Topic: Trying to Switch to MC16 as a PVR (Read 11459 times)

glynor · « **on:** June 23, 2011, 11:41:20 pm »

I'm hoping to catalog my experiences testing the switch over to MC16 for my PVR (from SageTV currently and BeyondTV before that), in the hope that it will help improve the user experience in MC with setting up the Television support. So, I'll try to stick to this thread and provide my comments and pleas for help.

From what I just experienced, I think we'll need a healthy dose of both.

EDIT: I should add. I am trying this, and documenting it, hoping to help. I'm hoping to both solve my needs and to help to improve MC for everyone. I'm not trying to just pick on MC in this at all. Basically, what he said:

Quote from: nwboater on June 23, 2011, 11:02:16 pm

PS Dear JRiver, Please don't take mention of things we like in Sage as a put down of MC. It's only to point out stuff that is very useful and that you may want to consider implementing.

I might do some quick comparisons of the process, to show what type of setup I'd expect, at some point. I don't think Sage's setup process is perfect in any way (their "Detailed Options" menus are a complete disaster and there are a bunch of weird defaults), but they do certainly seem to do the initial setup better.

glynor · « **Reply #1 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:02:12 am »

So, after a very useful conversation earlier today, I decided this evening to spend a bit and trying to run through just the initial setup for MC16's Television PVR support.

So, I opened up MC and went to the Television tree item under Drives and Devices. Looks bare-bones, and empty, but okay. So, I need to set it all up somehow. I'm not sure what I'm doing, so I clicked the TV Options button and chose Settings item. This opened the Television settings part of the Options panel. Looking good so far! MC listed all of my tuners already, though it lists the Hauppauge HVR-2250 tuners with the "wrong" name (HVR-7164). I'm guessing those are compatible with or another name for what I have, so I'm going to ignore that for now. At the top of the list is my HD-PVR, the most important recording device. Sweet, let's get started!

I selected the HD-PVR in the list, and clicked the Configure button. I get this:

Hmmm. That's not so good. No idea what to do now. I tried the configure button on the other tuner devices, and they seemed to work, but the dialogs presented didn't really give me what I wanted. I was looking for a cohesive way to set up each tuner device. These dialogs were all "settings" for the tuners themselves: ATSC vs DVB, Color balance, and post processing stuff. What I wanted is apparently not in here, anyway, but that ugly error on the HD-PVR doesn't look good.

So, I closed that dialog and went back to the TV Options button. Okay, maybe I should try to configure my Program Guide information? It is, after all, next down in the Pop-Up menu you get from that button.

(By the way, "Load Program Guide" is an odd thing to name the one-time "configuration tool" for the EPG. It sounds more like you are going to do a one-time download/overwrite of the existing Program Guide data using the word "Load". This would be better all in one place in Options -> Television.)

So, I chose Load Program Guide. Now we seem to be getting somewhere. I'd already downloaded mc2xml and stashed it away, so I chose that from the list. Looks good. Now, I'd read on the mc2xml page that, for the US, TitanTV has better ATSC listings than the legacy microsoft server. So I tried that first. I put in my zip code, pointed MC at the EXE, and mc2xml pops up it's first-time config dialog. I clicked OK since MC had already filled the relevant info. After a few seconds, gives me an unintelligible "Error: HL -y" message and then closes, after which MC reports that the XMLTV file is invalid. Sigh.

