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Yes, In a heart beat

Probably

Not sure, maybe

No thanks

Don't watch Blu-ray, Don't care

[Strale]

Yes, bravo! ''He who dares wins'', I couldn't remember exactly and it starts to tick me off so I just wanted to visit youtube for help

[wo0zy]

Yes, bravo! ''He who dares wins'', I couldn't remember exactly and it starts to tick me off so I just wanted to visit youtube for help

In the UK the "Dave" channel makes sure you NEVER forget

Tv repeats is another good reason for supporting as many disc playback options as possible

Wo0zy

[rick.ca]

That's "He who dares wins".

I think it's pretty clear that both of the two basic choices being discussed here are "daring" in their own way. In particular, the one I advocate entails no additional revenue and the need to change the minds of those who believe that nothing less than full Blu-ray support will do. All this bit of wisdom suggests is the importance of making a decision and then acting on it.

...DRM should not be encouraged and protected bluray support would be doing just that.

I hadn't thought of it in exactly those terms, but this is a very good point. Maybe I'm paranoid, but nothing I've heard suggests this club is worthy of our trust. Does membership tie JRiver's hands in any way that some of us may object to—like prohibiting any form of support for the handling of "unauthorized" BD rips?

[SamuriHL]

I hadn't thought of it in exactly those terms, but this is a very good point. Maybe I'm paranoid, but nothing I've heard suggests this club is worthy of our trust. Does membership tie JRiver's hands in any way that some of us may object to—like prohibiting any form of support for the handling of "unauthorized" BD rips?

Yes.  Being a licensed Blu-ray player means a *LOT* of draconian things. I can't believe the audiophile crowd would even suggest integrated, native BD playback for that simple reason.  Let's take a look at some of the things a licensed player is forced to do:

-First and foremost, it needs to support AACS decryption in a way that prevents the player key from being lifted from memory.  That means debuggers need to be trapped, memory needs to be wiped clean, and all kind of other nasty nonsense that could, and probably would, introduce instability in MC15.
-Next up you have BD+.  This is another whole new ballgame and requires a BD+ machine implementation that is also secure from hacking.  And as new titles make use of more and more BD+ functions (there are a lot), the player will most likely have to be tweaked to handle it.  And since ArcSoft didn't even seem to get a heads up with the new Avatar BD+ protection was released, I suspect JRiver would also be forced to play catch up when the BD+ protection is changed.  Playing catch up is never a good place to be in when you're a developer and customers are clamoring for a fix for their new Blu-ray.
-For you audiophiles in the house, we have bitstreaming and non-downsampled decoded LPCM.  This is a really fun topic.  For bitstreaming, a Protected Audio Path is required.  JRiver would in fact be required to implement each and every vendor's interpretation of PAP.  What I mean is, nVidia does PAP one way, ATI does it another way, Realtek does it another way, ASUS Xonar does it yet another way.  You will be writing code to support each and every new card that comes out in order to support PAP for bitstreaming.  That also applies to non-downsampled LPCM for those that couldn't care less about bitstreaming.  No PAP....no non-downsampling.  There is a strange use case exemption that seems to be out there, but, that use case isn't fully understood yet so discussion it here is premature at best.
-For videophiles, HDCP is also required to be supported by the player.  IOW, more DRM code that doesn't achieve anything for the end user but a headache that the developers will have to focus on.

Why do I bring all this up?  All of that coding equals an ENORMOUS amount of time and effort.  That's time and effort that will NOT be spent improving other areas of MC15.  We need to remember that developer resources for a company the size of JRiver are not infinite.  If they're working on DRM requirements to not get their AACS LA provided license revoked, they're not working on other areas of the code.  If they were to hire developers specifically for the purpose of doing all the DRM coding, the cost would have to go up because they still need to cover the AACS LA license fee, PLUS pay the developers working on the code. And let's not even get into the exponential cost of testing.  The in house hardware requirements alone aren't cheap as you need to test on a wide variety of hardware to make sure the DRM plays nice.  I'm not pointing all this out to be negative.  I'm pointing it out to clearly define the reality behind such an endeavor.  It's not cheap from a labor or monetary standpoint.  And other areas of the code would likely suffer as a result.  Just look at PowerDVD for a prime example of that.  I just want everyone to have a clear picture of what would be needed to provide licensed, official BD support.  BTW, did I mention the work necessary to create the video and audio codecs?  Those aren't provided.  As an AACS LA licensee, you get the spec.  You're on your own as to how to implement it.  That's 3 video codecs (already handled so no problem there) and 3 audio codecs.  DTS-HD MA being the most obvious one that would need to be written from scratch.  I think TrueHD could be handled by what's already out there depending on how the license is written.  Otherwise they may be forced to write their own codec for it.  Awesome....

