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Author Topic: MC keeps losing my lyrics [Solved]  (Read 4026 times)

Moe

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MC keeps losing my lyrics [Solved]
« on: May 29, 2011, 03:49:48 pm »

Over the last few days I've been struggling with my lyrics.  They keep disappearing on me.  I'll be working on updating my lyrics and then all of a sudden stuff that I just added my lyrics to comes back saying there are no lyrics.  I can get the lyrics back (most of the time) by doing "Update Library (from tags)" but that never seems to stick.  To help me out I have made a new library field called "Backup Lyrics" and this new field hasn't given me any problems so far (that I have noticed anyway) so now when I get some lyrics imported I immediately copy them over to the Backup Lyrics field so all my work isn't totally lost.

I made a little video showing what is happening to me.  Allow me to explain what's going on in the video in case it's not clear.  I have made a smartlist that shows all my songs without lyrics.  I have this view sorted by my Backup Lyrics so the songs with backup lyrics appear at the top.  At the start of the video I have just lost a bunch of work that I had just done.  So I am copying my backup lyrics field over to my lyrics field.  I then just open up the options window and hit ok which just refreshes the smartlist so the files that I just "fixed" disappear off the list (not sure if this is the best way to do it, but it works).  So as I work you can see that at the start the songs at the top of the backup lyrics field start with symbols such as - and " etc.  As I work my way down the list at the top is A, B, C, etc.  But watch what happens when I get to the S's.  After I copy the fields and then refresh the smartlist all the files that I fixed previously return to the smartlist with no lyrics.  

Here is the video http://www.moesrealm.com/mc/lyrics.swf The video automatically loops so just be aware of that, I don't know how to turn off the auto loop.

Here is a sample mp3 of mine if you want to look at the tags http://www.moesrealm.com/mc/02-GoodToMyBaby.mp3 (right click save as)

I am currently using 16.0.87

While I do share my library with another computer, while I am doing this only the computer I am working on is running MC and it has write privileges to the library.

To acquire my lyrics I am using a combination of TagRunner and Foobar with the Lyrics Grabber plugin.

Is this a bug?  Am I doing something wrong?  Someone please help because this is driving me crazy!

Thanks

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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2011, 07:23:59 pm »

Thanks for the video.

Does the same thing happen if you edit them all at once?  Does pushing F5 to refresh have the same effect as opening options (so we can rule out something special happening because of options)?

What does the process memory usage look like once you get to the 'S' section?

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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 12:44:36 pm »

If I try and update them all at once it doesn't work.  If I try and copy the Lyrics Backup to the Lyrics field only some of them get copied.

I've made another video, here it is http://www.moesrealm.com/mc/lyrics2.swf

In this video you will see me trying to copy the Lyrics Backup to the Lyrics field.  I select all my songs that have Backup Lyrics and then attempt to copy the lyrics to the Lyrics field.  You'll notice that not everything gets copied over.  I work my way up the list attempting to copy over the lyrics that were missed in each successive attempt.  After I make way to the top I scroll back down and you'll see that a bunch of the lyrics have disappeared yet again.  I've included a bit of the task manager displaying how much process memory MC is using while I do this.  I should note that in this video I never refresh the list, no pressing F5, no opening up the options window, etc. yet things are still disappearing. 

I am at a total loss as to what could be happening here.

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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 12:51:58 pm »

Could you send a library backup to matt at jriver dot com?  Then I'll try the same test on my side.

Thanks.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 01:04:22 pm »

It's 67.7MB so I uploaded it to my server, I emailed you the link to where you can download it.
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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 03:13:59 pm »

I'll follow-up Tuesday or Wednesday after I get a chance to test it in the debugger.

Thanks.
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 03:32:44 pm »

Excellent, thanks for looking into it.
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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 12:11:04 pm »

I've been spending some time with this.  Unfortunately I can't reproduce it.

When editing fields, after enough changes, the field is flushed to disk and reloaded.  This causes maintenance to run that pools and compacts the data.

I'm wondering if something is preventing the file field (lyrics).jmd from getting written like permissions, a spotty NAS, etc.

It's also possible something is running out of memory.  I made some changes while playing with this that improves memory usage and performance when editing large numbers of files at once.  However, in your first sample video, you only edit 1000 or so at a time, which is not a very large number.

