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Author Topic: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?  (Read 3878 times)

Daydream

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What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« on: April 22, 2011, 12:33:50 am »

A500 comes out next week, 10.1", runs on Android 3.0 with Tegra2, 1GB RAM, 1280x800, 16GB flash storage and will be $450 @ Best Buy.

W500 is out now, runs on Windows 7, 10.1", 1280x800, AMD C-50 CPU, AMD 6250 GPU, 2GB DDR3, 32SSD, price range somewhere around $550, the dock will probably be another $150.

Battery time is a big divide, A500 around 8 hours (advertised), W500 4.5-5h on normal load (not playing 1080p movies all the time). But W500 can pretty much be an HTPC in itself since I recon with that AMD 6250 GPU with HDMI out it can decode everything and bitstream HD audio (remains to be proven but still).

So. What are we buying??? Or are we waiting for the Asus Eee Pad Transformer (out April 26th, $399, IPS panel)
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Scolex

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 02:18:07 am »

I am waiting for the Transformer with great anticipation. Gonna give it about a month or so after release so I can see what end users are saying.
If function is up to form it will be an awesome tablet/netbook.
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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2011, 03:54:26 pm »

The Transformer looks utterly awesome, and ASUS always makes nice hardware.  Acer, on the other hand...

I'm almost certainly going to sit it out until around this time next year, and see what the "next gen" of Android Tablets brings.  Honeycomb feels very much like the G1 to me, with a similar level of polish (meaning: very little).  But they'll rev it and fix it.  And this time next year we'll have an iPad 3 to compare it against.  I also want to see what they do with OS updates.  If it is the same as it is with their phones, it will absolutely count me out, unfortunately.

I really hope ASUS does well with the Transformer, though.  Because next year, I think I'm very, very likely to want a Transformer 2.
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glynor

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newsposter

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 05:36:26 pm »

In my mind, what is going to be most interesting will be power management with the next gen of Android tables.

Dual-core 1Gz gpus with accelerated graphics backing up sensors for gps, wifi, orientation/gforce, possible 3g/4g data, bluetooth, 8mp cameras, and all the rest adds up to a lot of milliwatts.

Now add in nice cap-touch digitizers and multi-layer displays (PixelQ-style stuff) and you've got another pile of milliwatts that need to be fed.

Some of the second-tier of no-name tablets have replace-on-the fly batteries, the mainstream or brand-name ones generally do not.
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Daydream

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 02:26:04 am »

Yesterday I checked my Best Buy, they had the Acer Iconia A500 in stock, but only a few of them, nothing for display. Asus Transformer supposedly comes out - checking time - today, also at Best Buy, but funny they couldn't tell me anything when I asked.

Iconia has the back in polished aluminum, Transformer apparently is just plastic. You can close the *ahem* "lid" with Transformer as it is docked, you can't with Iconia. There are more ports on the Iconia tablet itself then on the Transformer, but that one makes up for them with the dock. But the Iconia tablet+dock combo seems to be noticeably thicker than Transformer + dock. Man, if I could just check these out for myself, 'cause I think I watched 100 youtube clips by now.

And on the other hand is Acer W500 which is Windows, and even if battery time is significantly lower, it's... Windows, everything will run on it! This messes up my plans greatly.

Glynor, what do you think about a Win7 tablet vs Android? A zillion of apps (well not really, I bet it's not gonna run Photoshop - but it'll run Outlook!) as opposed to Android Market. I understand you wanna hold out till you can send your screen/email/video to another guy with a tablet nearby, just with a finger flick towards his general direction :), but... a Win tablet will run the MC app itself, with DirectX11, Theater View and all (unless there is some prerequisite that I overlooked).
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 10:23:14 am »

I've actually used (and still have one now) a BUNCH of Windows tablets.

They are universally terrible as general purpose tablets.  Battery life and size are major problems, but the main issue is that there are LOTS of instances where the OS itself (not to mention the aftermarket apps), even with Win7, is completely unusable on a touchscreen without a pixel-perfect pointing device and physical keyboard.

So, yes, it could RUN Outlook.  But you wouldn't want to USE Outlook on it.  Can you?  Sure, it is painful but you can pull it off.  But you'd never CHOOSE to use it instead of a laptop, because it is worse and difficult.  The same is not true of the iPad, which I'm using to type this right now.
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 11:21:22 am »

I should note... Windows tablets can be wonderful as single-purpose devices.  For example, one of the Windows tablets I have here at the office is used ONLY for MC in Theater View mode, connected to a remote library server (Tremote style).  For that, it is WONDERFUL.  I just connect a real mouse to it when I need to configure anything in the OS, and have it launch Theater View at boot.

Likewise, we have a bunch of in-house custom apps that run on Windows which were specifically designed with a capacitive-touch-only input style in mind.  They work great too.

