INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: What Is The Best Format II  (Read 1075 times)

DocLotus

  • Guest
What Is The Best Format II
« on: June 07, 2002, 10:52:11 am »

Why This File?…

I have been adding to this file over time as I read what everyone has to say about file formats, size & etc.  I keep it to provide some helpful information to the new user in hopes of helping users make an educated decision about which format & bit-rate is “best” (for them).

I to, was very confused when I first started ripping my CD’s to Media Players several years ago.  I started like many others by ripping at much too high a bit-rate as I had no real idea what was really “best” (for me). I have gone through many players & several file formats over the years.  After much experimentation, I finally came up with the perfect mix of format & bit-rate that worked “best” (for me).  You “mix” may well be something entirely different, but maybe this article will help you to get started in the right direction or at least give you something concrete to think about.


It’s Up To You…

Any file format produces great sound if it is recorded at a high enough bit-rate.  But, we all have limitations of one from or another to contend with.  Disk size, how much of a hurry we are in, our age, musical listening habits, the quality of your speakers, personal preferences, & etc all contribute to the “best” recording format for you.

So… there is no so-called “best” recording format”.  It all depends on your special requirements.  For me that works out to WMA at 96KB.  For you, it may be something entirely different.


The File Format Test…

About 6-8 months ago PC Magazine had an article about a double blind test that was done comparing the quality of various ripped audio files to the original CD.

The intent was to see which ripping format came closes to the original CD in sound quality at the lowest possible bit rate.
There were several listeners in the group. They were given direct A-B comparisons but were not told what was currently playing… the original CD or a ripped file.

Various styles of music were played. All tests were done in stereo.

All listeners could tell the difference at 48kb, most could still tell the difference at 64kb, then an amazing thing happened… at 96kb,  with WMA ripped files, most could not tell the difference. A few that thought they could were only right half the time.

All other formats at 96kb were obvious to most listeners with MP3 being among the worse.

Most other formats had to play at 192kb (or higher) to come close to CD quality.

The results, according to the article, was that WMA was the best format for using the lowest amount of disk usage, is fast to rip, has very high quality at low bit rates, & is reliable.

The JRiver Plug-In page says that WMA Encoder is… “Very fast and reliable”.

This all goes to confirms what Microsoft has been saying about WMA all along.


A Second Thought About This...

When I only had a 1.6 GB drive, I needed to conserve space by encoding at the lowest bit rate. I noticed that the spectrum analyzer showed a high frequency drop off at 48kb when encoded with Real Audio or WMA as compared to the original CD. At 64kb it was not as noticeable, at 80kb non existent. So… I went to 96kb & have been very happy with it.

The sound is great. I have 10 speakers on my system (front, center, left, right, & rear right & left).

Every time I think I hear a flaw in the sound, I play the original CD & usually find the flaw was on the CD.
I read a lot about ripping at higher bit rates but think it mostly depends on the format.

Are there other considerations other then apparent sound quality, frequency response, etc that I may be missing?
What do you think?  Read on.

Some More Thoughts On Ripping Speeds & Formats…

People often rip at to high a speed as they think that is the only way to go. It all comes down to… the file format, your age, listening style, music preferences, & drive space.


Age & Hearing Abilities…

Unfortunately human hearing, being what it is, can be very deceiving & we often are not aware of some of our human limitations.

For older listeners you might try WMA at even lower ripping speeds such as 80kb or even 64kb to save even more space. As we grow older we all experience a progressive loss in high frequency hearing ability. This creeps up on us so slowly that we are usually not aware of the high frequency loss. So it depends on who is actually listening to the music… a young or older person. If you are the only one listening to the music, then rip it at a speed commensurate to your hearing abilities. If others are going to listen to it, you might rip at a slightly higher kb rate.

The ripping speed also depends on how you normally listen to your music.


The Casual Listener…

For casual (or background) listening, select a lower ripping speed (in WMA that would be 80 or 64kb) as you will not be concentrating on the music & will not notice small flaws in the music.

The Serious Listener…

If you are a serious listener (you are doing nothing else but concentrating only on the music, there are no other distracting noises, there are no other people in the area to distract you, etc) then rip at a higher bit rate to make sure you are getting every little nuance (with WMA that would be 96 or 128kb but I see no need to go any higher under any condition).

Music Preferences…

If you only like the gut wrenching, chest pounding of really big bass with little real high frequency instruments, then a lower bit rate is all you really need as there is little high frequency content. We’re talking 64kb or maybe 80kb.

If your style is more to jazz or classical (which has a broad spectrum of frequencies) then use a higher bit rate. 80 - 96kb. A lot of very high frequency (& you are young & have high end speakers) 128kb might be marginally better.

If vocals are your thing, then we are talking about mid frequencies (but don’t forget the musical instruments). 64 – 80kb should be fine.

Drive Size…

If you are limited on available space then rip at the lowest bit rate possible that produces acceptable sound such as 48 – 80kb.

If drive space is not a problem, then use the best bit rate for your age, listening style, & music preferences.

By the way, I no longer have the 1.6 GB drive that started my search for a better & smaller ripping format. I currently have 200 GB of high speed drive space at ATA 133 RAID 0 array. But I still use WMA at 96kb as it simply “does the job” & I see no need to go to any faster ripping speed.