Could you make a copy of your library on a local drive at C:\Library (or similar) and see if you still have the problems with that library?

Thanks.
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 02:14:03 pm »

A bit about my setup.

I run MC on two computers.  My main desktop PC and my HTPC both of which are running Vista.  My MC library and all my media is stored on an Unraid server.  I share the library between the two computers.  I do all my importing, tagging, maintenance, etc. of my library on my main desktop PC and do the vast majority of my listening and watching on the HTPC.  I have had this setup for ~3 years and it has never given me a problem.  This problem with the lyrics didn't start happening until I upgraded to MC 16, I was previously using MC 14. 

I cloned my library to my local machine (the desktop PC) and so far everything seems to be working well.  The problem in my videos is not happening with the library being on the local machine.  I am currently getting another batch of lyrics via the foobar lyrics plugin and that should be done in a couple hours or so.  After that is done I am going to test out the local MC library again to see if it still behaves as I update the library with the newly acquired lyrics.  I'll report back after it's done to let you know if it behaves or not.

I really don't want to keep my library on the local machine though.  My server is always on so I know I can always access the library from either machine and it affords me a bit of backup if something should happen to go wrong.

Thanks again for looking into this, I hope we can figure out what is going on.





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glynor

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 03:08:51 pm »

Your best bet is probably to switch to using the Library Server system now, instead of directly connecting the HTPC to the main Library.  The Library Server system still isn't perfect, but it is VASTLY improved over older versions that you're probably used to from MC14.

You didn't mention if the Desktop PC is always-on or not, but if so, the way I'd probably handle this is:

0. Set up MC on the Desktop PC with a Library on the local disk.

1. Run MC in Library Server mode on the Desktop PC.  Set Options -> Startup -> Windows Startup -> Run on Windows startup: Media Server.  Then enable Options -> Media Network -> Use Media Network to share this library, and enable the Authentication option.  This should be enough, but you can also modify the TCP Port used if you need to under Advanced in the same section of Options.

2. Connect to this newly shared library on the HTPC using the built-in Library Client system.  This comes down to simply Adding a new Library and either entering the IP address:Port information for the Desktop PC, using the Library Server Access Key created in Step 2 above, or if you have working DNS/Static Hosts on your network using that instead.  I think MC will even actually poll your network subnet looking for servers too.  The most reliable way to do this is to make the Desktop PC have a static IP inside your network and point directly to it (this will also allow you to use port forwarding on your Router to get access to the server from outside your LAN if you want to down the road).

3. When connected to the Library Server via a Client (on the HTPC), you will have full access to the library, and CAN apply tags just like you would on the Desktop PC.  Both can be up and running and connected to the Library simultaneously without issue.  This is what has changed from old versions... The Clients attached to the Library Server do now have the ability to write tags.  This will primarily just be things like Play Count and Last Played for your purposes, but it is nice if you want to tag something quickly from the HTPC while you are sitting there (or maybe rate some files with some stars and things like that).

4. On the HTPC, go to Options -> Media Network -> Client Options and enable the Play local file if one that matches option and also enable the Automatically sync changes option (these might default-on, I'm not sure).  Please note: You MUST enable authentication for the Automatically Sync option to work correctly.

Lastly, and this may not be necessary for your needs, I want to review the things that DON'T work from a Library Server client.  Basically we're talking about anything that needs to directly access the files on the filesystem outside of MC won't work on the client.  This would include:

a. Right-Click -> Locate -> On Disk (external)
b. Right-Click -> Send To -> External/Web/etc
c. Drag-dropping files from MC's interface onto the Desktop or onto a Windows Explorer window to create a copy of the file.
d. The Album Art thumbnail in G-Force on the Client Machine.  The thumbnail is pulled directly from the file on disk, so G-Force pulls a generic thumbnail (hopefully Andy updates G-Force to use the "proper" MC command to pull the cover art from the MC library in the future).