So, let's try again...

glynor · « **Reply #2 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:10:11 am »

Okay, so that didn't work. Probably something weird with TitanTV that I don't understand, but that's probably mc2xml's problem, not really MC's (this should be all built-in though). I'll try again using the default "legacy" Microsoft data source. This seems to work. I select my cable provider from the list provided, and then I got this from mc2xml's window:

Looks good. Some channels and a bunch of programs loaded. Then, a second or two later, this dialog appears in MC

Well, that's less good. I can't click next (it yells at me for not configuring the empty dialog). Can't really do anything with that. Hmmmm.... What now?

imugli · « **Reply #3 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:14:34 am »

My Experience is that you need to have channels scanned to be able to add the EPG data... It "corresponds" so to speak...

glynor · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:26:58 am »

I click cancel. I'm back at the Television section of Drives and Devices. I guess I'll hit up that TV Options button again... Maybe I need to scan for channels before I set up the guide info, in order to give the channels something to "match" against in that previous dialog. Maybe it was all blank because I hadn't scanned for channels yet? That sounds logical, but it certainly doesn't guide you through any of this, or give you any clue as to how to proceed (in fact, quite the opposite, I've been trying the choices under the TV Options button one at a time, in order).

Okay... Let's try that. I choose Scan for Channels, the third option down. I get the choice to scan for Digital, Analog, or Set-Top-Box channels. I have them all, so I check all the boxes. Click Next. But the next dialog shows only my QAM tuners (the digital ones). I don't want to do those now. Those are annoying and there is no good channel listing from Time Warner, so I have to go through manually and figure them all out by hand. No, we don't want those. Let's go back and choose just the most important tuner, the HD-PVR and the external cable box.

So, I de-select everything except the Set-Top choice and go to the next page. The data source mc2xml is already pre-selected as the "Type", so that looks good. And, success! Now the HD-PVR is in the list of Capture Devices and I can choose it. I select it. Of course, the HD-PVR doesn't use or know about channels, so I don't know what to pick for the Analog channel box, but let's check and see what's there anyway. Nothing. The box is totally empty and there is nothing in the drop down. Okay, I guess I don't need to choose a channel, but I should have to pick S-Video vs Component and the different audio connectors, but maybe it is on the next page. Click Next and:

Wow. This isn't going well. I don't know what to do now... It is talking about channels, and I'm looking for input ports. And it says I need to run a channel scan on the device first? I'm trying to run a Channel Scan. I'm in the Channel Scan wizard! What the heck is it talking about?

So, I closed it and thought about it.

Decided to write this post. While I'm writing it (in three part harmony), I have another idea...

glynor · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:39:12 am »

Maybe I need to do an Analog channel scan on the HD-PVR beforehand, so that it can "detect" the input ports, and then I can set up a Set-Top Box channel scan somehow. Okay, so I opened it back up, selected the Analog Channels choice, and clicked Next. This looks good, it lets me choose the HD-PVR and pick the type. The Type choices (Cable/Antenna) are weird, and irrelevant, but if my theory is correct, the dialog is being "reused" for something other than it's primary use, so... I pick Cable.

Hit next, and it says it is Starting the channel scan. So I came back here and finished the next piece of my post. I just returned to it (as I posted that last message). And it is still here (after probably 20 minutes):

Now, I really am stumped. Don't know what to do at all now, but I'm done for tonight.

Day One didn't go so well, but I'm not ready to quit yet!

glynor · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:42:15 am »

Quote from: imugli on June 24, 2011, 12:14:34 am

My Experience is that you need to have channels scanned to be able to add the EPG data... It "corresponds" so to speak...

Yeah, I think so too. I figured that out eventually (as you can see now, I was typing while you replied, but had already done the whole test before I started this post at all, except where noted). It really doesn't guide you through ANY of this at all, though, and the options are arrayed under the TV Options button in, essentially, an order that can lead you astray.

It NEEDS a configuration wizard that walks you through the process.

kensn · « **Reply #7 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:49:15 am »

I am going to watch this with earger anticipation being I have tried this a couple of times with about the same succes. I have a 2250 and would love to get the ease and quality of ... dare I say .. WMC. I fear if I mess up the TV PVR on WMC the wife will... Well you know...

Ken

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2011, 07:05:17 am »

This is good stuff. Thanks for keeping a record.

Unfortunately, Yaobing had routine surgery yesterday so it will be a few days at least before he will be around here.

We will definitely make some changes to make it more clear.

