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[TheLion]

I just installed my full 7.1 surround system. I am using a Prism Sound Orpheus Firewire interface using ASIO.

When you play back 7.1 content there are basically 2 different channel orders out there. The one that is standard for Blu-Ray audio playback is also preserved when using madshi's very own eac3to tool to decode BD audio streams of various formats and reencode it into a flac stream. The "correct" channel order for this is: LF, RF, C, Sub, LBS, RBS, LS, RS. And that's exactly the way I plugged my speakers into the audio interface.

 The big problem is: JRiver uses another channel order: LF, RF, C, Sub, LS, RS, LBS, RBS. Which makes the playback of all my 7.1 content wrong. The point is: If I plug-in my speakers in compliance with the 7.1 channel order used by Blu-Ray content/madshi's eac3to all the true 7.1 content plays back as intended. BUT I choose JRiver excellent JRSS to upmix all my 5.1 content to 7.1 as well - and for this processing JRiver only uses its internal channel order - which results in swapped Side surround and Back Surround channels.

I would love to see selectable channel mappings in MC16 as this issue makes it impossible to get correct 7.1 playback with true 7.1 AND upmixed 5.1 content.  

[TheLion]

To describe my feature request in more detail:

- all my 7.1 flacs are being decoded to the L, R, C, SUB, RL (rear left per MC), RR, SL (side left), SR scheme. This includes commercial music flacs from 2L Audio as well as my whole Blu-Ray collection (muxed to mkv, reencoded audio tracks into flac via eac3to, madFlac as decoder). This is the accepted standard for 7.1 flacs originating from Blu-Ray audio streams (sadly the flac standard doesn't define a "correct 7.1 channel order" - both schemes are possible)

- naturally I connected my speakers to the 8 outputs of my audio interface following this channel order.

- internally MC16 only supports the alternative L, R, C, SUB, SL, SR, RL, RR scheme.

- when playing 7.1 files it doesn't matter as the channels are just routed straight to my outputs which are in the "correct" order.

- The problem occurs when MC16 does any processing like upmixing via JRSS - because it outputs the 7.1 stream following its internal channel mapping.

What I would like to recommend: Make it an option to support the L, R, C, SUB, RL, RR, SL, SR channel order for 7.1 output. In case of using JRSS for 7.1 upmixing of 5.1/6.1 content (which I warmly recommend) it should take the L, R, C, SUB, SL, SR 5.1 stream, do the upmixing and output the resulting 7.1 stream in the "correct" L, R, C, SUB, RL, RR, SL, SR channel order. Just like any native 7.1 stream is being decoded.

[Hendrik]

Wait, i'm confused.

So you're upmixing 5.1 to 7.1, basically creating data for 2 extra speakers out of thin air.
Since there was no data for those 2 extra speakers before, how do you know that its going out the wrong speaker? Its not like you can run a test sample and the audio is supposed to come out of only one specific speaker .. like you would with true 7.1

[Matt]

We always assume 7.1 input and 7.1 output follow this order:
L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR, RL, RR

Wikipedia agrees with us, citing ANSI/CEA-863-A:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound

[Matt]

But this contradicts Wikipedia:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006.aspx

If there's a definitive answer, we can switch the 7.1 ordering.  But we have to use the same ordering for input as we do for output, so I don't think a user option makes sense.

[TheLion]

Wait, i'm confused.

So you're upmixing 5.1 to 7.1, basically creating data for 2 extra speakers out of thin air.
Since there was no data for those 2 extra speakers before, how do you know that its going out the wrong speaker? Its not like you can run a test sample and the audio is supposed to come out of only one specific speaker .. like you would with true 7.1

That's a easy one ;-)

JR MC only knows one channel order for 7.1 content. It assumes all 7.1 input streams to have this channel order. And it outputs all processed/upmixed 7.1 streams in that order. To check it simply use the "Room Correction" filter to e.g. one of the back surrounds silent after JRSS does its thing - MC outputs the two back surrounds as channel numbers 7 and 8 of the 7.1 output. "Native 7.1" content "usually" use channel numbers 5 and 6 for the back surrounds, 7 and 8 for side surrounds.  

[TheLion]

But this contradicts Wikipedia:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006.aspx

If there's a definitive answer, we can switch the 7.1 ordering.  But we have to use the same ordering for input as we do for output, so I don't think a user option makes sense.