Those are the main things, though there might be a handful of other minor-but-similar things you'd encounter.  The reason that these things don't work on the client is that if you look at the [Filename] "tag" in MC on the client machine, instead of listing the actual file path, it is a special internal URL-like locator for the file.  MC does directly access the files for playback, if it finds a matching one (hence making sure that option is ticked in step 4 above) but this is basically just for playback, and hasn't been extended to the other filesystem manipulation tools yet.  Hopefully in the future.  This system allows you to use MC out from the Internet even when you don't have access to the big file-storage drive, because if it doesn't find a local matching file, it streams the file directly from the Library Server machine (transcoding as necessary).

When you're on your LAN, and you have your UnRAID drive mounted on the Client, it just plays the files directly without transcoding.  It just isn't smart enough to do the same thing for items a-d above.  This really isn't a problem if you don't do much/any file maintenance from the HTPC at all, and you don't need functions like I described in A-C.  If you don't need those on the HTPC, then you can stop here and you'll be quite pleased with the system.

However, if you DO want access to those few functions occasionally, there is a way to work around it, if you have your Library on a "shared drive" on the server machine.  Ideally, you'd have this directly on your "media drive" since this is already mounted and accessible on both of your machines, I assume with matching disk letters.  That's what I do at home.  My "media drive" is a big RAID shared on the network and mounted everywhere as drive M, and the library lives at M:\library_data\<library_name>\ and I have the entire M drive shared out over the network and mounted on all of my computers at home on the LAN.

Unfortunately, the one big problem with those NAS devices and UnRAID boxes is that they don't provide full, unfettered access to the filesystem actually on disk to any Windows machine on the network.  Most commonly, the files themselves are stored on a Linux-type filesystem, and then something like SAMBA provides network access to these files for Windows PCs on the network.  Samba is NOT the most reliable thing on the planet, which is why Apple is supposedly abandoning the open-source SAMBA stack on the forthcoming Lion version of OSX.  It mostly works, but it has been reverse engineered and can be a little shady around the edges.  The most common problems I see at the office with our SMB shares is with write permissions and locked files, and I suspect that's what you're seeing here.  Things don't always "unlock" when they are supposed to, and sometimes this can cause data loss if you aren't careful.

So... Keeping the Library on the NAS/UnRAID is probably a bad idea.  So, what could you do if you want access to items A-C above every once in a great while (probably not D, but that may not even apply to you), but you don't want to access the library directly from the HTPC anymore most of the time?  Well, you have a simple option:

On the Desktop PC, share the folder where you saved the Library via the normal Windows network sharing system.  Since this is a "real" Windows Share, and not a "hacked" SAMBA share, it works correctly (besides, you'll be using it in Read-Only mode 99.99% of the time anyway).  Then, in addition to the Library Server method you used to add your library on the HTPC, add THIS Library DIRECTLY on the HTPC as well (call one "On Server" and the other "Direct" or something clear like that).  For the Direct mode setup, you can simply point directly to the UNC path of the share, such as \\DesktopPC\Library_Data\ or whatever.  Whenever you need to do something like A-C above, you simply go to Playing Now in the tree and switch to the "Direct Mode" library.  It will load Read-Only, because it is still open on the Server, but that's no big deal if you just need to drag a bunch of files over to a folder on your desktop for some reason, and then you'll switch right back to "normal" On Server mode.

This is what I have set up on my systems at home, and it works great.  The VAST MAJORITY of the time, I can just use the HTPC (or my Laptop) in Client mode.  Every so often though, I want to grab some files directly (usually, actually, when I'm going through Photos with my wife and picking out ones to print at Mpix.com - this is nice to do on the big HTPC screen, and then I just drag the ones we select over to a "print" folder on the HTPC's desktop).  When I need to do this, I just switch the HTPC over to "Direct Mode", acknowledge the Read-Only warning, and go about my business.  The only hard part is remembering to switch back when you're done and to not try to do any tagging while you're in the Read-Only "direct mode".  Hopefully they improve the Library Server and reduce/eliminate/work-around items A-D in the future, but that's where we are now.