You don't need to do an analog scan. It's possible the device isn't showing up so we can scan it. Search here for the model. I do remember a problem with one Hauppauge device recently.

Scanning for several devices at once might cause problems.

The STB section is the least used/tested since it was added a few months ago.

glynor · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2011, 09:14:35 am »

Thanks Jim. I really hope this ends up being helpful.

I am really hoping to get it all working in MC through this process. That would be the "beautiful dream".

PS. Hope everything is okay with Yaobing. Even routine surgery is really no fun! Send him my best wishes.

nwboater · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2011, 10:07:17 am »

Quote from: glynor on June 24, 2011, 09:14:35 am

Thanks Jim. I really hope this ends up being helpful.

I am really hoping to get it all working in MC through this process. That would be the "beautiful dream".

PS. Hope everything is okay with Yaobing. Even routine surgery is really no fun! Send him my best wishes.

Thanks a whole bunch for documenting this so well. It's going to be a huge help for everyone, especially JRiver. Speaking of whom I do hope that Yaobing is doing well.

As you know I, and I'm sure many others have the same "Beautiful dream"!

It will be very interesting to see if you can successfully get this working well and still be able to go back to a functional Sage. Or perhaps even more important go back to a functional Sage while you are part way through this process. Getting MC going well on TV may take awhile and it sure would be nice to know that we can still have a good running SageTV during the process.

Thanks again Glynor for being our 'guinea pig' and thanks to MC for their renewed interest in TV.

Lots of luck!

Rod

cncb · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2011, 10:39:55 am »

A few months ago when I was testing MC's tv recording I had both Sage and MC recording tv simultaneously. This was with 2 HDHomerun devices and as long as you have tuners available for recording (not all occupied by one program) you shouldn't have any problems.

glynor · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2011, 11:18:24 am »

Quote from: nwboater on June 24, 2011, 10:07:17 am

It will be very interesting to see if you can successfully get this working well and still be able to go back to a functional Sage. Or perhaps even more important go back to a functional Sage while you are part way through this process. Getting MC going well on TV may take awhile and it sure would be nice to know that we can still have a good running SageTV during the process.

Yep. As cbcb indicated, this works fine. While I was doing those tests last night, I just shut SageTV down (I have it load as a user-app in the task tray, not as a service, which I never got running well). When I was done, I just fired Sage back up and everything is back to normal.

So long as MC isn't "scheduled" to try to use the tuners, it leaves them alone.

nwboater · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2011, 11:21:40 am »

Quote from: cncb on June 24, 2011, 10:39:55 am

A few months ago when I was testing MC's tv recording I had both Sage and MC recording tv simultaneously. This was with 2 HDHomerun devices and as long as you have tuners available for recording (not all occupied by one program) you shouldn't have any problems.

That's encouraging. In our case we only have one tuner, an HDPVR. If I understand you correctly as long as one program is not trying to record, or watch live tv, it should be available to the other program?

Rod

Edit - glnor post above came in answering this just as I was posting.

nwboater · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2011, 11:26:59 am »

Quote from: glynor on June 24, 2011, 11:18:24 am

Yep. As cbcb indicated, this works fine. While I was doing those tests last night, I just shut SageTV down (I have it load as a user-app in the task tray, not as a service, which I never got running well). When I was done, I just fired Sage back up and everything is back to normal.

So long as MC isn't "scheduled" to try to use the tuners, it leaves them alone.

In our case we have all media on a WHS machine. Sage is running as a Service on the WHS, and MC is running I guess in its 'server' mode. Wonder if that may affect anything in keeping them both available?

Rod

Yaobing · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2011, 11:18:42 am »

glynor,

Thanks for the detailed reports.

You figured out most things (like you needed to do an analog channel scan before you can scan for STB channels - very awkward indeed), but still you could not get it going

For some reason all things that could go wrong went wrong.

