Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[nwboater]

We now have our 5.1 system running with our new Essence ST Soundcard straight to multiple power amps (no receiver) .  I want to eliminate the Behringer DCX2496 that we had been using for sub crossover and equalization. Our sub is the huge Danley DTS-10 tapped horn which has very strong solid output down to 11 Hz. It's only problem is that it's frequency response has many peaks and valleys. With the Behringer we were able to tame all of that and get a fairly flat response. It took multiple parametric equalizers to do it.

So I'm looking for a way to do that from within MC, I guess using some kind of VST plugins. I need this equalization to be done on only the LFE output channel. I don't want to do anything that would affect the outputs to our Klipschorn mains. Any suggestions would sure be appreciated.

Thanks very much.

Rod

[mojave]

I use Voxengo's GlissEQ and took my DCX2496 out of the system. It isn't free, but is cheaper than a DCX2496. GlissEQ does have a full featured demo available. It is one of the only multi-channel EQ's that I could find. Most others are just two channel. You need a multi-channel EQ to pass the other channels through even if you are only applying EQ to the LFE channel. GlissEQ offers greater precision and more filters than the DCX2496.

While GlissEQ calls itself a "dynamic EQ," the Plain Peaking (parametric), Lo/High Shelf, and Lo/High Pass filters all work just like on the DCX2496. Here are a few tips:

1.  Click the drop down on the routing box and select 5.1. This will give you the correct routing for your system. If you want to change the groups and view each channel independently,  you click on the routing box instead of the routing drop down arrow. You can then specify more routing options. I have mine set up to show each channel separately in a 7.1 configuration.

2.  In the Spectrum section in the bottom right, you can use the Edit button to change the frequencies that are shown for a channel. For the LFE channel, you can change it from 1 to 2000 Hz. This also allows you to apply EQ down to 1 Hz instead of being limited at 20 Hz like in the DCX2496.

3.  Using the Presets button in the top left, you can add a new bank of presets. I called mine HTPC. You can then add new presets to this bank. One of them you can specify as the Default and it will load each time you open MC.

4.  In the upper left side there is a drop down box next to the word "Underlay." By clicking this you can underlay a channel group under another channel group. For example, using the default 5.1 routing, you can select the Front channel group. You can then click the LFE channel to underlay the Front channel group. Now you can see the crossover interaction between the Fronts and the LFE channel.

There is currently no way to easily measure what is happening after you have applied the EQ by having MC running. You can run REW and then set up your filters, but you can't then measure their results. This is because you can't route the output from REW through MC. In the beta forum I have requested the ability to do this. An alternative is to use the GlissEQ plugin in a VST host program like Reaper. You can setup the program Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) as your output in REW. Then setup VAC as your input in Reaper. You can now test your EQ just using the GlissEQ plugin in Reaper. Alternatively, "you can save the 'Pink PN' signal from the REW signal generator to a WAV file and use the REW RTA with that" (quoted from JohnM at HomeTheaterShack). Play the WAV file with MC with the EQ and visually watch its frequency response in REW.

[nwboater]

Wow - what a fantastic well thought out and helpful response! Thanks very much, Michael. I just checked the price for the Gliss EQ and I don't think it's too bad for what it does.

When I get a good chunk of time - maybe next weekend - I'll buy it and start to integrate it into the system. I'm sure at that time I'll find all your tips very helpful, but will probably have a few questions if you don't mind.

Bummer that we can't use REW with MC. Hope they will try to integrate it as you requested. It is very commonly used, and I certainly need it for our sub!

Thanks again,
Rod

[nwboater]

I'm finally trying to get my mind around what is needed to get the Multiple Parametric Equalizers and REW functioning with MC. It looks like there are two very similar methods that will achieve what I need.

Mojave Method:   (From post above)

"I use Voxengo's GlissEQ  and took my DCX2496 out of the system. It isn't free, but is cheaper than a DCX2496. GlissEQ does have a full featured demo available. It is one of the only multi-channel EQ's that I could find. Most others are just two channel. You need a multi-channel EQ to pass the other channels through even if you are only applying EQ to the LFE channel. GlissEQ offers greater precision and more filters than the DCX2496.