Once you do this, you'll see some great advantages.  One of the best is access to the WebPlay and WebRemote functions.  This is especially cool if you have a smartphone or tablet of some kind, but it works even when you're over at a friend's house or something on their PC.  If you make sure to forward that TCP port through your firewall, you can get to all of your music and photos ANYWHERE that you have internet access with a nice, easy to use Web interface.  If you are outside your LAN (with a Laptop) and that Laptop happens to have MC installed?  You can even use MC just as though you are at home, just a little slower (and it has to transcode the files on the fly as it plays them).  Video streaming out over the Internet works too, but it is certainly a bit more "beta-quality" at this time (some file types work great, some don't).
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glynor

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2011, 03:17:34 pm »

One other benefit of using the Library Server is that MC will periodically make backups of the Library whenever it is open and running.  You can set the Location of these backups via Options -> File Location -> Program Files -> Library backups.

These backups are great.  If you are running the Library Server 24/7 on the Desktop PC, then MC is essentially always running, and you'll basically get an automatic backup of the Library every day without configuring much of anything.  Just change the backup location to point to your UnRAID share somewhere, and you'll have a RAIDed, external backup location should your C drive ever die on the Desktop PC (or something else happens to corrupt the Library data, either user-error or computer-error caused).
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 04:02:27 pm »

Glynor, while I really appreciate the very thorough and detailed response, using the library server isn't really an option for me because I don't always have my desktop PC on.  Plus, I've been running the exact setup for ~3 years and a very similar setup for for probably about 6 years (I rebuilt my server about 3 years ago went from a windows 2000 machine with a 3ware hardware RAID card to unraid) and this has never been a problem.  The problem only started when I upgraded from 14 to 16.   
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glynor

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2011, 04:16:06 pm »

because I don't always have my desktop PC on.

That would be the biggest problem, of course.

Perhaps (and hopefully) this is something on J River's end, which they will find and fix.  But, bear in mind, just because "it never happened before" doesn't necessarily mean that it is something wrong with MC.  It could certainly be a bug on "their end".  But, it could also be that some sort of an update on the UnRAID box is causing it now, or perhaps the new Library Server system required changes to the way the library is being cached and written to disk, and it is these changes that are incompatible with a SAMBA-type share (while otherwise completely valid for a "real" Windows file share).  I can say for sure that using a library stored on a network share created and hosted on a "real" Windows box, does not exhibit these types of problems.  I do that all the time with my secondary libraries.

I have not personally ever used an UnRAID box before.  I know quite a bit about them, and I've considered them before (I do have a pair of Drobos at work though), but I've never actually used one.  That said, I DO have pretty extensive experience troubleshooting SAMBA shares from Linux machines, using SMB (client-side SAMBA) to access real Windows Server shares, and experience working with heavily shared files on an Enterprise-class SAN...  I can say unequivocally that any network attached system that uses the typical open source SAMBA stack to share files with Windows PCs is quite likely to have occasional file-locking and file-permissions errors over time, especially when used in situation where multiple client machines have write privileges on the same files in the share.

With that in mind, what if you mount this share Read-Only on the HTPC?  Does the problem go away then?
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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2011, 04:23:37 pm »

From your description, it sounds like you can easily reproduce the error by copying all the lyrics at once.  I think something is going wrong when it compacts the field after you make a certain number of changes.

What does the file "field (lyrics).jmd" look like immediately after the data is lost?

Can you think of any reason we might have problems writing the file?

(p.s. you might disable tagging while you test in Options > General  Update tags when file info changes)
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 05:02:13 pm »

Glynor, I agree with everything you said, but I have not made any updates to unraid in a very long time because I figure if it's not broken why mess with it.  I just find it highly suspect that this problem started happening right after upgrading to MC 16.

Matt, yes I can easily reproduce the probem by copying all the lyrics at once but the problem also happens even when I copy the lyrics in small little chunks, like 50 songs at a time.  Everything would be going just fine and then all of a sudden all the lyrics would be lost. 

There may be a glimmer of hope here though.  I cloned my library to a local drive as you suggested and had no problems at all, I was able to update all my songs that already had lyrics with no problems.  I then got lyrics for another 1,000 songs or so and was able to update the files with no problem at all.  I then decided to clone this local library to a new folder on my server.  So far, this new library that is on the server is behaving just fine.  I got lyrics for 300-500 new songs and so far I've had no problems.

I am going to a do a large batch of files, about 1000 songs, and get the lyrics for them and see if I have any problems.  I'll report back in a few hours and let you know.