I could not reproduce the error message dialogs in your second post. I know where "Failed to initialize TV tuner device" message came from, and have tried to suppress it (and the suppression seems to work on my machine but not on yours

). Hauppauge HD PVR is a tuner-less device.

I am getting a hang when Configure property pages are displayed for this device. That is something I have to figure out first. This could be caused by recent threading changes in TV.

If you scan for analog channels on HD PVR device, you should have gotten three items listed quickly instead of an empty list.

glynor · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2011, 02:09:36 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on June 27, 2011, 11:18:42 am

If you scan for analog channels on HD PVR device, you should have gotten three items listed quickly instead of an empty list.

Thanks for confirming that I was on the right track.

I've actually tried this a couple of times, and never been able to get it to scan and find the inputs. I just tried it now and it actually popped up the auto-closing "HWND" error dialog as soon as I clicked next to start the scan, and still never found the inputs.

The HD-PVR is working in Sage.

One thing that MIGHT matter, though I'm not sure... My computer boots up and loads Sage in the tray. I have been closing it before I started any of these tests, to prevent any conflicts on the devices, but it has been loaded at least once after any reboot. If you think this might matter (I don't, and it shouldn't, BeyondTV could work with the HD-PVR after Sage had been loaded, even while it was still running, so it isn't like it keeps it locked or anything), I can try removing the SageTV startup from my boot process and reboot and try again.

glynor · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2011, 02:10:49 pm »

I also don't know if it matters, but I never installed all of the crap that came with the HD-PVR. Ever. I just installed the drivers, and have always used a 3rd Party application for it. So, the WinTV application or ArcSoft thing or whatever they give you isn't installed here.

I do have the drivers installed (v1.5.7.0) and I do have the IR Blaster Configuration tool installed (BlastCfg), and the WinTV scheduler tools that came with it, but no WinTV itself anywhere.

glynor · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2011, 02:37:33 pm »

I figured what the heck...

I just set Sage not to start at boot and rebooted. When it came back up, I opened MC and went directly to the Scan for Channels widget. Picked the HD-PVR, and left the rest of the dialog alone (Type set to Antenna, but I'd previously tried with this set to Cable too) and hit Next.

Immediately I got the HWND error dialog (that's what I'm going to call it from now on). I left the scan running for a full 10 minutes and it never found anything.

So, doesn't look like it has anything to do with Sage.

I've also noticed that the HWND error seems to appear any time MC tries to do anything directly with the HD-PVR. But, it only shows once. Subsequently, the error never appears, even when I go to a different place that would normally trigger it, unless I close out of MC and reopen it.

Yaobing · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2011, 03:54:06 pm »

The "the HWND error" is caused by not calling the initialization routine before calling other functions. It is strange that you are getting it all the time. This could be another threading issue.

Yaobing · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2011, 04:20:48 pm »

Quote from: glynor on June 27, 2011, 02:10:49 pm

I also don't know if it matters, but I never installed all of the crap that came with the HD-PVR. Ever. I just installed the drivers, and have always used a 3rd Party application for it. So, the WinTV application or ArcSoft thing or whatever they give you isn't installed here.

I do have the drivers installed (v1.5.7.0) and I do have the IR Blaster Configuration tool installed (BlastCfg), and the WinTV scheduler tools that came with it, but no WinTV itself anywhere.

This might have mattered.

We use "ArcSoft MPEG-2 Demultiplexer" instead of "Microsoft MPEG-2 Demultiplexer" because I was having a lot of trouble configuring the latter to work with the device.

Do you see "Failed to add MPEG2 Demux filter to graph. 0xhhhhhhhh" in log file (where 0xhhhhhhhh is a hex error code)?

Yaobing · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:29:28 am »

I can confirm that most errors you got on HD PVR device were due to lack of "ArcSoft MPEG Demultiplexer" on your system. As it is now, it is required. If I can get "Microsoft MPEG-2 Demultiplexer" to work, we can then get rid of this requirement.

