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[vagskal]

I have a list type field with all album artists (Album Artists) and a list type field with all track artists and composers as well as all album artists (Artist-Composer). What I want to do is having a pane view with a pane showing only album artists and when clicking on one album artist I would see a file list listing all tracks where that album artist is Album Artist, Track Artist or Composer. I know that almost anything can be done with MC, but I cannot figure out how to achieve this. Any hints would be appreciated.

[Vincent Kars]

Try this one: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57477.0

[vagskal]

Try this one: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57477.0

Thanks for the link to the other thread, but I already have calculated list type fields with all Album Artists and all track artists and composers as well as all album artists:

Code: [Select]

replace(ListCombine(ListCombine([artist],[Composer]),ListCombine([albumartist],[album artist])),/|,;)&datatype=[list]
What I would need is something that works like the opposite to the ListCombine() function (ListExclude()?). The IsEqual() function does not work for me with list type fields, and I have not found any way to use the ListItem() function since I do not know which item number in the list type field that matches an album artist.

Useful thread though (the one you referred to). I wish it had existed before I started to work out on my own how to combine fields. I might use the method for comparing each word you propose in the thread to clean up my composer tags, which are a mixture of full names, name(s) with middle names spelled out or just with an initial and names with just the initial(s). Those inconsistencies are hard to find in just a long alphabetic list (with +30k names).

[MusicHawk]

clean up my composer tags, which are a mixture of full names, name(s) with middle names spelled out or just with an initial and names with just the initial(s). Those inconsistencies are hard to find in just a long alphabetic list (with +30k names).

My solution to this is a view GROUPED on Composers. This custom field is list-type field, much more versatile than the stock Composer field.

The view combines all names that are identical, so shrinks it way down, making similar-but-different names (and typos) easier to spot. It's possible to edit the values directly in the tree (vs. in the view), so I can fix most items right there.

Also, by using a list-type field, when I tag a track's Composers, the list pops up so I can select the same form of the name already used, maintaining consistency.

List-type also makes it possible to tag a track with multiple composers, which is more common than not in pop music.

And, my Composers data is Lastname, Firstname, very helpful when I don't know the first name of a composer at the moment. By entering only the known Lastname the person still gets put in the right place in the list. If/when I later determine the full name, I go to that person in the Composers view's TREE, edit the one instance, and it updates all the tracks.

[vagskal]

Thanks for the reply!

My solution to this is a view GROUPED on Composers. This custom field is list-type field, much more versatile than the stock Composer field.

The composer field I use is already a list type field (in the expression I provided I use the standard composer field just to combine it with several other fields into one "master" list type field with all the persons involved in my music).

The view combines all names that are identical, so shrinks it way down, making similar-but-different names (and typos) easier to spot.

The +30k entries I referred to were already unique single persons/bands after I have gone through the alphabetic list and corrected the obvious misspellings that can be easily spotted in an alphabetic list using surname and then last name (i.e. Césaria Évora / Césaria Evora; artists/composers using different names are handled by entering all names - except in the "master" album list where I choose just one name - examples are John Cougar Mellencamp, Chester Arthur Burnett/Howlin' Wolf/Chester Burnett and Bettye LaVette/Betty LaVette; aliases are handled the same way, Will Oldham/Bonnie "Prince" Billy/Palace Music etc., but Prince is always just Prince ). I realise now that this would have been easier if I had just "Last Name, First Name" instead...

Also, by using a list-type field, when I tag a track's Composers, the list pops up so I can select the same form of the name already used, maintaining consistency.

I have some +23k unique persons in just the composer list type field. I use the tag delimiter from my file tags which is "|" and that means that every combination of composers (i.e. every combination of "Lamont Dozier | Eddie Holland | Brian Holland | Edward Holland Jr." / "Eddie Holland | Lamont Dozier | Brian Holland | Edward Holland Jr.", etc.) shows up for me in the pop up list (which consequently consists of considerably more than +23k items). I therefore do not use that pop up list for the artist and composer fields. Or do you mean that the pop up list shows only list items (i.e. "Eddie Holland" and "Edward Holland Jr.") that I can choose several from if I use the standard list delimiter ; instead? That would be a relief. (Some may call me obsessive with my tags but it has not gone as far as to try to adjust all artist/composer items just to have them in the exact same order in each tag...)

