Topic: Album View v2: Another test version available (Read 7234 times)

RhinoBanga · « **on:** June 06, 2002, 10:57:25 am »

Friends,

I have uploaded another test copy of version 2 onto my website and I would like some people to try it out and give me feedback on the following:

1) How long did it take to create the database
2) How long did it take to load the database (e.g. exiting then re-entering MJ or via the File/Open Database menu option)
3) How much quicker is the overview screen and general browsing of albums within AV
4) How long did it take to resize thumbnails

**** AGAIN THIS VERSION IS ONLY A TEST VERSION ****

It has TONS of bugs so really all I would like to know is the above (along with your machine spec, the number of albums/tracks/thumbnails if possible). Timing information and counts can be found in the new activity log ... View/Screen/Activity Log.

Once you have finished testing, uninstall V2 and reinstall v1.0.3 to get back full functionality. Also you should probably delete the "Default.avd" database file that will have been created. It resides in your installation directory.

Advance HTML Link:

Album View v2: Another Test Version Available Here!

I should be moving to alpha stage this weekend.

Thanks for your help.

bennyd · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2002, 12:05:55 pm »

Hi Rhino,

Here is a screenshot with the times on how long it takes to create and load the dbase.

And here are my system settings:

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.293
Install Path: C:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium 4 1499 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 523 MB, Free - 136 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Workstation 5.1 (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2600.0000
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
wnaspi32.dll: 4.70 , ASPI for Win32 (95/NT) DLL, Copyright © 1989-2001 Adaptec, Inc.
Aspi32.sys: 4.7

Ilmar · « **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2002, 01:02:51 pm »

Media Jukebox encountered a problem during the scan, so I was not able to determine any timings, the MS problem box obscured the log, and it would not redraw when the box was moved.

Subsequent startups worked fine until:

Reading Thumbnails (33752331)

and MJ crashes

PS the previous test version: when I came to uninstall, it attempted to uninstall MJ8.
So before installing this test version I deleted all files in the installation directory manually.

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.293
Install Path: C:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: AMD Athlon 1195 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 392 MB, Free - 263 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Workstation 5.1 (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2600.0000
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
wnaspi32.dll: 4.60 (1021) , ASPI for Win32 (95/NT) DLL, Copyright © 1989-1999 Adaptec, Inc.
Aspi32.sys: 4.60 (1021)

Ilmar

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2002, 01:36:42 pm »

Hi, it took 37 minutes
895 Artists
2890 Albums
34721 Tracks
177 images

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.293
Install Path: C:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium III 691 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 129 MB, Free - 0 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows Me

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2600.0000
ComCtl32.dll: 5.50.4704.1100
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shell32.dll: 5.50.4134.100
wnaspi32.dll: 2, 0, 0, 0 , ASPI for WIN32 DLL, Copyright © Adaptec 1995
Aspi32.sys: N/A

Restarting MJ first time 1 minute
Second time 5 minutes

Not funny when you see that it has to load each time again.

nila · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2002, 02:44:53 pm »

Damn dude,
that's a LOT of albums Next Page

Mine took 4.30 to do the full scan.
Then instantly gave me an error saying a mismatch in numbers (sync error) and so didn't bother displaying any of the data Next Page

Same problem I had before.
Love the new design though.

Looks great and I like the fact it now tells me what it's doing instead of just going crazy and freezing up till it's done.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2002, 10:14:06 pm »

Nila/Ilmar:

Can you email me your MJ database please so I can try the scan here ... my email addy is jamie@jdnet.co.uk

Neanderthaler:

As Nila said ... that is a hell of a lot of albums. I have a few ideas on how to speed up loading but I would recommend you get more memory as that will instantly make things a lot faster.

nila · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2002, 04:33:05 am »

Neanderthal,

With that many albums I'm presuming you have a lot of hard drive space and use your computer quite a lot.