[wo0zy]

Don't think you could make it any clearer Samuri.

3rd party player support/ integration is the way to go plus improvements to the video library system. I'd suggest speaking to Brian over at My Movies and maybe looking at his API for that instead of just (partially) reading the mymovies.xml.

How far either of these things go depends on whether j river is looking for mass market (maybe OEM) adoption or whether it plans to stay firmly routed in the enthusiast market.

Wo0zy

[SamuriHL]

It's unfortunate that they make it so difficult.  This is the reason that we had so many DVD player software packages but only 3 commercial Blu-ray software packages out now.  Jumping into it, IMO, would mean concentrating on nothing but Blu-ray playback for quite a while.  It's not a quick endeavor to undertake.  I'm really not trying to discourage anyone.  That's not my goal.  I just want to make sure everyone knows what a HUGE development task it is.  That's why I recommend letting the "other guys" take care of all the legwork around BD playback and simply try to seamlessly integrate their 10' UI plugins with MC15.  It'd be a way that lets MC15 manage the library (ISO's, MKV's, whatever) and still have seamless playback without tying up the developers for months to work on nothing but satisfying arbitrary, and changing, AACS LA requirements.  I haven't even mentioned Cinavia detection, but, according to the new license it seems to be mandatory for all new players, as well.  The ridiculous requirements of the AACS LA go on and on.  And they can change at any point.  In order to keep your license, you must comply.  That's why PowerDVD lost functionality.  I can't believe the JRiver developers would really want to jump through those hoops unless Blu-ray support would be a *HUGE* draw and a significant portion of the customers would be willing to pay for it.  Otherwise the pure economics don't really make sense.  Again, it's up to them to decide what feature set to add, but, I want them to do so with full knowledge of what they're getting into. 

[fitbrit]

Just an FYI, MKV does chapter support just fine now with the latest Haali.  Menus are still not supported, however, and that's a very big ball of yarn to untangle.  Most BD menus are done in BD-J, so, it's not a simple thing of "ripping the menu" and "adding it to an MKV".  At the present time of this writing, you won't find any open source, non-commercial player that supports BD menus.  Yes, I know that support is being worked on by at least 2 groups.  However, it's going to be a long, involved process. 

Chapters are also supported with the latest MPC Matroska splitter.

[jmone]

Welcome by the way wo0zy, liked your work over at AVS especially trying to get those G33's working at 24hz (now well in the past thank heavens)!
======================

Anyway - at the risk of being repetitive, I see there are 4 Options for JR to look at (I added a 4th), and in the order of preference (mine):
 voted Yes (not surprise) but of all the options I'd suggest in order of doability:
1) Use a Plug-in from TMT or PDVD etc:  It already works with MS MC so it should be relativity quick, easy, and as a plug in only those that would use it would pay
2) Blu-ray "lite": Code MC to support the recognition of Bly-ray discs, and the parsing of the Playlist File on them for correct playback of the M2TS content using direct show filters.  Middle ground, should not be toooo hard to do (other are doing it now).  This would only work for Non-protected Discs (eg users would need a AnyDVD HD type product).  You would not have any menus etc but it would play the default main movie.  Also no available filter for DTS-HD is limiting with this solution.  This will still be a pain for all but an enthusiast to setup.
3) Dev a Full Blown Blu-ray SW Player:  Don't......$ $ $ $ and restrictions on JR - $20K is just not going to get you there.
4) Do nothing and wait:  The approach to date & I'm unsure if it has hurt or hindered MC.  We do have psuedo 3rd party integration but it is not very good - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55171.0


Thanks
Nathan

[SamuriHL]

Chapters are also supported with the latest MPC Matroska splitter.

Good to know.  Thanks!

[rick.ca]

I'm convinced. I change my vote to an unqualified NO! And YES to whatever alternatives are necessary to ensure I'm never affected by this evil Blu-ray nonsense. I would go as far a branding this alternative capability as "Anti-Blu-ray" support. I'd be willing to pay more for that.