And, my Composers data is Lastname, Firstname, very helpful when I don't know the first name of a composer at the moment. By entering only the known Lastname the person still gets put in the right place in the list. If/when I later determine the full name, I go to that person in the Composers view's TREE, edit the one instance, and it updates all the tracks.

I have already admitted that it would have been more useful to apply your approach with Last Name, First Name, but I did not... Do you mean that it is possible to change all instances of an item in a list by just typing another name for that item in the Tree list even if there are multiple items (composers) for one track when using the standard ; as a list delimiter? If that is the case I did not realise it and I do not use the tree for browsing artists, album artists, composers, albums and track titles because of the length of such lists.

[Vincent Kars]

What you probably need is something like a search expression.
If you select ThisArtist then an  expression like
Artist=ThisArtist
Album artist=ThisArtist
Composer=ThisArtist

I haven’t the slightest idea  if is possible to use the selected item as a parameter in a search expression

[MusicHawk]

Yes, in a list-type field, using the standard semi-colon provides lots of benefits.

Say several records have two items in a single list-type field: "Name-A;Name-B". In the tree (nav on the left, or via panes at the top), go to "Name-A" and directly in the tree change it to "Name-C", and in both records it gets changed -- but "Name-B" in the same field of the same records is not touched. Very cool. (The same can be done in the view by selecting appropriate records and editing the field in the view or Tag window.)

I find list-type Composers to be very helpful in assigning names to tracks. First benefit: Names are added/changed/removed automatically by MC based on existing record values. So the list is self-building.

Second, it is easy to identify a track as having multiple composers. My list already has "Dozier, Lamont", "Holland, Eddie", and "Holland, Brian", so for a Holland - Dozier - Holland composition I just click all three. This lets me assign the same names to other tracks where they had different collaborators. Similarly, by assigning applicable names to each track I can find all the songs composed by Richard Rogers with Hart, Hammerstein, and/or by himself. (Perhaps your list of composers would be much smaller via this method.)

Of course, using a custom delimiter has some advantages, notably that MC doesn't touch it, and it can be manipulated by expressions... only to a point where the available expressions aren't sufficient.

If you decide you want to remodel your list of composers, perhaps to change the delimiter or do other manipulation, you might find useful the painful workaround of exporting to XML, editing externally, then importing. Mainly it is a way to make changes that MC's expressions and Find+Replace can't do. IF it works for you, it might be a way to revise your Composer values. The challenge is that the exported file can be huge (100MB in my case) because it includes every field value, so it's tough to get a word processor or other editor to load it, let you work, then resave it. I tried several and found Microsoft Wordpad to do the job (to my surprise), though I still had time for lunch while the file loaded. (My need was to edit the Image File field since I was relocating my cover art folder.) Be sure to make a library backup first, and check the result carefully.

[vagskal]

Yes, in a list-type field, using the standard semi-colon provides lots of benefits.

I made a new test library with a copy of some thousands of files and changed the delimiter in all tags to ; and altered all expressions in MC to use the standard delimiter. And voilà all of a sudden I had all functionality you talk about. I did not know that it mattered whether you used the standard or a custom delimiter. Thanks!

(Changing the delimiter in all my files will trigger backup operations that will last a couple of days and involve manually fetching and returning an off site ftp backup copy, so I will wait a bit and test some more before I do this on my main library...)

One issue I noticed is that if I change a list field using the panes the items get automatically sorted in alphabetical order. It looks really nice and therefore appeals to me. But if I have a track by one artist featuring another artist I set the latter artist as the last item to indicate this and have the artists displayed in that order during playback. I guess I in that case I will have to manually alter the order of items in that field.

Another issue I noticed is that pane tagging does not work for fields with calculated data using the ListCombine() function (although all combined fields are list type fields). Is this a limitation or am I doing something wrong?

[MusicHawk]

But if I have a track by one artist featuring another artist I set the latter artist as the last item to indicate this and have the artists displayed in that order during playback. I guess I in that case I will have to manually alter the order of items in that field.

To identify the performers of a recording, I use two fields: the standard field Artist, and custom field Artists.