If your are willing to install ArcSoft Total Media Extreme, you should be able to get it going.

I changed error messaging a little to get those error popups make more sense.

glynor · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:07:51 pm »

I can just reg that DLL file by itself, probably... Right?

If not, I'll install the whole thing.

glynor · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:29:53 pm »

BTW... SageTV does come with it's own set of decoding filters. It uses FFDSHOW or CoreAVC too, but the splitter is home-grown I suspect. BTV was the same, I believe.

Yaobing · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2011, 03:13:11 pm »

Quote from: glynor on June 28, 2011, 01:07:51 pm

I can just reg that DLL file by itself, probably... Right?

If not, I'll install the whole thing.

Probably you can just register one file - ArcDemux.ax. I do not know if it will require additional dependent files.

glynor · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2011, 06:45:13 pm »

I'll try it and then we'll know.

I won't get to it until this weekend though.

nwboater · « **Reply #26 on:** July 06, 2011, 08:10:59 am »

Quote from: glynor on June 29, 2011, 06:45:13 pm

I'll try it and then we'll know.

I won't get to it until this weekend though.

Did you get a chance to do any work on this over the weekend?

You probably know this but most of the newer versions of Arcsoft TMT3 will not allow running the decoder outside of TMT3. There are hacks available to allow it though. I can't remember now if I'm running the real old version that came with my HDPVR or if I have a newer hacked version. Let me know if you'd like me to check further.

Good Luck,
Rod

glynor · « **Reply #27 on:** July 06, 2011, 11:19:51 am »

Unfortnately, no. Friday night ended up being out because Whiskey. Since then, and through this week, I have in-laws in town, so we're on hold until next week.

glynor · « **Reply #28 on:** July 14, 2011, 10:43:15 am »

This week is my busiest week at work, involving lots of nights followed by early mornings, so this is still on hold, but not forgotten.

I know... Excuses, excuses.

nwboater · « **Reply #29 on:** July 14, 2011, 11:39:51 am »

Quote from: glynor on July 14, 2011, 10:43:15 am

This week is my busiest week at work, involving lots of nights followed by early mornings, so this is still on hold, but not forgotten.

I know... Excuses, excuses.

Priorities, priorities!

Rod

cncb · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:23:56 pm »

Well, I have tried TV in MC for a few weeks and I think I'm going to have to go back to SageTV (even though it has pretty much been abandoned) or try something else. It is too frustrating holding out hope that things will be changed or fixed in MC especially since TV seems to be at the bottom of the priority list.

imugli · « **Reply #31 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:50:18 am »

Quote from: cncb on July 25, 2011, 10:23:56 pm

Especially since TV seems to be at the bottom of the priority list.

Hopefully once all the work on filters / RO is at a certain standard, that priority could change, but I completely agree with you.

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** July 26, 2011, 06:49:02 am »

Quote from: cncb on July 25, 2011, 10:23:56 pm

Well, I have tried TV in MC for a few weeks and I think I'm going to have to go back to SageTV (even though it has pretty much been abandoned) or try something else. It is too frustrating holding out hope that things will be changed or fixed in MC especially since TV seems to be at the bottom of the priority list.

Name two wishes. Just two.

cncb · « **Reply #33 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:26:02 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 26, 2011, 06:49:02 am

Name two wishes. Just two.

Well, that's kind of the point. I have been posting things all along that mostly have been ignored (more than two).

The items preventing me from using it at this point would be:

1. keeping a specific number of episodes per series
2. the bug where TV recordings are often not being deleted from a LS client (authentication is on)
3. the behavior where all episodes in a series are put in Playing Now when selecting "Watch" in TheaterView (instead of having an additional "Watch All" option).

imugli · « **Reply #34 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:01:35 am »

1. The ability to map fields, extrapolate data and set rules on fields from XML file to DB fields in order to make Theater View manipulation easier.

