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Author Topic: Resampling  (Read 2572 times)

Matias

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Resampling
« on: December 05, 2010, 11:39:22 am »

I have a DAC which accepts up to 176kHz, but not 192kHz.

I wish to resample 192 to 176 and leave 176 as is, but there is no option in the DSP combo.
Plus if I play 176, it will downsample to 176 again?  ?

These resample rates should be user-selectable, or at least have many more options in the combo.

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glynor

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 01:48:51 pm »

As the dialog says right there: "No changes are made if the same sample rate is selected as the input."  So, no, obviously it does not resample 176kHz to 176kHz.

You can use any of the three resampling options.  Unless there is some weird reason you don't want to resample the rare files below 44.1kHz or those above 96kHz to 176kHz, the settings available should provide exactly what you need.  But seriously, how many files below 44.1kHz do you have (and do you care if they're upsampled)?  Likewise, how many files do you have that are greater than 96kHz but yet not 176kHz or greater (and again, you don't want them upsampled)?

Remember, MC uses an audiophile quality upsampler.  There is no reason not to just upsample everything, because any errors introduced will be mathematically below the audible threshold.  (Of course, there is also really no reason to upsample those high sample-rate files, but it also does no harm, and probably could help compatibility with some DACs.)

But even if you still want to avoid this, for whatever reason, there is a way to exclude all of the most common sample-rates and limit up/down-sampling to places where it can hardly do any damage.
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glynor

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 02:09:19 pm »

By the way, this article is worth a read (particularly the second page).  In it, the author discusses a reason that maybe, just barely, for certain people, could explain why using sample rates above 48kHz is worthwhile.  But even if you assume that it is true, this only explains 96kHz.  Anything above that...  ::)
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Matias

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 02:42:06 pm »

Well, actually I liked ressampling everything to 176kHz, so in a way it solved my problem.

But still, audiophiles are strange people and maybe someone will want to keep lower sample rated unchanged and downsample the higher ones.
I see no reason for the combo not to have more options.

Thank you. The ressampler does sound excellent indeed.
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1. Sonore ultraRendu - UpTone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
2. LG 65UM7470PSA - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NCore MP mch - Monitor Audio Platinum PL100+PLC150 - SVS SB-3000
3. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP
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TontonGuigui

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 09:44:16 am »

Hi,

Quote
There is no reason not to just upsample everything, because any errors introduced will be mathematically below the audible threshold.

Actually there is one reason : you've got an external upsampler that you want to use instead of the MC one (a hardware one for instance).

I too would like to choose those values, that is lower and upper limits.
Right now it fits my needs just right but I've got the feeling I will need to be able to pick values (I'm about to test a new digital interface).

TontonGuigui
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glynor

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 10:47:17 am »

Actually there is one reason : you've got an external upsampler that you want to use instead of the MC one (a hardware one for instance).

And that's fine, because MC allows you to do this.  However, one common misconception about computing in general that annoys me has to do with hardware vs software.... I'm not suggesting that you are making this mistake, TontonGuigui, I just figured this was a good opportunity to rant a little.

[nerdrant]
When you take an algorithm and reproduce it in silicon (make a "hardware" version), that process does not magically make it "better" or "higher quality" than an identical software implementation of the same algorithm.  In fact, because of transistor budgets and error correcting capabilities (coupled with the fact that integrated circuit design is hard), many hardware implementations are of LOWER theoretical quality than their software counterparts.

All making a hardware version accomplishes is making the algorithm run FASTER (and making the system cost more).

Sometimes, "faster" does equal "better" when software isn't fast enough to do the job in real time.  A perfect example of this is in 3D graphics rendering.  While a full software rendering of a 3D scene will usually be more technically perfect, it is so much faster to render on custom GPU hardware, that it allows you to achieve high framerates for real-time playback (or it lets you get your cinematic masterpiece to theaters more quickly, and time is money).  However, GPUs cheat.  They are generally of measurably LOWER quality than a pure software renderer in certain ways (AA and AF for example) because the hardware vendors take shortcuts in hardware to save on their transistor budgets, and end up with smaller (cheaper) pieces of silicon when they order them in bulk from TSMC.  Usually these shortcuts don't impact visible quality, but there are certainly times where they do.