In Artist I put the exact text of the original recording, so it might be "Bubba featuring Blowhard" or whatever. Custom field Artists is list-type, and in it I select all the performer names I want associated with the track, so in this case "Bubba; Blowhard". If a different recording's label says "The Bubba and Blowhard Band", that goes in Artist, and in Artists I again select "Bubba; Blowhard"

MC generally orders the values in a list-type field alphabetically if added via the sorted pick list, but not always (I wish it automatically sorted). I think the values are in the order they appear in the edit field at the top of the picklist, but adjusting that doesn't always stick and sometimes flips to alpha. There's probably an exact way it behaves, needs more experimentation. (Or JR could explain)

Note that in my real Artists field, all names are Lastname, Firstname, and/or Groupname.

Why I do this method: I can have it both ways. I have an Artists view with everything in nice alpha order, and with virtual records for every name in the Artists field. For instance I could find "Help!" under B - Beatles, L - Lennon, John, M - McCartney, Paul (if I chose to tag Beatles recordings that way, which I don't).

In parallel, the standard Artist field always has the "real" name, and this is what I display in my playback visualization: "The Beatles"

Essentially, Artists is my private library organization and management field, and Artist is my public playback display field.

I haven't needed ListCombine(), so don't know its quirks.

[vagskal]

Thanks for the reply. Your approach sounds interesting and I do something similar for artists with name variations and duos. The name I put in the Album Artist tag is always normalised (John Mellencamp, Robert Cray, Ike & Tina Turner) so that I easily can browse all albums by an artist an not unnecessarily clutter the list of album artists. In the Artist tag I use the name used for that recording (John Cougar, Robert Cray Band, Ike Turner; Tina Turner). For basic information like artist I like to stick to the standard tags, because it works best with my player of choice (Squeezeboxes).

Btw anyone having any hint regarding the initial question?

[gappie]

Btw anyone having any hint regarding the initial question?

i think what you want cant be done. mc is a flat database, so, lets say, MrC is in one field, album artist, of one record, there is no connection what so ever to a MrC value in an other field, composer, of an other record. when you make a pane where you get all the values for album artists only, the file list will only show the records where this value is in (there is one exception to this rule and that is using full album, but that wont help).

now what you can do, is make a calculated field that combines all the fields you want to look in with listcombine incuding album artists and call it for instance "all Artists".
now make a view with two panes. in the first put the album artists in the second all artists. make sure 'filter in both directions' is checked.

now when you choose MrC in the first pane the second pane will give a list with all people that are in all the other fields, choose for instance, mrc there also (or what ever you like). now choose in the first panel the first line again (all album artists) and you get the list you are after.

now this seems a long way, but could also give you some interesting new insight in who did what with whome.

its just an idea and more or less how i do this.

 
gab
edit: thought i should add some screenshot how i use it. i have in the panes both values artiesten (album artists) and all musicians double. this can be handy when you want to see some cooperations etc.
http://pix01.com/Pm@n8FK

[vagskal]

Thanks gappie! That looks like a useful workaround. How did you accomplish the > things with Artist, Composer and Musician in the All Musicians panes?

Do you know if pane tagging is possible in fields created with the ListCombine() function (provided that the delimiter is ?

[gappie]

Thanks gappie! That looks like a useful workaround. How did you accomplish the > things with Artist, Composer and Musician in the All Musicians panes?

i use a calculated field, i was just fooling around with it for a view in Theater View, so the outcome is a bit different then in the screenshot

Code: [Select]

ListCombine(replace([artiesten],;,\Album Artist;)\Artist,ListCombine(replace([artist],;,\Artist;)\Artist,
ListCombine(Replace([keywords],\,\Musician\),if(isempty([composers]),,if(isequal([composers],\,8),replace([composers],\,\Composer\),replace([composers],;,\Composer;)\Composer)))))
&datatype=[list]in essence it combines composers and keywords etc. but i put where they come from after, or in between the 'nested keywords'.
so i have for instance Trevor Dunn\Bass;Marc Ribot\Guitars;Kenny Wollesen\Vibes;John Zorn\Alto Saxophone...etc in the keywords, the expression ads a \musician\ on the place of the \.