[SamuriHL]

I'm convinced. I change my vote to an unqualified NO! And YES to whatever alternatives are necessary to ensure I'm never affected by this evil Blu-ray nonsense. I would go as far a branding this alternative capability as "Anti-Blu-ray" support. I'd be willing to pay more for that.

You and me both.  It's why I'm waiting for SlyPlayer still.  And yes, before anyone asks, it IS still being actively worked on.  The fact that it's taken SlySoft this long to make a player like that should tell you just how difficult this process is.  Even with access to all the specs, it's not a walk in the park.

[JustinChase]

...with full knowledge of what they're getting into. 

WOW!!!

sounds like a pass to me

Chapters are also supported with the latest MPC Matroska splitter.

that is good news, I guess I'll be doing some searching and updating and tweaking in the next few days.

I wonder if there is any possibility that Matt and the boys can consider/implement my idea of putting together the "best" working codec package (minimum required - to keep it simple) , adjusted/tweaked for use inside MC (no current concern with compatibility outside of MC) that gets most files playing back at their highest potential (lossless if possible, scaling down as necessary) that average Joe can just remove all other codecs, install this, and MC just makes it all work?

It seems like everyone has to find all the parts on their own, use trial and error, and eventually settle for whatever they consider good enough for them.  There doesn't seem to be any concrete path, but lots of ways that mostly work for everyone.  Even when someone finds out a solution, everyone would have to notice it happening, or find it in a search, and most users likely don't spend much time here, so would not know.

It sure would be nice if J River could find a solid solution, package it up, keep it current and recommend it as a known working solution for providing the best high quality processing and playback of most media

If when there is an improved method to MKV chapters, or menu's or "better" playback codec or whatever, update the package and everyone gets the improvement; simple

[SamuriHL]

Right.  That's what I was saying in the bitstreaming thread about making it more user friendly to configure the different pieces needed for whatever functionality.  For example, to get bitstreaming/dxva/subtitles to work for MKV playback, suggest to the user that they install ffdshow (give them a link to where they can get it from right in the UI) and then when it's detected, offer to configure it for them. (Hey, I've found ffdshow, would you like to use this for xyz?)  And the same with splitters and any other requirements for functionality.  Making it easier for users to configure these things right in MC15's configuration page would make it more likely that people will use it, and allow for greater flexibility in the MC15 world.  I think this would go a long way towards making some users very happy.  Myself included.  LOL! 

[rick.ca]

I wonder if there is any possibility that Matt and the boys can consider/implement my idea of putting together the "best" working codec package (minimum required - to keep it simple) , adjusted/tweaked for use inside MC (no current concern with compatibility outside of MC) that gets most files playing back at their highest potential (lossless if possible, scaling down as necessary) that average Joe can just remove all other codecs, install this, and MC just makes it all work?

I think this is off-topic, but since you keep bringing it up...

I'm not sure if you're thinking of BD ripped to MKV and limited variations of what may be found in the resulting files, but most of us expect our media player to be able to play any video file (within reason). That's why CCCP or some reputable codec pack is recommended. It seems those who compile these things put a lot of effort into finding a combinations of codecs that will work together properly in most circumstances. The result has to not just handle various content, but do so with the resources available. What you need to play a particular file may be different from what I need. So I'm not sure how using MC changes this in any way that isn't already taken care of by the MC configuration (e.g., it can handle audio in a different and better way—and it will do so if asked). So I don't see what it is that MC might do in this area—other than try to make the program easier to use and provide support in what is necessarily a complicated matter.

...so—to stay on topic—I'll conclude by saying adding Blu-ray support is almost as bad an idea as compiling a JRiver codec pack.

[fitbrit]

Welcome by the way wo0zy, liked your work over at AVS especially trying to get those G33's working at 24hz (now well in the past thank heavens)!
======================

Yes, let me echo this! I was so used to seeing your name in AVS, that it took me a while to figure that you're new... here.

Joe

[JustinChase]

I think this is off-topic, but since you keep bringing it up...
...so—to stay on topic—I'll conclude by saying adding Blu-ray support is almost as bad an idea as compiling a JRiver codec pack.

agreed, sorry.  I created a new thread to discuss this here...

