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Author Topic: best MC16 machine?  (Read 3303 times)

soulcancer

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best MC16 machine?
« on: March 24, 2011, 12:32:41 pm »

I have a laptop with an external hard drive. when i want to watch movies i have to plug my laptop in to my hub and the power cable and all that jazz, annoying for me but impossible for my girlfriend, also my laptop isnt always on so gizmo isnt always avalible for me.

sooooo

im looking for the best pc to use simply as a media center. im looking for something that is very small, physically and power consumption wise. im going o be having it on the entire time just for theater view so my girlfriend and i can easily watch our movies/music/etc.

what are your guys recommendations?

something like the emachines er1402.
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 01:17:21 pm »

A bunch of people seem to be quite happy with these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158018

I'd avoid anything Atom or Neo based.  You likely won't be happy in the end.  Definitely look for an Intel Core i3 or one of the new AMD Brazos-based systems (sometimes called by different codenames, but you want the new-style AMD chips with the Fusion APU included).

For that machine, it is a barebones system, so it lacks RAM and a hard drive, so you'll need to buy those separately.  TR did a nice write-up on the new WD Scorpio Black 750GB laptop drive, which includes tests for lots of other popular laptop drives.

For memory, I'd look for whatever G-Skill or Mushkin makes that is the right type.  Don't spend a bunch extra for "fast" or "low-latency" RAM.  It won't make any difference on a machine of this class (and doesn't make much difference on even high-end workstation machines).


Actually, the Newegg listing does list a 500GB drive and 4GB of RAM, so this one isn't really barebones.  I thought the price was a bit high for something missing those features.
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 01:28:32 pm »

For less money, there is also these:

Without BluRay: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158022
With BluRay: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158021

The main difference between these and the Vision 3D version is that these don't include the auxiliary Nvidia graphics chip, and just use the on-chip Intel integrated graphics.  The H55 graphics are much improved over older Intel graphics chipsets though, so that might be plenty if you just want to use it for MC-type HTPC use (no gaming).  It should handle 1080p BluRay playback fine.  However, if you want to do TrueHD/DTS-MA passthrough to a receiver, you might want to spend the extra (it isn't clear in the specs, but I don't think the Intel H55 can do that).  EDIT: Nope, TrueHD and DTS-MA passthrough works fine with FFDSHOW.  If you care about 3D support or any kind of midrange gaming, then that's the reason to go with the higher-end 3DVision version.  Otherwise, these would be fine.

Also, the Vision 3D (the higher end version) lacks a second 2.5" hard drive slot (I guess the cooling for that Nvidia chip takes up extra space or something).  The cheaper ones have a second drive bay inside.

By the way, if you haven't heard of ASRock before, they are just a division of ASUS.  They make quality low-end and SFF stuff.

UPDATE: Here's a very nice review of the base product (these, not the Vision 3D) on AnandTech.  And here's a review of the high-end Vision 3D version.
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 01:35:27 pm »

Ahhh.... It looks like they're calling them barebones because they don't include Windows.  You'll need an OEM license for Windows 7 Home too for any of these three.

There's a thread over here where some users own these boxes and are using them with MC.
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MrHaugen

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 05:46:55 am »

Glynor mentions ASRock and various versions of this. I can't give you a better advice my self. I'm totally blown away by it's sound level, power consumption, raw power, size, 3D capabilities and so on. Read more of our impressions here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=61801.0

I bought the 3D Vision version right away, because I was curious about the 3d effect now that I have a good and big 3D TV. And it don't exactly hurt with a built in bluray drive either. The price is very reasonable, and you get a very functional and good but remote with it. Though nothing fancy. I do not think there is a better OS free Media Center alternative out there today, if you compare all the positives.
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preproman

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 10:13:17 pm »

This is a follow on to the OP's question.  What would be ideal for just music in MC 16?  One of those ASRocks - I see you can only go up to an i3 looks like.  Or a Toshiba laptop, I was looking at the Qosmio.  you can get an i5 or an i7 if need be. 
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MrHaugen

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 03:19:36 am »

Why would you need anything above I3 for a music only machine? Would whose few percentage increase in CPU/bus speed be noticeable on a HTPC? And what about the rest? Would you rather have a huge laptop, than a small 1.5 times CD cover sized quiet HTPC? This all depends on your usage of-course. But with the terms you describe, I would say No.
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soulcancer

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 05:24:48 pm »

THe machine is not going to be playing high def movies, only my backed up copies of my dvd on my hard drive. so i dont need anything flashy or an optical drive. just windows, a usb, and hdmi port.
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MrHaugen

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 04:33:42 am »

My question was to preproman. He indicated to only playback music, and still he wanted a faster and more power hungry architecture.
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csimon

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 04:38:22 am »

Anyone had any experience of the Origen M10, and what processors/boards you can put in it, and how quiet it is?

http://www.origenae.com/en/htpc_m10.htm

It looks very nice!

