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Author Topic: Library questions  (Read 2793 times)

baba100

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Library questions
« on: August 30, 2010, 03:59:27 am »

I realize with the time “smartlist” is not fully dynamically playlist like someone says here before.
Yes, if you create “smartlist” that point to some folder, you will have the songs/movies list on your screen
this happened thanks to the “auto import”. “smartlist” just make the selection for you.

As long you ONLY add files to folder everything is ok. Whatever your decision to add files by explorer or by MC…
When it’s come to delete/rename files from folder you must use MC to do it, otherwise you will get “orphaned thumbnail”

As I had been told by one of the engineers here “there is nothing to fix”. I really don’t want to indulge in polemics, but if may I describe the problem again.

Firstly,
I believe to limit user to use copy/delete/rename only via MC its wrong, I do believe lots of user’s mobiles they USB drive from PC to PC
and add/delete/rename files.

Secondly,
look how much is ridiculous, I delete folder with 120 files VIA MC like I had been told.
I choose: delete, and remove from library
after week, I create the same folder and put back the same files I have before – nothing happen.
MC refuse to recognize the files and create new “smartlist” – if the data was delete from the library DB, how come MC don’t not recognize the new files?

So, I went to files> library and add manually folder to library , I choose this folder and all the files come back nicely - here is the surprise – all the files come back and MC create new thumbnail for them, BUT when I play the files they start to play from the last point they played before the deletions!!!!
How come MC keeps the details if I chose “delete and remove from library” ?


1. I think if user choose delete, and remove from library nothing had to stay in the library DB

2. I also think you should provide a separate tool to edit library DB, today MC is the most popular HTPC software, and lot of users keep lot of date in. when  
    it’s come to keep and track hundreds files, its be better if we have powerful tool to edit the DB, tag, list, name, etc…

3. Also, I think “smartlist” need to be more dynamically, if files is not there MC should remove the thumbnail (unless user chose not to do it automatically)

As I like MC, and want to enjoy it, I hope I’ll get positive answers.

Sincerely

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Matt

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Re: Library wonderment
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 09:58:07 am »

You can freely make file-system changes outside of Media Center.

If you do this, we recommend you leave auto-import enabled and looking at the folders you use so the database in Media Center is automatically reconciled with the external changes.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

baba100

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Re: Library wonderment
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 12:15:38 am »

Hi Matt

Thanks for the answer.

I made lot of test about it. If you delete file via windows explorer MC will not recognize the delete file and you get orphaned thumbnail. Whatever you set auto-import enabled, and update for external change.
See fitbrit answer here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=58497.msg400287#msg400287
Please check.

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MrHaugen

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Re: Library wonderment
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 06:23:39 am »

You have a lot to learn about how MC and it's library works. The things you describe is very logical why they happen, and some of it can be prevented.

1. You believe it's wrong that MC should not recognize the deleted files, and move them from the library. I strongly disagree. What happens if your network connection drop? What if you unplug the disk, what if the controller get screwed? All the files would be gone from the library. With the ADDITION of your last suggestion, not a thing would be rememberd by MC, because all traces is wiped clean. All those hours you used to find meta data for your movies or rating of your music is gone. No, this is NOT the way. I admit that a small option to the auto import could be useful. Where you can identify each folder as more dynamic and hazardous folder. BUT it is very few people that want to use MC in this way in my opinion, and would probably be a waste to add code for.

2. When you delete files, there is a hidden library that keeps a track on what things that have been deleted previously. IF you do not choose to ignore previously deleted files in the Auto import, you will end up with the files not being added again. This is just a user error, and not MC's fault.

3. This is where you expect things to be wiped clean toatlly when removeing things from the library. This CAN be done, but is is a very good safety thing for those that for instance accidentally delete files. If you ABSOLUTELY have to delete all, you can find the deleted files by using "a=~" or something like that, in the search box, and delete those again. Don't remember exactly the expression now.

4. You ask for a database tool. Why do you need that? You have very powerful tools, to rename, move, tag based on a LOT of criterias, mass edit fields, use custom expressions so you don't have to edit, and so on and so forth. A lot of us have ten thousands of media files on our servers or HTPC's, and those of us who know how to use this tools, never complain. Instead of complaining of missing tools, try to ask if what you want to do is possible with what we got in MC. I can almost guarantee you that it does.

5. Smartlists works as the library it self. If the file is deleted, or the disk is missing, the library does not remove the files. Because of this the tumbnails does not get deleted either. And thank god for that. I often play a series and add a custom thumbnail on it, because the ones I got are at a bad position in the series, or it just looks bad. If those got messed up each time my server goes down, there would be hell to pay :)


Your whole problem seems to be tied with the fact that you want to use media in very temporary directories with media being added and deleted all the time. If that is the case, perhaps you should use Explorer most of the time and just right click to issue commands in MC? Either that, or you can actually try to use some of MC's real strengths, add some views, panes and more columns so you can start using MC more effectively than explorer. If you can keep your jobs inside MC, all your troubles would go away.



I don't think this is the exact answers you want. But there is just not much more positive answers you will get I'm afraid.
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fitbrit

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Re: Library wonderment
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 09:01:58 am »

I think you may have an option selected that accounts for some of what you noticed. There is an option to prevent MC from re-importing files that you have deleted from the MC library. You can reset this option and can re-import a file you removed from the library previously.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 11:30:16 am »

What I said in number 2 :)
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fitbrit

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 12:05:44 pm »

What I said in number 2 :)

I'd planned to write this last night, and I realised that you had said it. However, I thought some repetition would emphasise it... and also I thought I'd state explicitly that it was an option - in case he thought that you meant he personally was "ignoring" something, not MC! :)
I should have referred back to your number 2 statement.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 05:04:27 pm »

Hehe. No problem. I was just in that annoying mood :D
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baba100

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 12:08:17 am »

Hi MrHaugen

Sorry, for late reply, my time is UTC +8

I’m very happy to receive your comment.