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59100.0

[dallasjustice]

I voted yes.  But unless JRiver can compete with Windows Media Center which can utilize blu-ray plugins like Cyberlink or TMT3 and can handle OCUR TV, you will be disadvantaged.  Without these options to offer customers, you will have to rely mostly on current JRiver customers to upgrade, which is not going to be very profitable. 

The reason why I would upgrade for $50 in a heartbeat, is that I would use 5.1 room correction with Audiolense plugin, or the like, for HT which isn't happening so much in Windows Media Center. 

[MikeAus]

I voted yes.  But unless JRiver can compete with Windows Media Center which can utilize blu-ray plugins like Cyberlink or TMT3 and can handle OCUR TV, you will be disadvantaged.  Without these options to offer customers, you will have to rely mostly on current JRiver customers to upgrade, which is not going to be very profitable. 

I looked at Windows Media Center. It's rubbish , so I recently purchased JRiver. That makes me a new customer. So I don't see Blu-ray a s the definitive offering for JRiver to compete. I don't use Blu-ray at all - so have no need for it. If I did I would probably just rip to mkv or use a dedicated player for the purpose - like I do now on the rare ocassion I watch an actual physical DVD.
I definently don't want to have to pay extra for a feature I will rarely use.

[wo0zy]

Yes, let me echo this! I was so used to seeing your name in AVS, that it took me a while to figure that you're new... here.

Joe

Thanks for the welcome guys. It's appreciated.

I'm on holiday this week but hope to be more active here when I get back.

I'm new to the product as well as the forum but from what I've seen so far this is currently one of the most exciting products in the HTPC arena!

Speak soon.

Wo0zy

[MrHaugen]

Also take into consideration that this forum is mostly visited by the more technical users, and the poll result would probably be worst in the BluRay fan department, if every user would vote.

[swinster]

Also take into consideration that this forum is mostly visited by the more technical users, and the poll result would probably be worst in the BluRay fan department, if every user would vote.

Worse in what way - there would be more people voting for BluRay support??

[zuiko]

I said No because I don't see any advantage of playing BRDs off media center as opposed to a dedicated BRD player. I don't play any physical media from MC. Anything I use MC for has already been ripped.

I also see BRD as transitional as streaming takes off. The instant playback from a massive library on demand is a pretty compelling feature you don't get with BRD.

[MrHaugen]

Worse in what way - there would be more people voting for BluRay support??

No. The other way around. Because this forums is filled with people that embrace this and other applications possibilities, hardware and other technical stuff. In my opinion we're much more likely to be using BluRay than the average user that uses MC for Music or DivX only. I think that most users that do look at BluRay, already got a PS3.

[glynor]

I don't know... I think the "geek audience" is actually quite split on "next gen" optical formats.  Some of us appreciate the higher bitrate and extra features of BluRay, whereas others (like me) have basically abandoned the entire idea of spinning plastic discs and have moved to a fully, or near-fully, file-based and downloadable content usage system.

Take me, for example:  In a perfect world, I'd absolutely prefer the higher bitrate of BluRay content when watching a movie or something on my system.  However, I do NOT appreciate that higher bitrate enough to counteract all of the negatives of BluRay.  The biggest of these is frankly the removable nature of the discs.  I mean, seriously... In 2010 you expect me to have a wall of discs in my living room where I need to stand up and walk over to the machine?  Isn't that why we have 2TB hard drives for sale on Newegg for $100?  But beyond that, there is also the inconsistent UI, obnoxious DRM, and the dearth of available software players.  Also, to obtain a BluRay disc I need to get in my car and drive somewhere, or order online it and wait a week for it to arrive (plus to use Netflix I need to have a monthly subscription).  To me, the other features of BluRay are completely irrelevant.  I've almost never watched any of the "additional content" on a DVD.  To me, all of that stuff is just as irrelevant as the importance of having the physical CD booklet for a music purchase or the "feel" of a hardcover book in my hand.  Nice in abstract, but doesn't even come close to outweighing the convenience, consistency, and immediacy of electronic downloadable purchases.