Thanks for looking into this, Matt!

Problem is - there isn't a "definitve" answer. As mentioned e.g. the flac standard doesn't specify the "correct" channel order for 7.1 streams. As you have seen there are basically two channel orders out there. It is content/decoder related which one gets applied.

In general I strongly recommend using the L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR order. This is because when e.g. ripping Blu-Rays to mkvs and transcoding the audio streams to flacs this is the channel order that gets applied. Blu-Rays are the main/only source for true 7.1 material. Ripping them to mkv/flacs is pretty much the only way to play back Blu-Rays while preserving lossless audio in MC. So if you do it correct pretty much all 7.1 content ends up being decoded in that order.

There was quite some discussion about the channel order thing in the eac3to thread over at Doom9. Basically madshi made the decision to use the L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR for 7.1 content. Audio Labels like 2L which also offer 7.1 flac content agree with that. In the studio world L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR is also common. All my 7.1 content decodes to this channel order.

Please provide the flexibility of at least choosing between these two channel orders. Sure you have to use the same ordering for in- and output. Make L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR the standard as this is how (most) 7.1 input streams decode by default.

Thanks!

[TheLion]

But this contradicts Wikipedia:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006.aspx

If there's a definitive answer, we can switch the 7.1 ordering.  But we have to use the same ordering for input as we do for output, so I don't think a user option makes sense.

All my professional audio applications and VST filters as well as my FIR "EQ" filter application (Audiolense) use the exact "master channel layout" as specified in the MSDN article above.

This is how back and side surrounds are being ordered in most cases. With JR MC being the exception that proves the rule ;-)  (Although I agree that it is counter intuitive at first sight...)

[TheLion]

Matt,

the one case when you have to take care is when MC routes 5.1 input streams (or upmixes 5.1 input streams) to 7.1. In that case the output stream has not the same order as the input (so you cannot just add the back surrounds as channels nr. 7 and 8 with upmixing). For standard 5.1 playback on a 7.1 setup you have to route the 5.1 input to output channels 1,2,3,4,7,8!

This is also very relevant for your 10+ channel modes. In summary: If you have a standard 5.1 setup there is no problem - you simply use channels 1 to 6 on any given (Asio) audio interface. If you extend that to an 7.1+ ( more channels - eg. wide, high, multiple subwoofer channels) setup the correct channel order should/must follow a given order (or be fully customizable within MC). The MSDN article cites a reference layout for that purpose.

[Matt]

Matt,

the one case when you have to take care is when MC routes 5.1 input streams (or upmixes 5.1 input streams) to 7.1. In that case the output stream has not the same order as the input (so you cannot just add the back surrounds as channels nr. 7 and 8 with upmixing). For standard 5.1 playback on a 7.1 setup you have to route the 5.1 input to output channels 1,2,3,4,7,8!

This is also very relevant for your 10+ channel modes. In summary: If you have a standard 5.1 setup there is no problem - you simply use channels 1 to 6 on any given (Asio) audio interface. If you extend that to an 7.1+ ( more channels - eg. wide, high, multiple subwoofer channels) setup the correct channel order should/must follow a given order (or be fully customizable within MC). The MSDN article cites a reference layout for that purpose.

Coming next build:
Changed: 7.1 input and output uses ordering: L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR (previously used less standard: L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR, RL, RR).

I would appreciate any testing or feedback.

Thanks.

[mojave]

This DTS-HD White Paper seems to indicate that DTS-HD uses the order L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR, RL, RR.

See Configuration 5

7.1 channels: L, C, R, LFE, Ls, Rs, Lsr, Rsr

I use Another eac3to GUI Plus to convert Blu-rays to MKV with FLAC audio, but I think the only 7.1 audio Blu-rays I have ripped/watched are "The Sound of Music" and "Toy Story 3." I didn't notice the surrounds were switched, but maybe they were.

[mojave]

Here is a Blu-ray calibration disc that would be useful for testing.

Audio Calibration Disc/HD Music Sampler

[TheLion]

Thanks for the feedback. I did some more testing and the issue is much more complicated than I thought...