I'd really suggest you add another chip of RAM in, a 256 stick would probably be enough if you dont have much spare cash.
You can pick them up really cheap these days and I think you'd be hugely shocked at how much your systems speed and reliability improoved after you added it.

Mike · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2002, 04:55:14 am »

Neanderthaler

How in the hell do you have so many albums??

I mean you must have a team ripping cd's for you !!!

Do you even know what you have?

nila · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2002, 06:15:34 am »

He's probably been collecting them since the first computers were born Next Page

And I doubt he does which is why he's waiting so anxiously for Album View so that it can reduce them to simply 3000 rather than 3000xNumberOfTracksPerAlbum.
lol

Album View's got it's hands full trying to optimise it with his system.

I've often wondered how many albums/songs other people have.
Doubt I'm likely to find anyone with more than him though.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #9 on:** June 07, 2002, 07:19:36 am »

I'm doing pretty well optimising it.

Originally loading the AV database took 1 minute on my machine and I have now got that down to 30 seconds. Hopefully I should get that down even further but the biggest problem he will have is the thumbnail creation stage. My timings do not reflect that as I do not have his artwork.

Definately more memory will make things much more quicker.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #10 on:** June 07, 2002, 08:51:01 am »

It looks like I am going to have to redesign my database to get the best performance Next Page

Currently I use classes everywhere and single stepping thru them all and writing out each individual entry is slowing things down (e.g. Neanderthal's 34,000 tracks invokes 34,000 VB put's to write out a track class entry which only contains around 6 long's). Moving the majority of the data out of the classes and into an array of structures only incur's one vb put and speeds things up no-end.

Looks like I'm going to be delayed again while I re-jig things around.

I'll keep you all posted.

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #11 on:** June 07, 2002, 10:23:14 am »

The reason that I have that many albums is 1) I work for 25 years for a recordcompany (Sony Music ISC Haarlem) were we can buy an amount of cds per month for a very nice price 2.2 Euro. (by the way, the firm is closing its location so I'm out of a job in October.)
I start to create all cd's in mp3 form 1 year ago, which was finished in Feb.
2) I'm a music freak and download realy much at Emusic which contains a lot of music I realy like, anhd of course I did download some albums via other paths.

Now don't get me wrong, but it sounds realy silly that I have to expand my memory because someone created a new program which I not realy need, I was doing a favour to Rhino to help him with his program
I don't have any problems with memory what so ever, have 2 disks of 80gig and one disk of 20 that is running all programs.I will buy a new comp in oktober so expanding is realy of no use!
Even in the case that I would expand my memory I dont think Rhino's program could fullfill the needs,
meaning if you want to use his prog it should keep a memorystate in rstead of constant loading
Once again, don't get me wrong I'm just trying to help
Regards
Neanderthaler

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #12 on:** June 07, 2002, 10:39:22 am »

Neanderthaler,

Please don't take offence.

All we're pointing out that is that to use a graphically and memory intensive application like AV having more than 128mb of memory would definately help as it would using, say, Paint Shop Pro.

Version 1 of AV *was* a constant loading application (i.e. every time if needed data/graphics it loaded them from the source) ... but V2 is a memory state one (i.e. everything is pre-formatted and loaded into memory). The problem is though that the memory requirements for the size of your database easily outstrip your physical RAM and as such virtual memory (i.e. HDD) is being constantly referenced. And as we all know any form of physical I/O slows down any processing.

I'm thankfull that you posted your information to me as I have been busting a gut today trying to decrease my memory usage and loading times for large database users like yourself. In the next version you will definately see better performance.

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #13 on:** June 07, 2002, 10:47:07 am »

I don't and did not take any offence, and also did not want to insult or make you feel insulted by any means.
And I will use your program again, but what I mean is that if you close down Media Jukebox with or without restarting your computer your prog. should still contain all information and pops it up in a split sec.
Is this correct?
And you are saying that due to my shortcoming of memory (which is still 128 by the way)this is not possible?
Or are you saying that MJ should not be closed down, and in that case you can open albumview in a split sec.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2002, 10:57:23 am »

Neanderthaler,

AV is started/stopped with MJ and as such all memory is lost upon exiting.