If I could buy movies online and download them in 1080p AVC at high bitrates wrapped in a MP4 or MKV container, I'd be all over it.  But, forced to choose, I'll take a 720p MP4 at watchable bitrates over better quality with all those negatives.  But not everyone in the "geek community" agrees.  There are certainly lots of people who feel that the quality and features of the BluRay discs trumps the convenience and consistency negatives.  I can appreciate those arguments as well, I just don't usually agree (with a few exceptions, there are times when I'd prefer the higher quality with a particularly extraordinary film that I might want to watch and re-watch and keep for posterity, but these are very few and far between).

I feel like the non-geek public, if you limit your survey to people who are interested in getting HD content at all (which is the target market, obviously), is much more likely to support and use BluRay than the geek community on average.  The iTunes store has some HD content, and so does Amazon, but for everyday consumption, these services certainly have a much lower mindshare than Netflix and BestBuy for the "average Joe".  However, this audience would absolutely require a built-in "just pay the $50 and have It Just Work" system in a software player, not a hodgepodge of external players and plugins and:

It seems like everyone has to find all the parts on their own, use trial and error, and eventually settle for whatever they consider good enough for them.  There doesn't seem to be any concrete path, but lots of ways that mostly work for everyone.

That would clearly be unacceptable for the "average user".

[swinster]

I do like glynor's comments, especially given that I agree with his points, but from the opposing perspective. I like physical media and have done since starting to collect vinyl, which I continue to do so and, for what its worth, is making huge inroads back in to the audiophile arena - but one area where even MC couldn't be used. In fact, I probably enjoy listening to vinyal more that digital music, but I do listen to MORE digital music.

With my digital media I still like collecting the physical product. There's something about the opening of a box and putting a disc into a machine, reading the paraphernalia that comes with well packaged products, and viewing some alternative materiel - granted most is ****, but some material is the best viewing I have ever seen. Yet, my CD collection now remains untouched, ripped and stored in high bitrate formats (which don't take up that much room given today TB RAID arrays), with my music library being expanded upon from various 'other' sources.

However, on the video front, I seemed to have skipped the DVD world completely, but I have fully embraced BluRay. Whilst I will watch I good quality MKV or even AVI rip, they simply do not even come close to the physical BluRay disk, and given the choice of what to watch if I have both options available to me, I would resort to the actual disc every time. Its a shame I can't rip the entire disc as I would do with a DVD, but even if I could at 25-50GB a time, even my relatively large array will soon be filled.

Yet any digital source I have, I would like to be able to access using a consistent interface across multiple devices, in multiple rooms. This means looking to HTPC systems all running MC hooked up to a back end server. I would like to be able to play "All Media in One Interface" (as ripped from the JRiver Home page), which would not only include digital files, but also multiple TV streams (still away off for MC) and physical digital media, such as CD, DVD and the dreaded BluRay.

As a more techy user, I wouldn't mind cobbling bits of software together to get this working, but I too think that this would be unacceptable for the average user.

Certainly, if such an area as BluRay playback is decided to be overlooked by JRiver, then they might want to think about re-marketing (although on another note, this might be worth while doing in any case as the website is a little tired at best, and completely out of date by 5 years or so (maybe even longer) at worst- just another one of those"to-do" to add to the list).

But essentially, it boils down to choice - choice for JRiver which direction they want to go, and potentially a choice for us if we want to adopt a particular feature. Each to their own, but I believe choice is a good thing.

[jmone]

I think the Glynor and Sinster posts are interesting and to me it shows, that like all features in MC, some will use it...and some will not.  The reasons behind why you would or would not use a feature is an individial choice.  Look at all the audiophile stuff Matt has been working, while I'd never have voted for this "stuff" I know others are very keen and even though such development costs time/money and takes these resorces away from projects I'd prefer, I'm glad MC rounds these features out.  I'd just like MC to give us a Blu-choice.

[fitbrit]

I think the Glynor and Sinster posts are interesting and to me it shows, that like all features in MC, some will use it...and some will not.  The reasons behind why you would or would not use a feature is an individial choice.  Look at all the audiophile stuff Matt has been working, while I'd never have voted for this "stuff" I know others are very keen and even though such development costs time/money and takes these resorces away from projects I'd prefer, I'm glad MC rounds these features out.  I'd just like MC to give us a Blu-choice.