But for a general purpose tablet?  They're awful.  Just things as simple as selecting the Address bar in the Web Browser is difficult and fiddly.  Dealing with ANYTHING in the Notification Tray (like connecting to a WiFi hotspot) is impossible.  UI design elements, and essential ones, are commonly implemented as text "links" (the Control Panels are particularly bad) which are very difficult to "hit" with a fat finger.  Another example is that, on a bunch of them I have, they are unusable with UAC turned on because when the UAC prompt comes up, the touchscreen input stops working, so you can't dismiss the dialog box without plugging in a mouse (this doesn't happen on the newer ones, but if you have one that doesn't SHIP with Windows 7, then don't expect to be able to upgrade it).  Even our Win7-specific tablet (a Lenovo, btw) there are instances where I have had to plug in a mouse because the touchscreen didn't work with some particular application (and I don't mean it wasn't convenient, I mean it actually stops accepting input in some cases).

This kind of inconsistency happens all the time.  It just isn't really usable for general purpose tablet-computing, the way I use our iPad.

And that's only one of the problems... They are also ALL have an order of magnitude worse battery life and performance.  They are, even the modern ones, like a cheap netbook with a severely underpowered battery.  I charge our iPad maybe every other day or so, even when it is being used heavily.  If our Windows tablet (which is SUBSTANTIALLY thicker and heavier than the iPad) isn't ALREADY on the charger when I go to use it, it is dead.  If you try to use it to watch a movie?  Usually it doesn't make it through one movie, much less 10+ hours like the iPad does.  Not that you'd want to because your arm would fall off from the weight...  ;)
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 03:32:11 pm »

Engadget just posted a review of the Acer:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/26/acer-iconia-tab-a500-review/

Decidedly "meh".  They recommend the ASUS instead if you're determined to get a Honeycomb tablet, though they generally recommend against any Honeycomb device right now.  The big reasons I see that I'd want the ASUS instead?  IPS display, thickness/design, weight, battery life, and cameras (though none of them are any good, really).  Oh, and the ASUS is $50 less at retail.  Of course, they're impossible to find right now...

Video recording on all of the Honeycomb tablets seems to be crap.
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Daydream

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 04:42:35 pm »

You just ruined my day. Not really :).

Thanks for the details on Windows tablets.
On the Android side, indeed it seems like Transformer is the way to go - I was also amazed how fast it vanished from stores.

Now, on 2 things:
- video recording: you said that pretty much every Honeycomb is not worthy it. As opposed to...? Is there any good option? I remember seeing a comparison video footage between Xoom, Ipad 2 and I don't remember what else and they look pretty much the same, good enough 720p (unlike the Iconia that indeed seems bad).
- am I seeing a trend here to dismiss Honeycomb and Tegra2 (in general, not us discussing here)? Honeycomb is too much still in its infancy and Tegra2 won't last; by the time anybody thinks to do any serious programming on Android 3.0 and beyond, there'll be a next gen Nvidia (ARM) chip (or Intel, or AMD, or who knows). Is that the assessment we're heading to? Or Tegra2 has enough power and versatility to make through the next significant Android version bump? Thoughts?
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 11:39:34 pm »

- video recording: you said that pretty much every Honeycomb is not worthy it. As opposed to...? Is there any good option? I remember seeing a comparison video footage between Xoom, Ipad 2 and I don't remember what else and they look pretty much the same, good enough 720p (unlike the Iconia that indeed seems bad).

Regarding video recording (I'll leave the platform discussion for tomorrow)...

They are all generally crappy with the rolling shutter and a too-small sensor to give any kind of good quality.  Calling any of them HD is really a joke.  Sure, they have the pixels, but pixel count is certainly not everything (or even the most important factor).  I'd agree that video recording on the iPad vs. Xoom is roughly equal (though in my short time with the Xoom the camera app did manage to crash twice).  But, the iPad isn't absolutely perfect in this regard (though crashes are almost always third-party apps, and essentially never take the OS itself down like was all too common with the Xoom).

However, in many cases, the Honeycomb camera implementation seems bad (which follows from what I've experienced with many Android phones, though they finally seem to be getting better in the current shipping generation).  From the AnandTech review of the ASUS:

Quote
Image quality is fine for use online but nothing spectacular. Most images captured are reasonably sharp in the foreground but not very detailed in the background. Images can look hazy depending on the lighting conditions. The front facing camera is similarly standard, comparable to the Xoom:

The camera app itself is stock Honeycomb. It takes just under 2 seconds to launch and up to 2.8 seconds to capture an image once you hit the shutter button. Occasionally (even with the latest software update available to me) the camera app will show me a green screen instead of the output from the camera sensor. Reopening the camera app always fixes the issue.