The only upside is that (in theory) the AV database should be in virtual memory if you exit and re-enter MJ straight away ... if not then the OS will probably flush it and you will incur physical I/O's to open it again.

But still when the database is opened all information has to be read, re-linked and loaded into treeview's/imagelists/etc so that the user experience of AV is instantaneous.

Out of curiosity did/do you have V1 on your machine and if so how long did it take to scan the MJ database?

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #15 on:** June 07, 2002, 11:01:42 am »

No this is the first time I use your program!

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #16 on:** June 07, 2002, 11:30:50 am »

What I've noticed yesterday is that not all images where shown by your prog.
I know that I have 2 kinds that is BMP and JPG, the JPG did not show, is this correct?

nila · « **Reply #17 on:** June 07, 2002, 11:33:17 am »

Nead - I'd love to get my hands on your computer for a few days.
I cant imagine the kinds of music you'd have on there. It'd be music heaven.

I wasn't suggesting getting the RAM for AV.
I just meant in general for your use of the computer.
256 megs now sells for around £32 with 128 going for as little as £18
I have 756 and it's great. The computer is NEVER accessing the hard drive for memory and it's all done purely from the RAM.
The difference in performance is so different and the whole experience is soo much nicer.
I too only have a 700Mhz CPU but the RAM means it runs smoothly no matter what I'm doing.

When it does (very rarely) have to access my hard drives for extra memory it feels like the whole computer is dying as I'm so used to it all running from RAM.

It obviously depends what your doing on your computer but RAM is always nice and these days it's also nice and cheap.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #18 on:** June 07, 2002, 12:49:30 pm »

Neanderthaler,

I'm very surprised that .JPG did not show as that is what I (and others) test with and use on a daily basis.

Did you change AV to get it to use .BMP as by default it is preconfigured to use the external album artwork assigned via MJ or any " - .JPG" or " - .GIF" files in your MJ album cover folder.

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #19 on:** June 07, 2002, 01:03:11 pm »

Thanks for your advise Nila, and I would consider it was it not that I'm buying a new one, and this one is going to my son.
I can imagine you want to peek on my comp. I have all styles, but mostly the more progressive ones like metal altrock, punk, but of course also blues jazz etc.
The only thing is that I have them in 128kbs MP3 and no more space left
The good thing is that I'm funned of MP3PRO and encode them to 64kbs even most of others think bad of it
It means that I can save half the space for use., and the lost of soundqlty is minimum

Rhino, I have no images on disk they are inside the MP3file, what I ment was that I copied 2 formats in the files.
The JPG comes from All music guide, the BMP from Emusic,
and I've noticed that the ones taken from the Emusic page are shown via your program

nila · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2002, 04:26:06 pm »

Neand,
Internal images are why it's taking you so long for your scans I think.
Also, if you have a lot of mp3's it's a waste of space.
Basically it's putting the cover inside every single mp3 of each album instead of just having it saved externally once inside the album folder.
I dont know how you organise your songs, maybe you have them all in one big dir, but if you have them in seperate dir's for each album you'd be better off just putting the covers inside each dir.
That'd save you some space for a start.

Secondly, if you have so many albums, I wouldn't recommend using mp3 pro and doing them at such a low quality.
I'd imagine your investing alot of time into ripping that many albums and doing them at a low quality is just gonna mean extra work for you later when you want them at better quality for setting up a proper home jukebox or something.

Huge harddrives are cheap these days and you can use really low spec ones (generic brand slow ones) just to store the mp3's on.
A 120 gig hard drive aint that much and would let you rip a lot more albums at good quality.

Another problem you might have with using mp3 pro is that if you later invest in an mp3 player or mp3 car stereo then it's not gonna support mp3 pro and so your setting yourself up with more hassle.

