knuckle-head set up mistake? I think I followed Vincents setup advice correctly.

The other "processes" as appears in the Task Manager that are running are Firefox, Explorer, Google tool bar, and MacAfee. Could there be any issues here?

PS I looked in Task Manager and found that the Musiland driver was still running even when I disconected the hardware and ran the on board sound card and driver. I renamed it and rebooted it. It was out on the reboot, but still I could not get WASAPI to run in exclusive mode. Same as before.

DBB · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2010, 05:18:37 pm »

Looks like the brain trust is stumped. I tried switching from toslink to coax. Same. Every time I try exclusive mode I get the error message no matter what the settings. The only positive is that the non-exclusive and presumably non-bit-perfect WASAPI sounds slightly sweeter than bit perfect ASIO.

gappie · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2010, 05:27:31 pm »

Quote from: DBB on January 12, 2010, 05:18:37 pm

Looks like the brain trust is stumped. I tried switching from toslink to coax. Same. Every time I try exclusive mode I get the error message no matter what the settings. The only positive is that the non-exclusive and presumably non-bit-perfect WASAPI sounds slightly sweeter than bit perfect ASIO.

have you read through the link alex posted. seems like a driver issue to me, but who knows.

and when you prefer the non-exclusive wasapi above asio, i doubt if the exclusive wasapi mode will do you any good, but who knows.

gab

DBB · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2010, 06:34:04 pm »

Quote from: gappie on January 12, 2010, 05:27:31 pm

have you read through the link alex posted. seems like a driver issue to me, but who knows.

and when you prefer the non-exclusive wasapi above asio, i doubt if the exclusive wasapi mode will do you any good, but who knows.

gab

I did look at that link. It is huge, 49 pages. Is there anything there that you specifically think would be helpful? I thought I eliminated the possibility of it being a Musiland problem since I removed the Monitor 01 USD device and had the exact same problem with the on-board device and drivers. To be sure, I guess the next step will be to completely uninstall the Musiland rather than putting a "rem" in the driver file name.

I don't know if I would prefer WASAPI in exclusive mode, but I assume you integrated it into your program because it sounds better than ASIO. If not what is the point? I guess all bit perfect is not equal.

At any rate, one of the reasons I upgraded to Windows 7 and a new computer was to try WASAPI in exclusive mode, given all the praise it has received. It is very disappointing that I can't make it work and so far the experts here are stumped.

gappie · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2010, 03:50:06 am »

Quote from: DBB on January 12, 2010, 06:34:04 pm

I don't know if I would prefer WASAPI in exclusive mode, but I assume you integrated it into your program because it sounds better than ASIO. If not what is the point? I guess all bit perfect is not equal.

im just a humble user.

but i guess wasapi was included because it is part of windows options for playback.
about that thread. i just looked a bit at the last page. apparently the latest drivers should work: 1.0.7.0, although some posts mention a firmware update.
what driver do you use?

gab

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2010, 03:57:40 am »

Eliminating possible causes by removing them one at the time is probably the only ‘solution’ left.
You might try the Device Manager and check which sound devices are active
You might try Foobar to eliminate a possible bug in MC
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/Foobar.htm

Alex B · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2010, 05:20:26 am »

Quote from: DBB on January 12, 2010, 06:34:04 pm

I did look at that link. It is huge, 49 pages. Is there anything there that you specifically think would be helpful? I thought I eliminated the possibility of it being a Musiland problem since I removed the Monitor 01 USD device and had the exact same problem with the on-board device and drivers. To be sure, I guess the next step will be to completely uninstall the Musiland rather than putting a "rem" in the driver file name.

As I said, I didn't read through it. It really isn't for me because I don't have a Musiland device.

Quote

I don't know if I would prefer WASAPI in exclusive mode, but I assume you integrated it into your program because it sounds better than ASIO. If not what is the point? I guess all bit perfect is not equal.

My opinion is that the various output options are useful for finding the best combination of settings for a particular usage scenario and HW setup. The audio quality differences are supposed to vary from minimal to none. Especially ASIO and WASAPI Exclusive produce exactly the same output quality (= unaltered) if the drivers work correctly and any possibly existing digital signal processing on the sound device is disabled or bypassed.

Quote

At any rate, one of the reasons I upgraded to Windows 7 and a new computer was to try WASAPI in exclusive mode, given all the praise it has received. It is very disappointing that I can't make it work and so far the experts here are stumped.