While GlissEQ calls itself a "dynamic EQ," the Plain Peaking (parametric), Lo/High Shelf, and Lo/High Pass filters all work just like on the DCX2496.

There is currently no way to easily measure what is happening after you have applied the EQ by having MC running. You can run REW and then set up your filters, but you can't then measure their results. This is because you can't route the output from REW through MC. In the beta forum I have requested the ability to do this. An alternative is to use the GlissEQ plugin in a VST host program like Reaper. You can setup the program Virtual Audio Cable (VAC)  as your output in REW. Then setup VAC as your input in Reaper. You can now test your EQ just using the GlissEQ plugin in Reaper."


Brad C Method:   http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=58725.msg400912#msg400912

"With the use of a VST host called Console you can achieve what the OP wishes.

Here's how it would work: You do all your bass management and EQ using vst plugins inside the Console host (no jriver bass management used). Console loads as a VST plugin inside jriver.

To use REW, run console externally to jriver and test the vst plugin settings.

Console uses asio. To get the external operation to work you need to route the output of REW to asio. This can be achieved with virtual audio cable and ASIO4All (or soundcards that have loopback)."


The difference in the two methods as best I can determine is that Mojave uses Reaper as a VST host and Brad C uses Console as the host. Console costs a little bit more, but I'm wondering what functional differences there may be in the two programs for our use within MC. Any advantages of one over the other? Ease of use for my newbiness? Any other differences in the two methods?

To sum up it looks like I will need to purchase either Reaper or Console, Gliss EQ and Virtual audio Cable to make this all work. Right?

Thank you both for all your help in this confusing setup.

Rod

[mojave]

You can try any of the programs before you buy them. You might want to experiment before you spend any money. I would start by getting familiar with Gliss EQ. You can use REW to measure and generate filters. Then enter the filters into Gliss EQ. This will give you the same functionality as the DCX2496, but you won't be able to visually see the results. However, since you have used REW you might be comfortable with entering the filters without retesting. Once the filters are in place, you can easily turn Gliss EQ on/off and see if you like the filters. You can even A/B with two different filter settings. Once you feel like you have the filters entered, I would next play the REW generated wav file through MC while monitoring with REW. This will give you an idea of how flat your system is after all filters.

By this time, you will change something in your system and have to start all over. You will never get past the first step, so don't worry about the rest. 

Reaper is a host, but not a VST plugin so you can't use it in MC. Otherwise, you use Reaper or Console with VAC the same way to test the filters in Gliss EQ. I would just use whatever program you feel comfortable with after you test both of them.

[BradC]

There is a free VST host called... VSThost. You can use this to test the plugins outside of MC, for use with REW.

I believe that is may have its own vst plugin, but have to check this, and since I am still having trouble with console I might try this out. I did have Console remembering presets, but then it stopped doing so.

There is a free convolver plugin (that can be used for EQ) called... convolver.

To generate the input for the convolver you can use the free DRC (digital room correction) http://drc-fir.sourceforge.net/

You will need to read the documentation on the website to understand what DRC does. But you can supply your own house curve to use as EQ (but it does more than that).

For bass management you could use what is supplied in MC.
Or use a free vst plugin http://www.kellyindustries.com/bass_manager.html
Or you could use the bass management in the soundcard driver (probably your best option)

The reason I would prefer using Console in MC (and wire all the vsts inside console) is that then you can guarantee that the sound is treated the same outside of MC (when measured with REW) as inside. this would be true for bass management in the driver too.

So for your case, I think this would work: Bass management in driver; single vst plugin in MC to do EQ'
Outside MC: VAC, Asio4All and VSThost to route the sound through the vst plugin. Use REW to measure sound and set EQ in vst plugin in vsthost

Here are some threads of ppl that have done this before
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/7347-using-convolver-universally-htpc.html
http://martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?p=105651
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/63078-how-pc-xo-132.html

[nwboater]

Whew, my head is starting to hurt! Seriously Michael and Brad, I greatly appreciate all your suggestions here. Earlier today I downloaded trials of Gliss EQ, Reaper and VAC. I installed Gliss EQ in MC and started to play with it a bit, but haven't done any EQ yet. Too many other obligations this weekend, darn it.

I just took a look at my sound card software for the Asus Essence ST. I wasn't aware that I could do Bass Management there, but I can. At first glance it seems that MC's is more powerful, but I need to spend some time comparing them.