There is a thread about being able to control the VFD from MC...
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 03:49:46 pm »

If you're not transcoding video, playing very high-end recent games (for which you'd also need a high-end graphics card anyway), or doing other heavy number-crunching tasks (particle physics and high-end photo manipulation for example) a Core i3 will be absolutely fine, even for HD 1080p video decoding.  More info: http://techreport.com/articles.x/18216
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soulcancer

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 05:05:59 pm »

ALL this machine is going to be used for is to play what is in my library and online videos such as hulu and netflix and gizmo. everything else will be done on my laptop. so, bare bones, the cheapest smallest, lowest energy drain possible to simply PLAY and stream music and video.

That is all i want it to do.
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 07:04:30 pm »

Lowest power possible on Windows with even remotely acceptable performance would be an Atom based machine, but I'd still recommend against it.  The total system power savings are going to be very minor compared to going with a low-power Core i3, and the performance is RADICALLY worse on the in-order Atom CPUs.  For media playback support, especially stuff using Flash and Silverlight (Hulu and online video), I'd strongly recommend a Core i3 or better (a CULV Core 2 would be fine too, but the Core i3 will be better in basically every way, unless you can get an amazing deal on an outdated CULV Core 2 system).

You can pull off 1080p playback on an Atom with the right GPU component and the right drivers and the right software, but it is still quite flaky.  And if the system is busy AT ALL, you'll drop frames all over the place (and even ION hasn't been perfect in the 1080p playback department so far, especially with some web video).

Better to not have to worry about non-accelerated stuff, and just get a competent CPU.  Especially considering the very minor cost differences and relatively insignificant impact on total-system power usage of the CPU.  I'd look for a Core i3 with no secondary GPU (so more like the cheaper alternatives I posted above, than the higher-end one with the Nvidia GPU).

A very, very good alternative that might be cheaper (and maybe even a smidge lower power) would be the new AMD Fusion CPUs I mentioned above, if you can find a good pre-built nettop style system.  Most I've seen so far are laptops, unfortunately.  Those chips are still brand-spanking-new, though.  They'll be coming soon.
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soulcancer

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 07:34:31 pm »

how is the AMD Sempron II V160 (2.4GHz/0.5MB cache) chip for what im planing on doing? i can get a really good price on a machine with this chip set.
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glynor

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Re: best MC16 machine?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 08:52:57 pm »

how is the AMD SempronTM II V160 (2.4GHz/0.5MB cache) chip for what im planing on doing? i can get a really good price on a machine with this chip set.

I'd have to check that chip to be absolutely sure (and I'll try to get to it later), but I'm pretty sure that is a real, modern out-of-order CPU, so it should be fine.  Especially if the system comes with an AMD onboard GPU, which it almost certainly does.

The main problem with Atom and similar processors is that they are in-order processor designs.  They do this to drastically cut the number of transistors needed to design the processor, thereby dramatically reducing leakage current (wasted power).  Modern out-of-order CPUs require large, complex hardware on the CPUs that tries to predict future results in order to allow them to re-order the different instructions coming through into the most efficient sequence.  Those complex "branch precictors" require lots of transistors, and those transistors all leak power.  On modern process technology, leakage actually makes up more than half of the total power used by each transistor on the die, so leakage power is a big, juicy target when you're making a low-power CPU.  In-order design solves that in a way by chopping off the whole branch predictor block and forcing the software to optimize for in-order execution.

This isn't necessarily a fundamental problem, but the problem is that the x86 instruction "language" (used by essentially all Windows-based machines) in particular isn't very well suited to in-order processing (especially at high, modern clockspeeds).  If they had really designed an architecture and CPU core from the ground-up to achieve good performance without a branch predictor, an in-order chip would be fine (that's called ARM, though even they are switching to an out-of-order design with the next generation).  But Intel is essentially recycling the same fundamental core design that they used in the original Pentium processors way back in 1993 and 1994 in the Atom, and just running them at very high clockspeeds possible from their modern manufacturing capabilities.  That really holds them back.

A current generation Atom will get a little over 1/2 the performance of an identically-clocked Pentium 3 CPU in most relevant benchmarks.  So, a 1.6GHz Atom is going to "feel" like a 800-900mHz Pentium 3 CPU.  And that's just plain old for running modern software, and especially for decoding H264-compressed video, and running things written in relatively-inefficient languages like Flash, Java, .NET, and Silverlight.
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