Windows 7 and MC14 are great products and they have a lot to offer. You shouldn't worry too much about this particular output mode. ASIO is bit perfect. WASAPI Exclusive would not be any different and it has the same usability limitations. If you prefer to use the Windows 7 mixer and audio engine you can select any of the other modes that work.

DBB · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2010, 06:55:09 am »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 13, 2010, 03:57:40 am

Eliminating possible causes by removing them one at the time is probably the only ‘solution’ left.
You might try the Device Manager and check which sound devices are active
You might try Foobar to eliminate a possible bug in MC
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/Foobar.htm

Very nice website Vincent. I did check the device manager. This is unfamiliar territory to me, but if I read it correctly the sound devices look correct. My next step will be to uninstall the Musiland driver, and physically remove it. If that doesn't work I will try uninstalling Audacity which I downloaded a few days ago. If that doesn't work, I will probably give up. (How long can an obsession remain healthy?) I will stick with J River since I have a large collection of classical files that have been laboriously entered with custom tags.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2010, 07:40:53 am »

In the Device manager, locate the Musiland and disable it and reboot
If this won't help, deinstall it and reboot.

Audacity, very doubtfull if deinstalling will make a difference.

Foobar, I won't recommand to swap MC for Foobar but you might give it a try to to check if it is a possible bug in MC

Alex B · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2010, 08:13:08 am »

Here's link a link to a simple player that can be used as an alternative player when testing the output modes:

http://naudio.codeplex.com/

It is just a small demo application for .net developers, but the output mode settings are nicely available in the UI (and that's about all it provides).

For the record, its ASIO mode doesn't work with my device (the program crashes). However, the WASAPI modes work fine.

DBB · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2010, 08:31:30 am »

Quote from: Alex B on January 13, 2010, 08:13:08 am

Here's link a link to a simple player that can be used as an alternative player when testing the output modes:

It is just a small demo application for .net developers, but the output mode settings are nicely available in the UI (and that's about all it provides).

For the record, its ASIO mode doesn't work with my device (the program crashes). However, the WASAPI modes work fine.

Alex: Thanks, I'll give it a try, if disabling the Musiland driver doesn't work. Is changing the name of the Musiland driver component that shows up in "processes" sufficient? I already did that to no avail?

Vincent: By the way, do you think there is any difference in sound between WASAPI in exclusive mode vs ASIO? Am I on a fool's errand?

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2010, 08:46:33 am »

Renaming in general won't help you much.
Those name are for our convenience, internally probably a GUID or so is used.

I have no ASIO gear at home, so I can’t tell you if it differs from WASAPI or not.
Both offer the same type of functionality, low latency by bypassing the Win audio stack.
But I know that there are people who even claim to hear audible differences between versions (ASIO4All, not real asio but kernel streaming)
Enjoy: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/ASIO.htm

Alex,
Nice link, will try

Alex B · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:18:14 am »

Technically ASIO and WASAPI Exclusive are very similar. They both bypass the Windows mixer & audio processor and transmit whatever audio stream the player program produces.

It would be a very odd sound device if it would apply some kind of post-processing that differs depending on if the player uses ASIO or WASAPI Exclusive. Some sound devices actually have HW DSP features, but if they are disabled or identicallly set there should be no difference between these two modes.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2010, 10:48:42 am »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 13, 2010, 08:46:33 am

I have no ASIO gear at home, so I can’t tell you if it differs from WASAPI or not.
Both offer the same type of functionality, low latency by bypassing the Win audio stack.
But I know that there are people who even claim to hear audible differences between versions (ASIO4All, not real asio but kernel streaming)

Both WASAPI and ASIO are used to pass an unaltered bitstream to the device, where it is decoded. So their output is identical and the sound would be identical unless the device has introduced a problem.

Some USB DAC's will produce a slight ticking sound if they are not set up correctly. Maybe that's what you are referring to. Here's a link on setup:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

CMiner · « **Reply #26 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:37:35 am »

I was having the same problem with my Empirical Audio Offramp until...I set the buffer to less than 2 seconds. That seems to be the magic number for me.

Curt

DBB · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2010, 02:07:17 pm »

Thanks. I tried it at your suggestion. Dodn't work. I think I'll give up.

Armaegis · « **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2010, 04:51:14 pm »

I had a similar problem with a different usb dac. The problem went away when I manually set the output format (in my case: 2 channel, 16 bit, 44.1 kHz... I think ultimately it was setting it to 2-channel which fixed it)

DBB · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2010, 05:51:03 pm »

Thanks. I have had the output mode on two channels. I just tried playing with that as wel at bit depth and sampling rate. Didn't work.