Michael it seems I recall you using Convolver some time ago. Is there a reason you aren't now?

It looks like there are many ways to go with this, and I have lots more reading to do. I love free and real cheap, but don't mind paying some if it either works better or is easier to use. Thanks for the links. I now have lots more reading and researching to do and am sure I'll have a bunch of questions soon.

Thanks again,
Rod

[mojave]

I just took a look at my sound card software for the Asus Essence ST. I wasn't aware that I could do Bass Management there, but I can. At first glance it seems that MC's is more powerful, but I need to spend some time comparing them.

I have spent quite a bit of time with the Asus bass management. I even started a thread at AVSFourm about the quality of bass crossovers. Since then, MC has greatly improved their bass management and I think it offers the most flexibility and best quality of anything available.

Michael it seems I recall you using Convolver some time ago. Is there a reason you aren't now?

I wanted to get the DCX2496 out of my system to simplify things. However, it allowed me to play with different crossover slopes, distance settings, and level settings. Both the Creative (I also have a X-Fi Elite Pro) and Asus drivers lack in the bass management area. Because MC at the time didn't support DSP's and VST plugins for movies, I was trying to find another method. MC also didn't have bass management and distance/level settings. This is why I experimented with Reaper, Virtual Audio Cable, convolver, Audiolense, Jack, etc. MC then allowed movies be able to use the DSP's and VST plugins. Then I started looking for and trying various VST plugins to do what I wanted. I wanted it to be simple, work with any sample rate, work with any number of channels, and be able to be changed easily.

I finally settled on and purchased the Voxengo BMS and GlissEQ plugins. I also installed the free Voxengo Sound Delay plugin. I now had bass management, delay/distance settings, and paramentric EQ. MC then started working on their Room Correction DSP. I was able to use some of what I learned using the Voxengo plugins to help provide suggestions for MC. Once MC provided what I needed, I switched to the Room Correction plugin and now just have GlissEQ available as a parametric EQ.

[BradC]

What were your experiences with audiolense like?

As far as I can tell, MC doesn't yet offer a convolver for filters generated in audiolense and the like.

[nwboater]

UPDATE

I finally got a good chunk of time this weekend with my wife gone for a few days. I have eliminated the Behringer DCX2496 that was used for sub equalization. I purchased the Gliss EQ VST Plugin as recommended by Mojave. It's working great and I  now have multiple parametric equalizers online on the sub channel. If desired I can also do separate equalizing on all the other speakers in our 5.1 system.

All bass management is handled by MC.

Since MC can't deal with REW (sure hope they will get that going soon!) I followed Mojave's suggestion and made pink noise files from the REW program. Played these files back briefly from MC and manually captured the RTA in REW. With that frequency response plot I was able to dial in the needed filters in Gliss EQ. I need to do a little more of this, but the system is now very listenable with excellent SQ. With our Klipschorn mains and Danley DTS-10 sub we have relatively flat output from 11 hz to 20khz and at insanely high levels (still clean) if desired!

So I'm very pleased with all that MC allows doing in our now receiver-less (soundcard outs straight to power amps) system. What is still needed from MC is some kind of line input so other sources can be played back through the system. This is a BIG missing link! Also needed is a way to directly deal with REW. The future line input may solve that issue. Then all the features - waterfalls, etc of REW can be utilized.

A real big thanks to Mojave for sharing all his research and explaining how to solve the puzzles! Also thanks to BradC for his suggestions. I decided to keep everything within MC, but really appreciate you alternate suggestions.

Rod

[mojave]

What were your experiences with audiolense like?

As far as I can tell, MC doesn't yet offer a convolver for filters generated in audiolense and the like.

I'm a little late in responding to this. I used the supplied filters with audiolense for testing with my system just to see how all the settings worked and whether I could use it in MC. It seems like a very nice program. I would probably use it if I needed active crossovers. I also tried both Convolver and Voxengo Pristine Space as VST plugins to load the convolution files from audiolense. Both plugins worked for this purpose. I didn't spend a lot of time with audiolense and never used any real data from my system. I was trying to see if it "would" work vs "how well" it works. It was a little complex for my needs so I didn't pursue it any further.