Do you know if pane tagging is possible in fields created with the ListCombine() function (provided that the delimiter is ?

as far as i know, you cant, its only in some very basic calculated fields that tagging works. in this case it would also not be logical. say you have a field combining composers and keywords, and you would try to tag something there. where should it go?

 
gab

edit: hope it is easier to read now

[vagskal]

i use a calculated field, i was just fooling around with it for a view in Theater View, so the outcome is a bit different then in the screenshot

Code: [Select]

ListCombine(replace([artiesten],;,\Album Artist;)\Artist,ListCombine(replace([artist],;,\Artist;)\Artist,
ListCombine(Replace([keywords],\,\Musician\),if(isempty([composers]),,if(isequal([composers],\,8),replace([composers],\,\Composer\),replace([composers],;,\Composer;)\Composer)))))
&datatype=[list]in essence it combines composers and keywords etc. but i put where they come from after, or in between the 'nested keywords'.
so i have for instance Trevor Dunn\Bass;Marc Ribot\Guitars;Kenny Wollesen\Vibes;John Zorn\Alto Saxophone...etc in the keywords, the expression ads a \musician\ on the place of the \.

But how do you get a tree inside the pane? Or will a \ in a list item automatically make whatever comes after the \ a sub menu item (so you now have a sub menu Musican and sub sub menus Bass, Guitars etc?  I have never seen that before although I switched on the allow  tree selection and support tree browsing options. (Sorry if this is a very basic question, but I do not think I have seen anything about this in the wiki or otherwise.)

as far as i know, you cant, its only in some very basic calculated fields that tagging works. in this case it would also not be logical. say you have a field combining composers and keywords, and you would try to tag something there. where should it go?

OK, I see.

[gappie]

But how do you get a tree inside the pane? Or will a \ in a list item automatically make whatever comes after the \ a sub menu item (so you now have a sub menu Musican and sub sub menus Bass, Guitars etc?  I have never seen that before although I switched on the allow  tree selection and support tree browsing options. (Sorry if this is a very basic question, but I do not think I have seen anything about this in the wiki or otherwise.)

its called nested list fields, or something like that. you dont have to set anything in the options. you can use it in several ways. guess the most commen could be in places: germany\berlin\brandenburger tor
or people: family\granddad
etc
it works only with list fields

 
gab

[vagskal]

This is a great feature! Thanks! I am learning much. Apart from the Artist and Composer sub menus I went straight ahead with I made a year menu with sub menus for VA albums, compilations and "regular" albums so I immediately can see only the "real" albums released a particular year. And I will make the same sub menus for album artists and add sub menus for EPs, singles and live albums... Who knows where this will end. I only wish that the great features of MC were better documented with more examples like the one you gave me. I also did not know that it was possible to just add plain text in a ListCombine() function and get that appended at the end of a list type field you are combining. Maybe it is because I do not do photos, only music with MC.

The helpful answers/hints from you all make me forget the disappointing fact that there seems to be no way other than a rather awkward workaround (for which I am grateful) to achieve what I was initially after, but encourage me to dare to ask another completely off topic (well I started the topic, didn't I) question: Is there a way to drag and drop a .jpg file onto a music file and have it saved in the music file and how is that done? I have tried but not succeeded. I have a rather large VA type "album" with various singles from artists who I do not want to clutter my list of album artists and I would like to use the link feature in MC to search the Internet for appropriate cover art for each single and just drop the cover art on the track(s) to have it saved to the file(s). I know I can save the .jpg file on my hard disc and then search for it and add it as cover art to the music file and that I can copy the .jpg file and then use the right click menu to paste it as cover art for the music file (I already have generic cover art saved to the files in that "album" so this means I have to manually delete the generic cover art to have only one cover art for the music file; or is there a hidden way to not add but replace the cover art for a file using the copy and paste function?). 

[rick.ca]

...is there a hidden way to not add but replace the cover art for a file using the copy and paste function?

Yes. Copy the source (image or URL) to the clipboard, then right-click on the track and select Cover art - Paste from clipboard. You'll probably want to use a split view—as illustrated in the attached screen shot. I won't promise to finish gathering covers for my entire Rolling Stone 500 album, but the process is reasonably efficient.