There really are both mentioned channel orders for 7.1 content in the field. It is pretty though (read: almost impossible) to recognize which channel order is used with a given 7.1 stream (Side and Back Surrounds usually are very simular content wise). Therefor I used the AIX Calibration disc as reference. It contains channel identification for up to 7.1 systems (in all possible formats: PCM, Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD MA)

I ripped those sequences using my standard procedure of ripping all Blu-Ray content: Madshi's eac3to, Arcsoft 1.1.0.0 DTS decoder, libav for Dolby THD. This streams decoded to L,R,C,Sub,RL,RR,SL,SR for all the formats (madFlac in MC).
I "assumed" all my other 7.1 content would naturally decode the very same way as this reference disc. With actual content you cannot tell the channel order.

Now it comes: In addition - and to make absolutely sure - I used another calibration BD - Disney WOW. It contains DTS-HD MA channel identification sequences up to 7.1. I ripped those using the very same procedure/decoders as with the AIX disc.

AND this time those streams decoded to the L,R,C,Sub,SL,SR,RL,RR scheme... So if Matt would really change the channel mapping per se those would be output with swapped channels.

EVEN worse is when a 6.1 stream gets decoded. MC16 obviously has major issues with this format. First of all when trying to upmix the 6.1 stream with JRSS to 7.1 the programm just gives an error. When trying to decode and playback the 6.1 stream as is it decodes to an L,R,C,SL,RL,SR scheme (!).

At this point I am not sure how to proceed - I have two reference BD calibration discs and the resulting audio stream from them decodes to two different channel orders. It is a real mess...

Matt - I wouldn't change your standard channel order until we get behind all this. Perhaps Mathias (Madshi) can help us out (once again) as his eac3to is probably the most used audio ripp application out there. It seams to be content dependend which channel order the DTS decoder applies?!?

Matt - one feature I really would appreciate at this point is to make 6.1 format supported by MC. Especially the upmixing to 7.1 via JRSS is a must have feature in light of the upcoming Lord of the Rings Ex Blu-Ray release (comes with 6.1 soundtrack ;-))

[mojave]

TheLion,

How do the discs play when inserting the Blu-ray and playing back directly in MC? You can decode both DTS-HD and TrueHD using LAV Splitter and the Arcsoft filter listed in post #9 in this thread.

You also need to go to J River > Media Center 16 > Data and extract the attached Custom Resources folder with a modified FileAssociations.xml file to allow MC to recognize bdmv and mpls files.

[Alex B]

You should also test the 7.1 AAC audio samples from my "m4a input plugin" thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=63215.msg425351#msg425351. There's also a link to Microsoft's standard Wave and WMA surround test files. The 7.1 wave test file has a major compatibility problem with the reference CLI FLAC encoder.

BTW, seems like the MS 7.1 WMA test file does not play correctly. The side and and back surrounds are mixed together,

Whatever you do, just don't break the well functioning 5.1 channel mapping. Normally I don't use 7.1 even though my Yammy has 7 poweramp channels. I have a nice 5.1 speaker set with bipolar surrounds and that is enough for me. I have only a few times added an extra pair of small speakers for testing something (like the above linked 7.1 sample files).

[Matt]

I consider this Microsoft article pretty definitive as justification for the 7.1 change coming today:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006.aspx

You should also test the 7.1 AAC audio samples from my "m4a input plugin" thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=63215.msg425351#msg425351. There's also a link to Microsoft's standard Wave and WMA surround test files. The 7.1 wave test file has a major compatibility problem with the reference CLI FLAC encoder.

AAC uses a different channel ordering, but the decoder has been updated to use the 7.1 mapping indicated above.

Whatever you do, just don't break the well functioning 5.1 channel mapping. Normally I don't use 7.1 even though my Yammy has 7 poweramp channels. I have a nice 5.1 speaker set with bipolar surrounds and that is enough for me. I have only a few times added an extra pair of small speakers for testing something (like the above linked 7.1 sample files).

That's always the goal, but sometimes easier said than done.

I'm a 5.1 user at home too.  I have a 7 channel power amp, but I haven't brought myself to run the cables for the extra rear speakers.

[Matt]

Also, 6.1 support will be in the next build:
NEW: Added support for JRSS up-mixing of 6.1 content to 7.1, and downmixing of 6.1 content to any other format.

[TheLion]

Thanks for all your efforts, Matt! Looking forward to test the new beta.

These posts attempt to make sense out of it:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1443085#post1443085
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1469401#post1469401
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1462166#post1462166
...