Obviously if you aint got the spare money then it's worth considering other options but from what I hear, WMA is the best option for lower bitrate and at least it's supported by mp3 players and stuff.

Just suggestions, u might have spent ages tryin to work out what to use, I got no idea.
VBR mp3's using LAME is the best option though for great sounding mp3's without going too extreme on space.

Nila

Frank · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2002, 05:45:08 pm »

Just got the new build. I'm having problems with it not displaying all of my album art. For example I have The Marshall Mathers LP cover art in my cover art directory with everything else, and on the individual MP3 itself, but it does not display in album view along with all the other albums that are set up this way. Also so I do not have cover art for in the Cover Art folder, just on the MP3s itself, I enabled the individual file scan when i made the database and it seems as though some maybe all, for I don't know how many of my albums only have their cover art in the files themselves, do not display in Album View 2. Also I couldn't figure out how to work that Extractor. Just wondering if anybody else had this problem, it might be something crazy i did without knowing it.

Frank · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2002, 05:51:26 pm »

I don't know if you want this now, but I would much prefer the easy switching tabs you had in previous builds to be the way of navigation between views. Also I know Nila talked about this before, but any way you could make the right click properties more like Media Jukebox's I would like a lot. I very much like what you did to the interface with the wizard and all, but it does seem that I can't find some of the old preferences, like scanning only for art in the files, or only in the directories, there are some others that I don't remember. But once again I am off topic, you might already know this.

Frank · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2002, 06:13:38 pm »

One weird thing about most of the album art that doesn't show up on AV2 for me is that the surfboarding jukebox picture is stretched to fit the 100x100 thumbnail square, and the albums that I really don't have the surfboarding jukebox shows up normal narrow size.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2002, 10:54:06 pm »

Neanderthaler:

Nila is right in saying that internal images is teh reason for the long scan times. It's the worst possible format for MJ and AV since it has to scan the track to see if an image exists ... and in your case that's 34,000 of them Next Page

As far as it not bringing out the right picture type ... I think that must be an MJ bug as all I do is say to MJ "give me the picture in the file" and it extracts it to a file and I use that image as the artwork. We'll be able to confirm 100% is that's the case when I get the image extraction facility done.

Frank:

I'll have a look at the internal MP3 image processing today. Also the extractor is not there yet ... I just put a placeholder on the menu.

As far as "missing" options are concerned ... they are all there ... it's just that the majority of them have been moved to the wizard. The only difference now is that there is only external directory searching and internal images ... and internal images take precedence over external searching if enabled.

Also I agree that it's a pain having to navigate the menu to switch screens but the problem with the tab was that you cannot change the background colour of it (easily) and as such it would not work properly with the "use mj skin fonts/colours" that will be in there. If I find some nice icons relating to each screen I'll put them on a toolbar.

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #25 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:19:02 am »

Nila: Thanks for your advice, what bitrate on WMA would you suggest?
Is there a possibility to have more than 4roms/disks attached to your computer?

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #26 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:24:02 am »

Neanderthaler,

You have a couple of choices to get more than 4 cdroms/hdd's on your computer:

1) Use SCSI - can connect up to 7 or 15 connections depending on which type you get.
2) Get another PCI IDE controller card - will give you an additional 4 IDE channels
3) Get a motherboard with build in raid - will give you up to 8 IDE channels

On my development machine I have a motherboard with raid and it has a 40x CDRW, DVD, 72x CDROM and two HDD's connected to it.

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #27 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:37:28 am »

In that case I will decide for the new comp. for more disks.
I will remove the internal images and try your program again.

PS: having converted a lot of files to MP3pro is not so dramatic as you think, and if I decide to use a higher bitrate that would not be a problem since I have all files backed up on cdrs in the original 128kbs.
I just converted 1 to WMA but was really not pleased with the result which was way less than MP3pro
Of course hearing is personal, but it seems to me that WMA is losing lower tones and makes the total sound a bit too sharp.
Seeing that you work on the same time on the comp. as me Rhino you must be a European like me, correct?