[MusicHawk]

...replace the cover art for a file using the copy and paste function

But... while it's possible to embed an image in a music file (most formats, anyway), if you are storing cover art images externally, remember that MC will use the pasted image to create an actual image file, and give it a file name per the built-in expression that uses Album Artist ('auto' version apparently, though I don't use that field intentionally) and Album to name the new image file. This means that MC will create a new file that overwrites an existing image file of the same name.

ALSO... the new image will show up in any other tracks that were (or in the future are) assigned an image based on the same Album Artist and Album, because they all get the same automatic image file name. This can be a trap in a multi-artist album.

The workaround for this is either to create your own image file with a unique name, OR to trick MC into giving it a unique name. I temporarily modify the Album field (add a letter, such as putting the track number at the end of the album name), then paste in the image, so MC names it per this unique Album name, not the real Album name. Then I restore the field to the original Album name. MC never changes an existing image file's name even if the data it was based on gets changed), so unless I later again update the image of this track, this works reliably.

[Alex B]

Is there a way to drag and drop a .jpg file onto a music file and have it saved in the music file and how is that done?

A way to do that is to open Action Window > Tag and click the small image placeholder frame on top left. It will open a bigger image display that can be used as a drop area. Select the audio file (or files) in MC and simply drag the image file from Windows Explorer and drop it into the Image window. Assuming the "Also store image in file's tag" setting is disabled in "Options > File Location > Cover Art" MC will then only create a direct link to the dropped image file without creating a renamed copy of it. If the "Also store image in file's tag" setting is ticked the image will be embedded. (Embedding works with the internally supported audio formats. It is no possible with externally decoded formats.)

This will work also when the default cover art naming schemes are unsuitable (like in MusicHawk's situation).

[vagskal]

Thanks for the replies! I knew it must be a way to drag and drop but I could not figure out where to make the drop.

The methods suggested by Alex and Rick will not replace the cover art in the file but rather add a second image to the file (or is there some modifier key I can press when dropping?). I want just one image per file. I guess I could first remove the generic cover art I have saved to the files. Is there a way to sort/group files by cover art so I can easily find which files still have the generic image? In list view there is an option to sort by image, but it does nothing as far as I can see (at least it does not group files with the same image together).

[vagskal]

I have made several nested list fields according to what gappie taught me. In one pane there are about 3,300 items and when I try to jump by typing in that pane MC gets totally unresponsive and I have to force MC to quit. I tried jump by typing with a subset of about 100 items and then the jump took "only" 10 to 15 seconds. I also discovered that if the string I am typing exists in the sub menus the jump goes to the first sub menu. I guess this extensive sub menu searching can cause performance issues. Is there a way to disable the search in sub menus when jumping by typing so that the jump goes only to a top level item? Is what I am experiencing a known issue?

My PC is fairly powerful and gets this overall benchmark value: JRMark (version 15.0.73): 2139

[Alex B]

The methods suggested by Alex and Rick will not replace the cover art in the file but rather add a second image to the file (or is there some modifier key I can press when dropping?). I want just one image per file. I guess I could first remove the generic cover art I have saved to the files.

When you have the "Also store image in file's tag" setting enabled MC is supposed to replace the existing embedded image. Do you mean that you can see both images in some external application? If yes, perhaps the old image is not stored in a supported way or format. What is the audio format? What is the image format? How did you embed the old image?

Is there a way to sort/group files by cover art so I can easily find which files still have the generic image? In list view there is an option to sort by image, but it does nothing as far as I can see (at least it does not group files with the same image together).

If you have grouping enabled the files are sorted only inside each group. You can disable grouping or create a separate ungrouped view if you want to sort all included files. Regarding sorting by the image, you cannot sort the thumbnail images, but you can add the "Image File" column to a list view and sort by it. However, when the images are embedded they all will have the same value (Inside File) and sorting does not do anything. It works as expected when the Image File column shows the filenames of the linked images.

[vagskal]

Thanks for the reply!

When you hsve the "Also store image in file's tag" setting enabled MC is supposed the replace the existing embedded image. Do you mean that you can see both images in some external application? If yes, perhaps the old image is not stored in a supported way or format. What is the audio file format? What is the image file format? How did you embed the old image?