I currently have to manually extrapolate the date from the filename in order to get my 'Next 7 days' schemes. I don't know if this is a result of my ignorance in putting database strings together but even if it is, it shouldn't be that hard. Also, as per the other thread, 'Series' data is missing a lot of the time.

I'd like to be able to automatically extrapolate the date fron the filename to the date field and move the name field to the series field when the series field is blank except where the keyword field contains Movie.

2. Proper place shifting.

Edit: Forgot to add thanks. Very few commercial developers would even ask.

nwboater · « **Reply #35 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:05:04 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 26, 2011, 06:49:02 am

Name two wishes. Just two.

I know that wasn't directed at me but my two wishes are:

1. Now that Audio is stellar, and apparently video almost is, that a major focus will be put on TV.

2. That developers like cncb will somehow be encouraged to not only stay with MC but to make more add-ons that will expand this great program even further.

Here's Hoping,
Rod

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:13:56 am »

Quote from: cncb on July 26, 2011, 07:26:02 am

Well, that's kind of the point. I have been posting things all along that mostly have been ignored (more than two).

We don't ever ignore requests. We just don't have the ability to implement most. It takes 10 seconds to dream up a request that may take us a week to implement.

We also don't maintain a list of what you want. We have our own list. Sometimes a user request will make it onto that list.

Our own list would take several months to implement.

I was trying to say we would consider your requests.

cncb · « **Reply #37 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:40:34 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 26, 2011, 09:13:56 am

We don't ever ignore requests. We just don't have the ability to implement most. It takes 10 seconds to dream up a request that may take us a week to implement.

We also don't maintain a list of what you want. We have our own list. Sometimes a user request will make it onto that list.

I understand but if a post is never responded to then it seems like it is not even read (is ignored). So, if a post goes unanswered can we assume that the request didn't make your list? It would just be nice to know for sure there is no way something will make it in.

By the way, I made a request during the MC15 cycle (for volume leveling during portable conversion) that Matt specifically said was put on the list but was never implemented and recent bumps/requests about it have gone unanswered. Do you throw out old items on the list?

And finally, I have reported the bug about deletion of tv recordings from a LS client several times now which seems to have gone off your radar (as far as I know). I don't know how many times to report it before finally give up. Sorry to be such an arse but it is getting frustrating.

Yaobing · « **Reply #38 on:** July 26, 2011, 08:34:58 pm »

Quote from: cncb on July 26, 2011, 07:26:02 am

1. keeping a specific number of episodes per series

Since Matt said he'd like it, you can be assured it will be implemented

Quote

2. the bug where TV recordings are often not being deleted from a LS client (authentication is on)

I have been trying, but sorry I have not figure this out yet.

Like Jim said, we are not ignoring you.

cncb · « **Reply #39 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:42:25 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on July 26, 2011, 08:34:58 pm

Since Matt said he'd like it, you can be assured it will be implemented

I have been trying, but sorry I have not figure this out yet.

Thanks.

Have you been able to reproduce the deletion problem or am I the only one experiencing it? The most recent time I tried to delete tv recordings from a client it removed the files from disk but they are still showing up in the library??

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 27, 2011, 07:26:53 am »

Quote from: cncb on July 26, 2011, 10:42:25 pm

Have you been able to reproduce the deletion problem or am I the only one experiencing it? The most recent time I tried to delete tv recordings from a client it removed the files from disk but they are still showing up in the library??

I thought I'd test this for you.

I deleted 5 TV recordings from my LS client, did a sync and then closed and re-open the client. All 5 recordings were there again in the library, but coiuld not be played as they had been removed from the drive.

And YES I have authentication ON.

Richard

eapool · « **Reply #41 on:** July 27, 2011, 07:59:48 am »

I have seen this as well. Delete files from the client - the file is removed from the drive but still shows in media center. In my case, I do not do a manual sync with the server. I have it set to automatically sync changes. I do have authentication on .

Alex

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Author Topic: Trying to Switch to MC16 as a PVR (Read 11459 times)