I agree 100%; the lesson is clearly that there's probably a full spectrum of preferences among power/geek users. Personally, I don't care about owning the optical media any more. I do care about playing the files at the best possible quality (within reason when it comes to file size). I'm more interested in being able to play back from ISO, folders or simple m2ts files than the optical medium itself. Most likely I'll rip to mkv and be done with it. I did like to have the disc boxes on display, but after about 300 of them it took up more space than it was worth. Now I'm happy to let the 23 TB unRaid server take care of storage, while the disc cases are hidden form sight.

[glynor]

I think the Glynor and Sinster posts are interesting and to me it shows, that like all features in MC, some will use it...and some will not.  The reasons behind why you would or would not use a feature is an individial choice.  Look at all the audiophile stuff Matt has been working, while I'd never have voted for this "stuff" I know others are very keen and even though such development costs time/money and takes these resorces away from projects I'd prefer, I'm glad MC rounds these features out.  I'd just like MC to give us a Blu-choice.

Exactly.  And to be clear... I would pay the $50.

I won't use BluRay very often (because of the reasons explained above).  For those occasional "spectacular" movies where I really want to own it in the best possible quality, and I splurge and buy the disc on Amazon?  I'd just rip it to MKV and throw it on my RAID and import it into MC normally.  So why would I want the $50 plugin for MC?

Exactly because I am the person who won't use BluRay very often.  If you are a BluRay aficionado, then the work required to set up the hodgepodge approach of external players and filters and learn how to use this from within MC (or separately) is relatively minor compared to the amount of use that you will get out of it over the lifetime of the product.  However, for me, the return on the investment of my time wouldn't even approach the "cost" (in time and effort to get it working properly).  That's why I've had my BluRay drive in the HTPC for almost a year and have never even bothered to set up any software that can use it (other than for ripping and DVD playback)!

If I could pay $50 and have it guaranteed to "Just Work" with MC (which I use for basically everything else anyway), and just have it built in, then it would be worth the small price easily.  That way, should a friend or relative ever show up with a disc they want to play, or should we ever want to watch a particular movie on a rainy and unplanned Sunday afternoon (and not mind running out to the local rental place), I can rest easy that it will work with minimal fuss.  If JRiver can build a profitable business selling the BluRay add-on for $50, then it would not negatively impact the development of MC, it would only provide an additional revenue stream.  Even if they "break even" (including the cost of the licensing and the development time required), it could add additional customers and drive more revenue over time, which only gives Jim more to invest in the development of the overall product.

[rick.ca]

Exactly because I am the person who won't use BluRay very often...

I agree with this line of thinking completely. And things "just working" is a very important part of the "any media, any where, any time" promise. But joining the Blu-ray club doesn't seem to be a rational investment (in money or development time) for JRiver. I'd rather see the investment go into the alternatives. So playing a BD just works because one or more third party players are seamlessly integrated with the program. So playing a BD rip just works because the program ensures the necessary codecs are installed and used properly. So maintaining meta data for Blu-ray media (disc or rip) just works because the program will do so for any kind of media. I'm happy to pay more, but I expect it to be invested where it gives me the most value.

[JimH]

I split some discussion here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59254.0

[jmone]

Looks like the thread as run its course....

So JimH, what the decision?

[rick.ca]

So JimH, what the decision?

"Never make decisions based on polls."

[jmone]

I'm not after a poll based decision!  I'm interested in the position of JR.  Jim started the thread and now its time.....

[rick.ca]

I was kidding! Although I don't recall him saying anything about making a decision...

[jmone]

Nor do I ... but it wold be nice to know what direction JR was leaning towards!

[fitbrit]

Nor do I ... but it wold be nice to know what direction JR was leaning towards!

Before or after he was shot? Oh boy, I'm sooo old!

[rick.ca]

You sure are! But good point—we'll probably have to wait until next season to find out.

[fitbrit]

I personally think a HUGE leap forward for the video playback experience would be for JRiver to be able to use the EVR Custom Presenter Renderer, which will allow subtitles with DXVA. Either that, or to develop a internal subtitle renderer like MPC-HC has. Right now, the ONLY way to get accelerated h264 decoding, subtitles and bitstreaming of HD audio would be to use CoreAVC with CUDA for video, ffdshow for audio and an nVidia GTX460 video card. nVidia is soon releasing lower-power, non-gaming cards that can do the same, but if we got the EVR-CP, ATi cards, and integrated i3/i5 with h55/h57 combo solutions would work with MC too.