Implementing things in hardware can also be useful for security applications, because it makes tampering with the algorithm more difficult.  Note that it makes it more difficult, but certainly not impossible.  Many "hardware" implementations are actually done using FPGA chips which are essentially somewhere between hardware and software, and even if it is custom silicon, hardware is just as prone to bugs as software.  It also can serve to make logic more opaque to reverse engineering, though this sometimes backfires (you can, after all, look at any integrated circuit with an electron microscope and trace the actual electron paths).  Security concerns are the main reasons that things like TPM and other "DRM-like" security schemes were implemented in hardware.  Of course, that didn't help prevent people from cracking AACS immediately, so this is certainly of dubious value in many cases.

However, for audio processing, the general purpose CPU in your computer is plenty powerful enough to process TONS of audio streams in real time on the fly.  There is no technical reason to make the algorithms faster.  Now, you may believe that your hardware maker implemented a proprietary (and apparently secret from the entire mathematical world) algorithm that is better than what MC uses.  That's fine if that's what you believe, I suppose, but you should understand that THAT is what you are "believing".  I would personally tend to believe that a good, high quality algorithm is a good high-quality algorithm regardless of how it is implemented.  And, frankly, those high-end component makers do suffer from some serious cost constraints.  Even though you may feel like you pay a premium for the product, getting custom bulk silicon runs from TSMC or Global Foundries is EXTREMELY expensive and time consuming and requires a huge team of dedicated hardware engineers to do properly.  To manufacture using new process tech, we're talking investments of BILLIONS of dollars a year in engineering time and just raw silicon cost.  I'd bet that the vast majority of those "high end" chip designs are probably machine designed and implemented using FPGA chips due to cost concerns.  Those few that are using actual custom silicon, if any actually exist, probably are built using process tech that is YEARS behind.  Plus, if you discover a bug, it is pretty expensive to fix it (to order a whole new respin from TSMC), so they probably just ignore it.

Being "hardware" doesn't automatically make it "better".  In fact, in many real-world cases, the opposite is true.
[/nerdrant]
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TontonGuigui

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 03:17:35 pm »

Quote
I'm not suggesting that you are making this mistake, TontonGuigui, I just figured this was a good opportunity to rant a little.

Fair enough :)
I really mean to use MC for room correction and more fun, so I am definitely bought to this idea.

In my particular case, going external also means :
  • Having plenty of extra digital inputs
  • Selectable filters
  • Selectable output properties (samplerate, words length, ...)
  • Clock synchronization with the dac (which points to the fact that this is not just a resampling feature)
  • Many more options :)

Apart from synchronization and extra inputs, though, the rest can really be done at software level, no doubt about that.

TontonGuigui
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glynor

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 03:33:24 pm »

In my particular case, going external also means :

Oh, I agree.  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to do so!  I just get annoyed by the common belief, particularly among "audiophiles" it seems, that "my X device must be better because it was $11k and it has a hardware such-and-such device in it".

But then, people have an unbelievable need to justify their actions after the fact in order to validate their choices.  ::)
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Matias

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 03:43:20 pm »

Nice rant indeed. But agreed, this ressample sounds goooood. :)
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1. Sonore ultraRendu - UpTone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
2. LG 65UM7470PSA - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NCore MP mch - Monitor Audio Platinum PL100+PLC150 - SVS SB-3000
3. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP
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TontonGuigui

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Re: Resampling
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 03:48:28 pm »

Quote
But then, people have an unbelievable need to justify their actions after the fact in order to validate their choices.

Agreed entirely.
And it's really boring to read such reports.

As you said, computers are plenty powerful enough to do the computation.
In a way, this is just moving the software part from the fpga to the computer.

I guess that would be a great move to define the part that should remain hardware, and define a norm on how to use it.
Then the software could really help the user in customizing the output to the initial need (RC, filters, samplings, synchro, ...).
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