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #30 on:** February 18, 2010, 09:16:08 am »

There is definite problem using MC14 and USB DACs in exclusive mode w/ WASAPI. I need to find the other thread and report in.

I tried Peachtree Nova and Musland 01 with WASAPI; same problems reported here, and elsewhere on the fourm.

I had a HiFace but they don't have a working driver for x64 windows 7 yet. Tweaked all options in the Wiki.

JR, if you want to buy my Musiland for beta testing let me know ; )

hifi

JimH · « **Reply #31 on:** February 18, 2010, 09:18:49 am »

From the wiki:

Options > Playback > Audio Use WASAPI Output

Inside "Output mode settings..." for WASAPI Checked: Open device for exclusive access Unchecked: Present 24-bit data in a 32-bit package

DSP Studio > Output Format Bitdepth: 24-bit Channels: Source number of channels Sample rate: Depends (with an outboard DAC, try "Source sample rate")

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #32 on:** February 18, 2010, 09:21:33 am »

Quote from: HiFiTubes on February 18, 2010, 09:16:08 am

There is definite problem using MC14 and USB DACs in exclusive mode w/ WASAPI. I need to find the other thread and report in.

I tried Peachtree Nova and Musland 01 with WASAPI; same problems reported here, and elsewhere on the fourm.

I had a HiFace but they don't have a working driver for x64 windows 7 yet. Tweaked all options in the Wiki - like everyone else

JR, if you want to buy my Musiland for beta testing let me know ; )

hifi

ajowers · « **Reply #33 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:15:02 pm »

I just thought I would relate my experiences thus far. I built a Zotac Mainboard HTPC. I purchase the Musiland Monitor 02 with latest firmware. I installed MC14.

I had troubles with the then latest driver which I believe is 1.0.7. I tried various things, then installed ASIO4ALL. I noticed cpu was way up there while playing flacs and if I played with the computer GUI-wise I would hear pops and clicks.

CoolFunGadget (off eBay) emailed me about the newer driver 1.0.8 (I think). I uninstalled the current driver then loaded the latest. I uninstalled ASIO4ALL.

Under Tools| Playback options, I was able to select Musiland as the ASIO "device". In otherwords the latest driver installs as ASIO.

After I did this I have not had a SINGLE problem. Everything plays perfectly. CPU usage is around 2-5% during playback....

I am very happy with this set up. I bought the Zotac board from NewEgg. Its the single Core Atom 1.6Ghz Fanless processor with out built in wireless. It has HDMI output, etc... very nice and it was only $99. I added 1 GB Ram, and put it in a small chassis with DVDRW (5")and 250GB HD (3.5). The only fan is a tiny fan in the power supply which makes no noise at all. The system does not overheat.

I have an MC Remote attached to the system and plugged in a Belkin USB WIFI adaptor.

I do not have a mouse or keyboasrd but instead installed VNC under Windows 7. From my main computer I can remote in and control it, change settings and even copy new FLAC over the network into my music folder.

I must say I have heard some clicks during play back on downloaded FLAC files. AS always I back up and replay the segment and in every case thus far the click repeats in the exact same spot. I feel good that its a file corruption and not a set up or driver issue.

IF you have any questions about the build or set up let me know. I run the output of the Monitor 02 into my Audio Refinment Integrated system. I have a pair of Totems and a PSB sub. The whole set up is convenient and sounds great. I have been listening for 2 months now. I frequently perform flip flops against a CD in my AR system against the same track on the MC14 and I can not hear much of a difference. In fact I lean towards the Monitor 02 as better than my CD player.

Question: Can you rip a CD while in Theater Mode ?

JimH · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2010, 02:25:07 pm »

Thanks for the report with all the details.

You can rip with TheaterView. Just go to "DVD" and hit Enter.

DBB · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2010, 02:52:44 pm »

AN UPDATE. Wasapi now does run with my Musiland Monitor 01 US with the current version of JRiver. I used the 24 bit setting in the DSP studio and set the output mode buffering to "more responsive" .60 seconds.

The reduction in buffer size as suggested earlier seemed to do the trick; it did not work in earlier versions of JRiver 14.

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Author Topic: Can Wasapi run in exclusive mode with the Musiland Monitor 01 US? (Read 19606 times)