The music files I tried with are mp3 with ID3v2.3 tags. They had each one jpg file embedded with MP3Tag and I used MP3Tag to see that each file had two images (the original and the one I dropped in MC) embedded after I had dropped a jpg file on them in MC. After the drop the image in the window you directed me to changed to the dropped image. But if I switched to a file with another image and then switched back, the original image was shown in that window and as the small thumbnail in the file list. Below are the tags from one file after the drop:

MPEG-1 Layer 3
190 Kbit VBR
44.1 Khz Joint stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: No
Protected by CRC: No
Encoder: LAME
Gapless: Yes (576 start, 2016 end)

ID3v1 Tag: none

ID3v2.3 Tag: (69632 bytes)
  TALB (Album): Straight Ahead
  TPE1 (Artist): Abbey Lincoln
  TPE2 (Album Artist): Abbey Lincoln
  COMM (Comment): Sörens eMusic
  TCOM (Composer): E. Baker; Abbey Lincoln; Mal Waldron
  TCON (Genre): Vocal
  TLEN: 323336
  TPUB (Publisher): Candid
  TIT2 (Name): Straight Ahead
  TRCK (Track #): 1
  TYER (Year): 1961
  TXXX (Album Artist): Abbey Lincoln
  TXXX (Album rating): 5
  TXXX (Mood): Intense; Fiery; Complex; Freewheeling; Passionate; Bittersweet; Autumnal; Elegant; Soothing
  TXXX (MusicMagic Data): <too large to display>
  TXXX (MusicMagic Fingerp..): <too large to display>
  TXXX (replaygain_album_g..): -0.73 dB
  TXXX (replaygain_album_p..): 0.951542
  TXXX (replaygain_track_g..): +2.01 dB
  TXXX (replaygain_track_p..): 0.460050
  TXXX (Review): <too large to display>
  TXXX (Style): Vocal Jazz; Post-Bop
  TXXX (Theme): Sunday Afternoon; Feeling Blue; Late Night; Relaxation
  TXXX (Tool Name): Media Center
  TXXX (Tool Version): 15.0.73
  APIC (MP3T1732716757) (Cover): <too large to display>
  APIC (Picture) (Cover): <too large to display>

The APIC (MP3T1732716757) (Cover): tag was there before and the other APIC tag is new. The original image for that particular file was probably embedded with MP3Tag some time ago (or the embedding might have been done by eMusic). When MP3Tag nowadays embeds cover art the file gets a APIC (Image File) (Cover): tag. I also tried with files that had that tag (APIC (Image File) (Cover): ) originally and the result was the same, another APIC (Picture) (Cover): added and two embedded images shown in MP3Tag.

If you have grouping enabled the files are sorted only inside each group. You can disable grouping or create a separate ungrouped view if you want to sort all included files. Regarding sorting by the image you cannot sort the thumbnail images, but you can add the "Image File" column to a list view and sort by it. However, when the images are embedded they all will have the same value (Inside File) and sorting does not do anything. It works as expected when the Image File column shows the filenames of the linked images.

OK I guess I will have to sort the generic images out manually then.

[Alex B]

I did some experimenting with MP3tag and MC. I can reproduce this "double image" phenomenon. Probably it has something to do with the header info in the APIC tag.

A bit surprisingly, when I saved an image twice with MC the excess image was erased from the file tag.

[rick.ca]

I also tried with files that had that tag (APIC (Image File) (Cover): ) originally and the result was the same, another APIC (Picture) (Cover): added and two embedded images shown in MP3Tag.

This is strange. What happens if you remove all embedded images, add one using MC, then try replacing that with another? From Alex's observation, I suppose it would then work fine.

In any case, why not just start by removing the "generic" covers from all the files in an album? If MC won't do this (because there is some issue with the form of the image tag), MP3Tag surely will.

[vagskal]

If a file has only one image embedded with MP3Tag, then MC cannot remove it. If I drop another image on that file in MC, I can then use MC to delete both images. After that it works as expected (drag and drop replaces any existing image). This is in line with Alex B's observation. Once MC has embedded an image in a file MC can handle the old embedded image.

@Rick: Yes, MP3Tag can certainly remove all embedded images and I will do as you suggest.

I will report this obvious bug in the latest build thread.

Thanks for all your help.