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #28 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:41:53 am »

I've never liked WMA ... I decided to stick with 160kbps MP3 as it gave the best compatability/size/quality ratio for me.

And yes I'm in England and the weather is miserable Next Page

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #29 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:49:44 am »

Well here in Holland, the weather is just perfect LOL

nila · « **Reply #30 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:52:51 am »

Yeah, we really are having a totally miserable weather spell here recently.
Grey grey grey.
I keep expecting it to break and for the sun to come shooting out but it's just not happening.
Hopefully it will soon.
I'm from London Next Page

I personally use mp3's at 192kb/s just cause it's the best quality and as far as space goes I'd rather put myself out a bit and fork out for a new hard drive when and if they're needed instead of building a collection that I need to update when I'm rich and can afford some sweet speakers.

Rhino - just wondering, you said 160kb/s - does that mean your using CBR?
Cause if you are and want a space quality compromise, how come your not using VBR?
From everything I've read recently about LAME's VBR encoding pretty much everyone says it's better than CBR and if your worried about space I'd imagine it's the perfect answer.

anyway, gotta run.

Lemme know when there's a new build to try out Rhino,
cya

Nila

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #31 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:59:33 am »

Nila,

Yeah it's CBR for compatability reasons ... I have numerous DVD players, personal MP3 players, etc, and CBR is the safest bet as all my current hardware supports it. But I am paying for it now ... I have run out of space on my 20gb mp3 HDD Next Page

I will be putting another test version out today. I have got the loading times right down now ... from 1min for a 24,000 track DB to 14 seconds Next Page

nila · « **Reply #32 on:** June 08, 2002, 07:36:57 am »

Did you manage to fix my sync problem??

If your looking for another hard drive I found a great one a while back that got great reviews for speed etc and it's a huge drive.
If you want a new one then lemme know and I'll dig up which one it was.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #33 on:** June 08, 2002, 07:40:02 am »

Nila,

I have nearly finished re-writing that whole section of code. I'll post the new version later as soon as I have finished with it. It shouldn't be too long.

dave · « **Reply #34 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:40:02 pm »

I just discovered this album art thing and is cool...
My 3900 songs uploaded in less than 30 seconds.
but... my external images were not uploaded. They are all in the data/cover art directory and work in playing now mode but not album view.

this may have been stated in previous posts but some are hard for me to understand.

do i have to enter a field in the step near the end for directory, i did it with and without a directory and it never got my album covers.

thnaks for the cool program,
dave

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #35 on:** June 08, 2002, 12:58:53 pm »

Dave,

What type are your files?

By default AV looks for " - .JPG" in your MJ cover art folder.

Also you could try switching on debug and email me the trace file so I can see if I can spot what is going on. Full instructions and my email address are in the README file.

bennyd · « **Reply #36 on:** June 08, 2002, 01:33:29 pm »

Hi Rhino,

The moment I specify to have at least 2 songs in an album to view the cover art, it doesn't show the thumbnails anymore.
If I reload with 1, it works fine.

Thake care,

Benny

nila · « **Reply #37 on:** June 08, 2002, 06:23:41 pm »

I'm guessing the code re-write took you longer than expected cause you didn't post any new version for me to play with Next Page

Any idea when u'll have it done? Next Page

Just askin cause I love it so much I want it asap!

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #38 on:** June 08, 2002, 10:29:56 pm »

Nila,

I have the version here ready to go but I have hit a snag.

I switched from the MS treeview OCX to my Sheridan one for speed and now AV is refusing to load on my test machines Next Page

I am trying to figure out what ocx/dll I am missing but I am really annoyed as I wanted to start on something really cool today Next Page

nila · « **Reply #39 on:** June 09, 2002, 09:02:30 am »

Damn, I used to know a program that could tell you all the dependancies for any program but I cant remember what it was called.
That would tell you which bits you needed so you could sort it out for you and let you get on with the 'cool' thing.