Okay, so that's not great (I just tested and the iPad 2's camera app launches in around a second every time, and then takes pictures as fast as you can hit the button), but the image quality for stills on the Xoom and the Asus are, while not good by any stretch and a far cry from what my phone can do, certainly better than the crappy video frame grab the iPad 2 manages.  And the green thing isn't great, but it is early software and should be fine with an update or two.  On the other hand... Who really cares?  How often are you going to actually use one of these things to take snapshots?  Almost never, if you have access to ANY other camera nearby.  It is good to have the capability, for app usage mostly, but I wouldn't call the still camera performance or quality a "killer feature" by any means.  It'll mostly be useful for things like snapping a shot of a handwritten note or document in Evernote, and stuff like that.

But then there's this:

Quote
ASUS has a serious issue when it comes to video recording. For some reason video recorded using the rear camera on the Eee Pad is captured at a much lower than real-time frame rate.

Go look at the video example in the review.  It seriously looks like it is generally around 10-15 frames per second, with drops even lower.  It's a joke.  This is a shipping product?

Video performance, particularly framerate reliability, is something else entirely.  You aren't going to go out and shoot a Criterion Collection masterpiece (or even a decent home movie often) on any of these.  But, the one thing I've already used my office's iPad 2 for a few times is Skype.  These tablets really make the perfect Skype video chat machines.  They're big enough that you can set them on a coffee table (or conference table) with a stand (the magnetic cover thing on the iPad works great), and still see and hear the call great, without all the complexity of setting up a webcam on a HTPC.  But then, if you want to pick it up to walk somewhere else (to show the baby's crib for example, or just to walk into the kitchen to grab a beer), you just grab it and walk, which is quite awkward with a laptop.  Image quality?  Meh... That doesn't matter that much, so long as it is "acceptable".  Better would be better, of course, but a solid framerate and lighting performance are more important than pixel count by a long-shot.  A video call on a crappy webcam that barely manages 15fps (much less 24p or 30p) is not a good experience.

Hopefully ASUS fixes it, but I suspect it might not be that easy to get right.  Among the big Honeycomb tablet reviews I've read, only the Xoom seems to have managed acceptable video framerates.  The G-Slate (or whatever they're calling that ridiculous thing), the Acer, and the Asus all seem to have fallen flat on the first go.  MANY of the existing Android phones have had similar issues that have never been fixed (like the Droid Incredible and the EVO 4G among others), so I wouldn't be so quick to chalk this one up to "it'll get fixed in software soon".

Is this stuff a huge deal?  Absolutely not, but it isn't nothing, and it does indicate a level of attention to detail.
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 12:05:23 am »

I should also add... Who knows when it will ship, and when it does it might be way too late, but I really think Windows 8 could be a Very Big Deal in the tablet space.  It won't be perfect, and there will still probably be some unpolished and non-touch-friendly stuff in there if you dig down enough, but I strongly suspect that Microsoft isn't going to take this one lying down.  Windows 8 is their play.

With a reconfigured UI for touch, a good API, and a huge library of (fiddly, but existing) applications?  Windows 8 could be amazing.  Of course, it is also going to miss not just this cycle, but probably most of the next one too.   ::)
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Daydream

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 10:54:51 pm »

OK, I had to drive 40 minutes to another town to find an Acer Iconia A500. Eee Transformer is nowhere to be seen, probably the boat didn't arrived from Taiwan because of... difficult sea navigation conditions.

For all purposes and intentions I'd like to keep it. Battery time is nowhere near as bad as rumored - I worked with it (installing stuff, web browsing, connecting things to it, copying over, etc.) for 9 hours before it dropped under 10% battery. True I only played/shot a couple of video clips during that time. Screen brightness turned way down 'cause I don't like torch mode. (maybe I'm over sensitive, so that worked in favor of battery).

Yeah, Gizmo works (why wouldn't it?) in general. Video (with transcoding) never worked for me (either on this, the Nook Color, etc) but that's a different discussion.

Let's cut to the chase: is Tegra2 able to play H264 H@L4.1, yes or no? XBMC team stopped working on porting because of that. Xoom cannot play them either. Can an Ipad/iPad2 play them?
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JimH

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 07:06:01 am »

Yeah, Gizmo works (why wouldn't it?) in general. Video (with transcoding) never worked for me (either on this, the Nook Color, etc) but that's a different discussion.
It should work with latest Gizmo and MC16.
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glynor

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Re: What Acer Iconia Tab or Eee Pad Transformer?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 10:53:31 pm »

Can an Ipad/iPad2 play them?

No.  The official specs call for "H.264 video up to 720p, 30 frames per second, Main Profile level 3.1" with a variety of different possible audio types.  However, AirVideo makes this largely irrelevant since it can convert on the fly (or queue the file for permanent conversion if you'd like, which you can then download with AirSharing or a similar app for offline viewing).
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