About JRSS and 6.1: How is JRSS dealing with the single back surround - is it just duplicating it to 7.1 or is it using its upmixing algorithm on all 3 surround channels to generate the fourth? Is JRSS in general leaving the front channels completely untouched (keeping them bit-perfect) while upmixing (Stereo to multichannel, 5.1 to 7.1)?

I used Dolby PLII, DTS NEO6 and Harman Logic7 in the past for upmixing. For the past two days I have tried JRSS for my 7.1 setup - with great first impression. Would you mind sharing your design goals of JRSS? Would you say it is equally suited for movie and music content?

JRSS is a pretty unique feature that sadly doesn't get discussed much around here.

[Matt]

About JRSS and 6.1: How is JRSS dealing with the single back surround - is it just duplicating it to 7.1

It is duplicating it in an energy preserving fashion so the total volume of audio behind you will remain the same.  It's possible that including sides to get stereo definition in the rears would be useful in this case, although we have not done this for 6.1 to 7.1 for build 16.0.75.

Is JRSS in general leaving the front channels completely untouched (keeping them bit-perfect) while upmixing (Stereo to multichannel, 5.1 to 7.1)?

Yes. 

In my opinion, if we're changing a channel that's already provided (other than levels to provide a volume balanced mix), it should be a discrete (and optional) DSP and not part of JRSS.

I used Dolby PLII, DTS NEO6 and Harman Logic7 in the past for upmixing. For the past two days I have tried JRSS for my 7.1 setup - with great first impression. Would you mind sharing your design goals of JRSS? Would you say it is equally suited for movie and music content?


JRSS is a pretty unique feature that sadly doesn't get discussed much around here.

We're pretty proud of our audio engine in general, and JRSS is an important part of this.  I use JRSS for everything, including movies and music.

One thing I want from JRSS is for it to detect fake 5.1 that's only using the left and right speaker.  It should treat this fake 5.1 like stereo and mix it up to actually use the center and rears.  A lot of over-the-air PBS programs are 5.1 AC3, but don't use my center or rear speakers at all.

[TheLion]

Matt,

I have found out what is going on ;-)

Different revisions of the Arcsoft DTS decoder are to be blamed... When I was using version 1.1.0.0 for decoding the DTS MA 7.1 channel ID sequences I get the "standard DTS" channel order: L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR, RL, RR (the one MC16 was using up until now). I used/changed to 1.1.0.0 because it is the only version of the Arcsoft decoder that handles 6.1 content...don't even ask.

With the latest version, 1.1.0.8 the "correct" channel order gets applied ( L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR). This is consistent with how eac3to handles any other 7.1 stream (PCM, Dolby True HD) and it is consistent with AIX and Disney WOW reference calibration Blu-Rays.

This is great news as it makes sure that any 7.1 audio stream no matter if it is original PCM, Dolby THD or DTS HD gets decoded using the same channel mapping. Thank you very much for your quick additions to .75 - I will test it right away!

[TheLion]

Some more information directly from Madshi:

Since FLAC 5.1 uses the standard WAV channel sorting, I would suggest to do the same for 7 and 8 channels. According to my information, Microsoft currently recommends these channel masks (using the Microsoft speaker/channel constants, of course):

CODE
Number of Channels -> Channel mask
1 -> 0x4
2 -> 0x3
3 -> 0x7
4 -> 0x603
5 -> 0x607
6 -> 0x60f
7 -> 0x70f
8 -> 0x63f
There's some confusion about whether the correct channel mask for 5.1 is 0x3f or 0x60f. Many applications out there use 0x3f, but that contradicts Microsoft's latest recommendations and header files. A while ago I had asked Microsoft for clarification and got this reply:

QUOTE
I notice the white paper [1] also doesn't mention the new _5POINT1_SURROUND constant at all; and yet the constant now exists. Perhaps it was introduced after the white paper was authored. 0x60F should be correct, and 0x3f is only for backcompat.

For 6.1 I agree that 0x70F is correct although 0x13f might be grandfathered in.
The channel ordering follows the channel masks. So e.g. 7.1 has the following order: "Left, Right, Center, LFE, Back Left, Back Right, Side Left, Side Right". The channel masks listed above are those used currently by my "eac3to" tool to encode FLAC files from 1-8 channels.