If I do run into the problem again, what do you mean by "What does the file "field (lyrics).jmd" look like immediately after the data is lost?
"?  I know what file you are referring to, I am just not sure what you want me to look for.

I can't think of any reason you'd be having a problem writing the file.

Thank you everyone for trying to help me out.
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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2011, 05:08:39 pm »

Matt, yes I can easily reproduce the probem by copying all the lyrics at once but the problem also happens even when I copy the lyrics in small little chunks, like 50 songs at a time.  Everything would be going just fine and then all of a sudden all the lyrics would be lost.

My guess is that the problem triggers after you cross the compact threshold, which requires a certain total number of changes.


Quote
If I do run into the problem again, what do you mean by "What does the file "field (lyrics).jmd" look like immediately after the data is lost?
"?  I know what file you are referring to, I am just not sure what you want me to look for.

Make a copy of the file and email it to me.  I'm wondering if it's going to be zero bytes, or something else obviously suspicious.
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glynor

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2011, 05:12:42 pm »

Glynor, I agree with everything you said, but I have not made any updates to unraid in a very long time because I figure if it's not broken why mess with it.  I just find it highly suspect that this problem started happening right after upgrading to MC 16.

I do too.  I'm just guessing here.  The main reason I chimed in on that part is because we've had SO MANY similar (and seemingly random) problems with samba shares here at the office.  It might not be related at all.

It is interesting that the clone seems to be working on the NAS for now...  ?
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glynor

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2011, 05:28:37 pm »

I can say for sure that using a library stored on a network share created and hosted on a "real" Windows box, does not exhibit these types of problems.  I do that all the time with my secondary libraries.

I should add... While I do use libraries on my network drive(s), and I do sometimes do some fairly large batch-tagging operations on them, I've never actually done anything like what you're attempting here with the Lyrics, so.... Who knows?
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Matt

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 05:51:20 pm »

I don't think it'll matter, but you might as well try 16.0.100 with your testing, since it is a little more efficient when making lots of changes like this.
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 06:50:37 pm »

Well, this is a good sign.

Using my newly cloned library that is hosted on my sever I was just able to update ~1,000 songs in one shot with no problem whatsoever.

So, as of right now anyway, it's appearing as if cloning my library to the local machine, getting things properly tagged and then cloning it back to the server seems to have fixed my problem.  I want to update a couple more thousand before I feel totally safe but things are looking good so far.  I have no idea why it's working now but I am not about to complain  :)

Matt, I am a bit reluctant to install the latest builds due to Red October.  I've got my video stuff working just fine and I don't want to mess with it or have Red October mess with it.   

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 12:02:03 pm »

Moe:

Are you using a cache drive on your unRaid system?  If so it may be you haven't given the system adequate time to update the files from the cache drive.

I am in the process of moving all my files to an unRaid server and I noticed that the files are currently on the cache drive but not on the final destination disk.

Lovin' unRaid,

Tunetyme
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2011, 12:22:21 pm »

tunetyme, I do not use a cache drive on my unraid server.  Good thinking though.

Good news.

Using my cloned library that is on my server I updated another 1,700 songs in one shot this morning and had no problems at all.  I am currently processing the last ~1,500 songs.  I have a feeling that my problem is fixed.  I don't have a clue as to why cloning the library to a local drive and then cloning it back to the server fixed the problem but it appears as if it did.
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tunetyme

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 02:06:32 pm »

Moe:

I am still setting up my unRaid (4.7) server.  Love to hear your thoughts and experiences.  Maybe we need to start a thread under hardware.  I am planning on using something other than a HTPC for connecting to my Stereo/Home theater.  I am also looking to be able to access my music at the office.

Tunetyme
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Moe

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Re: MC keeps losing my lyrics (and it's driving me insane)
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 06:31:05 pm »

Tunetyme, while I am a long time unraid user, I am really not all that knowledgeable about it.  I set it up and got it working and have done very little to it since then.  I can say that it has been pretty much rock solid for me and hasn't given me any real problems.  I can tell you that they have a very good forum of their own though and it's very active.

Back to my problem.

I think I can declare it fixed.  I have now updated all my songs, over 75,000 of them, and my lyrics problem hasn't reared its ugly head again.  I guess cloning the library a couple times did the trick. 

Thanks to all who helped!

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