Any sneak idea's about what the 'cool' thing is?

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #40 on:** June 09, 2002, 09:06:42 am »

Nila,

I already used a program called PE explorer to view the import information ... it wasn't much help.

Today I have left that problem and started work on the "cool" features ... but unfortunately that now means that there won't be a release for another day or so ... and no I'm not going to spoil the surprise Next Page

nila · « **Reply #41 on:** June 09, 2002, 11:24:13 am »

Damn,

Pity I aint got a time machine so I can rush ahead and go into the future to get a copy.

Browsin through 7000 songs is a pain in the ass tryin to find a nice album to listen to.
Browsin thru 500 albums is a LOT easier and nicer.

Ilmar · « **Reply #42 on:** June 09, 2002, 11:26:29 am »

Nila:

You have a good point!

Power to your elbow Rhino..

Ilmar

nila · « **Reply #43 on:** June 10, 2002, 02:39:27 pm »

Hey Rhino,
how's it comin?
Good I hope's the answer.
U bumped into any more problems? And did u manage to work out what ocx was missin?

Good luck,

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #44 on:** June 10, 2002, 10:48:59 pm »

Nila,

It's coming along nicely.

I've finished the 1st cool feature and I am working on the 2nd now which will take a few days but it's looking good Next Page

Also I haven't got back to the ocx thing as I am getting these features out of the way.

I will post a screenshot in the next day or so Next Page

nila · « **Reply #45 on:** June 11, 2002, 01:28:55 am »

Good good,
Cant wait to see the new features.
I have a hunch what they are though.
Dont ask me how but I'm pretty sure that the first one is an expresso feature whereby you press the button and your cdrom tray opens up and a cup appears in the tray filled with steaming hot chocolate.
The second is a donnut making feature whereby I somehow also get a donut with my hot chocolate.
Am I right or what?
U know I am Next Page

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #46 on:** June 11, 2002, 04:01:59 am »

LOL ... if that's what it was I'd make a fortune Next Page

Neanderthaler · « **Reply #47 on:** June 11, 2002, 12:43:14 pm »

OK, what did I do
I removed all images from all files
I created a database containing only artists starting with an A or B

Took 4 minutes to load
Files 5122
Artists 123
Albums 434
Thumpnails 393

Then I created a database containing only Disk D
Took 12 minutes to load
Files 16462
Artists 591
Albums 1324
Thumpnails 151

And than I load the complete collection
Back to 31 minutes!!

nila · « **Reply #48 on:** June 11, 2002, 03:25:05 pm »

Neand,
He's re-writing a lot of the code right now and speeding it up.
Wait till he's released his next version and then try it. AV is a work of art in progress.
V1 is pretty stable but v2 is purely for testing so we can help him make it.
If you want v1 it's on the plug-in page I'm pretty sure.

Also - did you still select to do internal scanning?
Cause if so it'd take just as long even if none of the files had images in them.

RhinoBanga · « **Reply #49 on:** June 12, 2002, 01:36:59 am »

Nila is right.

I am re-writing *a lot* and I have uncovered/fixed a few big bugs in the extraction stage. I'll see if I can get another test version out tonight (if I can find the ocx problem). Since my big surprises will be revealed I may as well tell you now:

1) Updated main UI to be more Office XP like (which you have already had a preview of in the last version).
2) Skin font/colour support - make AV fit in nicely with your preferred skin and the AV treeview's match the MJ treeview fonts.
3) Replaced thumbnail control with subclassed MS listview - no more height limitation and (eventually) it will only paint what is visible.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Album View v2: Another test version available (Read 7234 times)

Neanderthaler

nila

nila

Mike

nila

Neanderthaler

Neanderthaler

Neanderthaler

Neanderthaler

nila

Neanderthaler

nila

Frank

Frank

Frank

Neanderthaler

Neanderthaler

Neanderthaler

nila

nila

dave

nila

nila

nila

nila

nila

Neanderthaler

nila