Also, in order to avoid any confusion, eac3to adds a meta information field "WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK" to all FLAC files which are neither mono, nor stereo nor 5.1.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t77207.html
 

[TheLion]

Matt,

after testing the new build you deal with 7.1 streams/setups correctly now - thanks. Routing of the surround channel of 5.1 streams to the side surrounds (channels 7 and of a 7.1 setup is correct. As is the upmixing of 5.1 to 7.1 with JRSS - obviously as this is hard to check. I have to trust you there...

But the handling of 6.1 streams is not correct for 7.1 setups. Without JRSS the 6.1 streams get decoded (and mapped) within MC16 in the following order: L,R,C,Sub,Back Surround,LSS,RSS (as defined by WAVE_EXT)
But you don't remap those 7 channel streams to be correctly played on 8 channel 7.1 setups (like you do for 5.1). In the end you have to add a "dummy channel" when 6.1 streams are to be played back correctly on 7.1 setups. The correct order is L,R,C,Sub,Back Surround, Dummy, LSS, RSS

With JRSS activated this Dummy channel (channel number 6) should be filled with the processed, level matched second back surround. And we end up with the correct channel mapping for 7.1 setups.

As it is now 6.1 streams remain unusable with 7.1 setups. I hope you understand my meaning (reading my post again I am not sure I do anymore ;-)) 

[TheLion]

Matt,
I did more testing of the 7.1 upmixing of 6.1 streams with JRSS.

 What you do is you take the L,R,C,Sub,Back Surround,LSS,RSS input streams and double the RSS channel (!!, this is channel number 7 of the 6.1 stream) and map it to channel number 7 and 8 with 7.1 output. This is "double wrong" ;-) You should be aware of the before mentioned 6.1 channel order and take channel number 5 (which is the Back surround according to WAVE_Ext and actual decoder output) and apply JRSS there. Than map the two resulting back channels to channel number 5 and 6 of the 7.1 output. And the LSS and RSS (channel 6 and 7 of the input 6.1 stream) must be remapped to channel 7 and 8 of the 7.1 output now.

Please make sure you do the same procedure with 5.1 upmixing via JRSS. Take the 6 channel input stream, apply JRSS on channel 5 and 6, remap the back surrounds generated by JRSS to output channels 5 and 6, and remap the original surround channels to channels 7 and 8 of the 7.1 output stream. Everything in accordance to the WAVE_Ext standard. I "think" you already do this correctly with build 75 but it is very hard to test (I cannot tell if you map the JRSS back surrounds to channel 5 and 6 or 7 and 8 )

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! We are getting close to correct channel mapping ;-)

[mojave]

So far the testing has been done files ripped to FLAC. I'm still curious how the Arcsoft decoder (or other decoder) maps the channels when the Blu-ray is played directly from the disc drive.

[Matt]

Coming next build:
Changed: Updated the channel mask provided for 5.1 and 7.1 output to use a more modern Microsoft recommendation.
Fixed: The channel ordering used for the new 6.1 support in build 75 was not correct.

I really appreciate all the help.  Thank you.

[TheLion]

My pleasure.

[TheLion]

I found another issue, Matt.

It is about JRSS. I found that when upmixing 5.1 tracks to 7.1 JRSS takes not just the 2 surround channels and processes them in order to generate the 2 additional back surrounds. It fills the back surrounds with processed content from the front channels. Basically placing "calculated reflections" from the front channels to the back channels.

This is certainly a good approach with (some) music content and upmixed stereo TV BUT not with 5.1 discrete movie sound tracks IMHO. There "should" be an option to limit what JRSS puts in the back surrounds to real ambiance/surround content - ergo make just the surround channels the base back channel content. Therefor it should be an option to leave the front channels completely "out of the equation".

As it is now I have a lot of movies (BD sound tracks) with sequences without much going on in the surrounds. But with JRSS enabled the front channel content fills my back surrounds with signals much stronger than the 2 side surrounds. Which can be hugely disturbing as you can imagine ;-)

Please tell me what you think!

[Matt]

I found another issue, Matt.

It is about JRSS. I found that when upmixing 5.1 tracks to 7.1 JRSS takes not just the 2 surround channels and processes them in order to generate the 2 additional back surrounds. It fills the back surrounds with processed content from the front channels. Basically placing "calculated reflections" from the front channels to the back channels.

This is certainly a good approach with (some) music content and upmixed stereo TV BUT not with 5.1 discrete movie sound tracks IMHO. There "should" be an option to limit what JRSS puts in the back surrounds to real ambiance/surround content - ergo make just the surround channels the base back channel content. Therefor it should be an option to leave the front channels completely "out of the equation".