Firstly let me give you short review about my (we) use MC.
For us MC is not only media player, it’s also media files organizer. I have 7400 media files (movies and songs) and we use it in multi library mode, also we use a lot the automatic mode (running schedule play list).
To the points MrHaugen mantions:

after reading carefully yours comments, we only have different opines about what should be done in MC.

1. I agree, I have a lot to learn about MC, but no one buy software and learn all the functionality.
    Users, learn functionality based on they needs.  Does a user know ALL windows explorer functionality? No, average user know his software based
    on what  he want to do commonly.


2.Delete files, and orphaned thumbnail:

2.1 I’m aware for your concern what happened if network connections done, or you remove your 
     USB pen. I also think you right in this point.

2.2 I believe most of users keeps they files in the same machine MC installed, it’s not so
     commonly peoples keep files on different machine and play it via network connections, it’s         
     too slow, unless it’s a USB connections…

2.3 MC is the main player in the HTCP software, and you also must consider it as a media
     organizer

2.4 why, to limit user to do everything inside MC? According what you say, to keep the DB 
     update user can add files to MC machine in any way, but when it’s come to delete/rename
     we must use MC, it’s come to be more inconvenient when we want to edit/delete/rename
     files in different machine, while sometime is better, and faster, according what you say USB
     drive lost the mobilize advantage.

2.5 When user delete files, (through MC) and choose remove from library, and delete from hard 
     drive, we can assume the user don’t want this files anymore – agree? If so why MC still keep
     the date of the delete files? And prevent from user to re adding this file? Surely you say look
     at "a=~” but this is the point, if user choose remove from library, and delete from hard 
     drive he ABSOLUTELY no need the files. (And BTW how many users know about the "a=~”)

For conclusion, I think you should consider add the ability to handle with temporally files.

Thanks for the positive answer.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 03:44:03 am »

2.2 I believe most of users keeps they files in the same machine MC installed, it’s not so
     commonly peoples keep files on different machine and play it via network connections, it’s         
     too slow, unless it’s a USB connections…

Then you have not tried cabled networks. It's fast enough for most of us. It's even cheap with 1GB switches this days. I believe that there is MANY of MC's users that have their own NAS or a dedicated file server for their media.

2.3 MC is the main player in the HTCP software, and you also must consider it as a media
     organizer

I'm soon hitting the 30K files mark, so I'm VERY aware of the organizing role of MC.

2.5 When user delete files, (through MC) and choose remove from library, and delete from hard 
     drive, we can assume the user don’t want this files anymore – agree? If so why MC still keep
     the date of the delete files? And prevent from user to re adding this file? Surely you say look
     at "a=~” but this is the point, if user choose remove from library, and delete from hard 
     drive he ABSOLUTELY no need the files. (And BTW how many users know about the "a=~”)

I'm not saying that you HAVE to do it this way. You seems to be very interested in deleting ALL traces of the media, and THAT is how it can be done. What me and Fitbrit have tried to tell you, is that if you actually take the time to look through the options on the Auto Import page, you'll notice an option which prevents adding previously deleted files. It have nothing to do with MC. Only problem is that you have not noticed it.

When I first stated playing with MC11 was to go through each and every option, so I knew what CAN be done. Lot's of users skip right to the cream, and forget to look into all the possibilities. And then they come here to ask obvious questions :)
What you probably CAN do is to use the Auto import correctly, to skip previously deleted files, then you could perhaps schedule a command to remove missing links, or somehow clean up the library. I've never had the use of this, but I think that it can be done somehow.
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fitbrit

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 06:53:56 pm »

I agree with MrHaugen - a LOT of people use media servers these days. I have a 23 TB server and it's fast enough to stream full bitrate BluRay over gigabit ethernet (which has a theoretical bandwidth higher than USB 2.0). The advantage of a NAS or a media server is that any PC on your home network has access to the files.
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baba100

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 08:09:05 pm »

Hi fitbrit

The Network connection is only one example, and not the point of the discussion.

The point of the discussion is: should users do all the delete/rename files by MC? Or also by windows explorer – (With every the understood from it)


The fact is: when user delete/rename files by windows explorer MC show orphaned thumbnail.

Question to be asked: is it possible to add MC the ability to recognized files that delete or renamed by windows explorer, and keep the DB running well?

MC team answer is: no.


I still believe yes, it’s only question of rewriting part of MC code and I believe they not happy to do it.
MC should face users that want to delete files or rename files outside MC.
solution can be by adding “Dynamical playlist” that show what you have NOW in particular folder.
I’m sure most of users want to be able to delete files or rename files via windows explorer and MC recognizes those change.

BTW.
why not to ask all of yours users this question and let them say they opinion?
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rick.ca

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Re: Library questions
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 08:35:53 pm »

Baba100, it seems you don't understand who you're talking to. Matt is the lead developer. The rest of us are users—just like you. It also seems you're not understanding what you've been told...

You can freely make file-system changes outside of Media Center. If you do this, we recommend you leave auto-import enabled and looking at the folders you use so the database in Media Center is automatically reconciled with the external changes.

So the "MC team answer" was not "no." It was a unequivocal "yes"—from the leader of the team! I shouldn't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure all the rest of us users agree with him. Auto-import already does what you ask. There's no need for any changes.
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