And Lastly, the Microsoft Myth…

I hear from some people about WMA being from Microsoft…

“There are to many strings attached”, or “I don’t trust them”, or “They might be secretly taking information from my computer”.
This is absolute nonsense! Let’s be realistic. WMA is a simple file format & that’s all it is. If it was doing funny things it would have to be much larger then it is. After all, WMA produces some of the smallest files out there. Also Microsoft would have much better ways to get information from you through the Windows operating system itself as few of us has any idea what they all do.

So forget the Microsoft nonsense & simply enjoy the great music.
Logged

Matt

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 42323
  • Shoes gone again!
RE:What Is The Best Format II
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2002, 11:09:10 am »

I must have funny ears, because I can't stand to listen to WMA, even at high bitrates.

To me, it's worth the $.50 a CD to store a digitally perfect copy.  That way, when you upgrade your stereo or when your ears "learn" the psychoacoustic tricks of the encoder, you won't be stuck reripping.

Like you say though, it's a personal choice, and most people aren't as anal-retentive as me Next Page

-Matt
Logged
Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Trelane

  • Regular Member
  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
  • Destroy him, my robots.
RE:What Is The Best Format II
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2002, 11:13:22 am »

Serious listeners would try WMA and move on to a lossless or high bitrate lossy format. The resulting WMA files are much too bright and are plagued with artifacts. Even at 160 kbps. I'm also pretty sure that WMA uses intensity stereo, which destroys surround information.

For serious listening, lossless and high bitrate lossy is the only way to go. Personal recommendations: APE, MPC, MP2, Vorbis, and MP3.

Also, let's not forget what the acronym WMA expands to: Windows Media Audio.
Logged

Gatobrit

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • Home Theatre, Walking, Fischer Bitter
RE:What Is The Best Format II
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2002, 11:44:44 am »

Well, I get Sound and Vision Mag at home http://www.soundandvisionmag.com (I checked their web site and I can't find the article posted unfortunately) and they did a test a couple of months ago and rated WMA as the best sounding codec too after a bunch of blind tests. Microsoft has got to be feeding these people a lot of something or other.

I am disk space challenged and therefore I'm using MP3 at Normal / High but would much prefer to use APE. Though I understand that streaming will be an issue with Media Server. Maybe v.9 will resolve these issues. Fingers crossed.
Logged
Namaste,
John

Cotton-Eyed Loo

  • Guest
RE:What Is The Best Format II
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2002, 03:08:05 pm »

My own opinion is that the less you're paying attention, the more background noise there is, the older you are, the worse your audio equipment .... the less the encoding or even source quality matters.

I'm the scientist type most of the time and I believe in using double blind tests to compare things. I'd point out that sometimes interpreting data is as tricky as designing the test. For example in the test you cite by PC Magazine when listeners did detect a difference they were only right half the time as to which was the original; I interpret this to say that there is a difference but that the users were not well trained at recognizing the original. If the experiment is meant to determine if there is an audible difference the results show there is. If the experiment is meant to deteremine if folks can tell which of two samples is the original - I think we can see... that they can't. Note also that the listeners themselves may be nearly deaf as far as we know.

Over all I agree with your principle DocLotus, namely that the format (and the quality selected for that format) are driven by multiple requirements and so there is no right or wrong in general.

I can afford an extra 100GB of drive space to store all my music losslessly compressed (ie without losing detail compared to the source - generally CDs for me). I also have inconveniently good hearing (in a quiet room I can tell when the processor in a pilot is working and when it is not... I can also hear if the backlight in the pilot is on, I can also tell if there is a CRT on within a few rooms, I can also tell you if my refrigerator 3 rooms over is in the middle of a duty cycle).

Finally since I don't believe in copying information against the wishes of its creator (barring conflicts with natural law and basic decent behavior) I always have the source version of my content (CD, tape) and so I can re-rip if I want. Using a lossless scheme (like Matt's KICK ASS MONEKY'S AUDIO SCHEME - thanks again and again) means that even if some quantum compression scheme comes along that can perfectly compress my music into 10 byte without losing detail, I have the copy sitting on my hard drive ready for processing - where I using a lossy compression scheme (like MP3 or OGG or MPC) I would want to re-rip from CD (takes me about 7 minutes a CD and I have about 400 of them).

The bottom line is very near!

Rip one of your favorite tunes in 12 diffierent configurations (ogg, mp3 192, mp3 170, some other mp3, some WMA, some ogg, APE, and raw WAV) and then figure out how much each would cost you to use and choose based on the balance between your budget, your listening needs, and your convenience.
Logged

KingSparta

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 20062
RE:What Is The Best Format II
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2002, 05:16:15 pm »

The Older You Are The More Your Thankfull You Can Hear In Any Format.

The Army Killed My Ears With A 35%-45% Loss And Older Age Got The Rest.
Logged
Retired Military, Airborne, Air Assault, And Flight Wings.
Model Trains, Internet, Ham Radio, Music
https://MyAAGrapevines.com
https://centercitybbs.com
Fayetteville, NC, USA
Pages: [1]   Go Up