As it is now I have a lot of movies (BD sound tracks) with sequences without much going on in the surrounds. But with JRSS enabled the front channel content fills my back surrounds with signals much stronger than the 2 side surrounds. Which can be hugely disturbing as you can imagine ;-)

Please tell me what you think!

Interesting.  

Is this during music, action sequences, or dialog when it's most disturbing?  It's common for dialog to use only the center, but when the front mains are in play, normally there's also some sound in the surrounds.  

The sound stage created by the rears slightly echoing the fronts is nice, but perhaps it needs some type of gating based on the true surround level.

Thanks.

[TheLion]

It really depends on the mix/content. With action sequences surround activity is usually at its peak - therefor not a problem. Using a pro audio interface I have very nice level monitoring capability - therefor I watched the channel activity to find out how JRSS works or just how a given soundtrack is mixed. In practically all movies there are sequencies with almost no surround activity - but very active fronts (not jsut center dialog but all three of them). Many times this is on purpose - giving the focus just to the front stage.

I agree that "slightly echoing" the fronts in the rears can be nice for some content - as I wrote before it is a good way of giving stereo TV content or music a soundstage with "more depth". But when doing a 5.1 to 7.1 upmixing and there is a sequence with pratically no activity on the "real surrounds" (side surrounds) and at the same time much activity on the back surrounds provided by JRSS it changes the balance of the mix significantly.

Your idea with "some type of gating" based on true surround level is a good approach. I would probably like to see an option where one can switch off the "echoing of the fronts" completely and just the true surround content gets upmixed to 4 surround channels.

[audunth]

This explains why it sometimes sounds as if my front speakers is reflected off the back wall. Well, they probably are a little bit, but if the sound of the mains are echoed in the back surrounds, it will certainly add to the effect.

This can obviously sound great in some cases, but it's not what the sound mixer intended, so I have to agree with TheLion here, please make it an option to mix the 2 existing surrounds to 4 and leave the mains alone.

[mojave]

. . . so I have to agree with TheLion here, please make it an option to mix the 2 existing surrounds to 4 and leave the mains alone.

I also agree.

[TheLion]

The 6.1 channel routing for 7.1 setups is correct now. And more relevant than ever with LotR Extended and Star Wars coming with 6.1 audio.

With some options for disabling the front channel "echoing" JRSS would be a proper solution for all content.

[mojave]

TheLion, I sent you a PM a few days ago. Did you happen to notice it?

[audunth]

Any news on this?

[audunth]

Bump....is this being fixed or is JRSS still mixing the front channels into the back channels? If so please add an option to just use the surround channel info to create the back channels...

[Matt]

Coming in 108 and later:
Changed: Tuned JRSS 7.1 upmixing algorithm (better energy neutrality, and front mains are not used to generate the rears).
Changed: Using 'Clone side channels to rear speakers' in Output Format will copy surrounds to the rear speakers in 5.1 to 7.1 mixing.

I would recommend using JRSS.  And as always, feedback welcome.

[mojave]

I received the AIX Records Audio Calibration Disc and HD Music Sampler Blu-ray today. It has PCM, DTS-HD, and Dolby TrueHD 7.1 channel identification tests. All tested perfect using LAV Audio Decoder (using Arcsoft 1.1.0.0 dtddecoderdlll.dll for DTS-HD)! This was using WASAPI. Of course ASIO still showed the problems discussed earlier in this thread with my Creative soundcard. 5.1 is also correct.

[Matt]

Of course ASIO still showed the problems discussed earlier in this thread with my Creative soundcard.

Like I was posting on the other board a few days back, I don't think there's anything we can do to fix the 7.1 ordering for Creative ASIO cards.

A user will have to use the mixing control panel in the Creative software to properly route the audio. 

Because by default channels 7 and 8 go into outer space (like "Top Center", etc.) and the driver remixes that into all the other speakers.  It's not a simple swap that we could fix on the Media Center side.

It's possible there's some ASIO call to configure channel routing, but I've never seen it.

[mojave]

Like I was posting on the other board a few days back, I don't think there's anything we can do to fix the 7.1 ordering for Creative ASIO cards.

I thought I was posting in that thread. I had both threads open and posted in the wrong one.