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[fitbrit]

There's a new thread on AVS about MC16... and there's no pussyfooting to be seen within a mile. It'd be nice to hear your views there:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20780134

[EDIT]The thread above was closed due to off-topic idiocy. The new thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1352282

[rjm]

Your comments about the need for hardware extender support intrigue me. Can you point me to a relevant thread?

[SamuriHL]

Thanks for pointing that thread out.  I would have missed it otherwise.

[Matt]

Thanks for the heads up.

And more importantly, thanks for helping us out over there.  I really appreciate it.

[JimH]

Ditto.  Thanks.

[fitbrit]

Your comments about the need for hardware extender support intrigue me. Can you point me to a relevant thread?

All I meant was that I've asked for this a few times - and I think it would be an amazing addition to MC17, for example. One of my earliest threads in late 2007/early 2008, I believe, suggested such a device. Since then, it's been brought up from time to time. Now especially, since Sage has been bought out and there are many disgruntled users looking for an alternative, it could be a good time to consider such a device.

My vision is that it would be a small device the size of a Patriot Box Office or WDTV Live. It would have a TheatreView interface by default and would be strictly for playback, and maybe setting up recordings. Perhaps limited tagging e.g. ratings and the ability to delete files if necessary... or at least mark them for attention on the back end.

[SamuriHL]

Maybe I should have stayed out of that thread.  sigh.    I don't think I've made any friends, but, I really don't get the person who refuses to buy J River MC16 because it allows the use of open source/freeware directshow filters.  I mean, um, WHAT?  Am I the only one who doesn't get their opinion??

[fitbrit]

Maybe I should have stayed out of that thread.  sigh.    I don't think I've made any friends, but, I really don't get the person who refuses to buy J River MC16 because it allows the use of open source/freeware directshow filters.  I mean, um, WHAT?  Am I the only one who doesn't get their opinion??

I'm going to clap my hands and make that weirdo's post disappear. *clap*
Go check if it's still there.

FYI, don't bother replying to that person in his many guises... the posts and the replies get deleted every time I clap.

[SamuriHL]

I'm going to clap my hands and make that weirdo's post disappear. *clap*
Go check if it's still there.

FYI, don't bother replying to that person in his many guises... the posts and the replies get deleted every time I clap.

Good.  He was starting to annoy me.  I mean, I didn't misquote the guy, repeated exactly what he said, pointed out how stupid it was, and he simply told me that I couldn't read.  Um, what?  I even offered an olive branch that ok, I don't understand his opinion (seriously, I don't), but, we're free to disagree and he had the right to have his opinion, and I still got berated for not reading.  YIKES!  There be trolls. 

[fitbrit]

Good.  He was starting to annoy me.  I mean, I didn't misquote the guy, repeated exactly what he said, pointed out how stupid it was, and he simply told me that I couldn't read.  Um, what?  I even offered an olive branch that ok, I don't understand his opinion (seriously, I don't), but, we're free to disagree and he had the right to have his opinion, and I still got berated for not reading.  YIKES!  There be trolls. 

Okay, I lied; it's not me doing the clapping, but rather an AVS moderator. I just know from experience from spending a fair amount of time responding, only to see it all disappear... and I think that's for the better!

[fitbrit]

Good.  He was starting to annoy me.  I mean, I didn't misquote the guy, repeated exactly what he said, pointed out how stupid it was, and he simply told me that I couldn't read.  Um, what?  I even offered an olive branch that ok, I don't understand his opinion (seriously, I don't), but, we're free to disagree and he had the right to have his opinion, and I still got berated for not reading.  YIKES!  There be trolls.  

I just got an email update about a response the thread... I clicked on the link in my email and I can see the intact thread, complete with your responses to Erik the Duh. My blood pressure is especially low today so I think I'll go read the exchange.

Fitbrit the Duh! The posts are all there, but on page 2. LOL!

[nwboater]

I just made a post on the AVS thread. With many of the negative types over there I think it would be helpful if more MC users chimed in. MC truly is very overlooked at AVS and that seems a shame.

Rod

[SamuriHL]

I just got an email update about a response the thread... I clicked on the link in my email and I can see the intact thread, complete with your responses to Erik the Duh. My blood pressure is especially low today so I think I'll go read the exchange.

I really made a good faith effort to make peace with him, but, he's hellbent on trolling that thread.  I don't get it at all.  Maybe he's an XBMC lover and is upset that they don't support directshow filters.    LOL!

[SamuriHL]

I just made a post on the AVS thread. With many of the negative types over there I think it would be helpful if more MC users chimed in. MC truly is very overlooked at AVS and that seems a shame.

Rod

Yea, your post was great.  I agree that AVS Forum can be....difficult at times.  If it's not a "golden child" program, then it typically gets ripped apart.  You see them picking apart the interface.  You don't see them picking apart the playback ability. With good reason.  They're just jealous. 

[fitbrit]

I really made a good faith effort to make peace with him, but, he's hellbent on trolling that thread.  I don't get it at all.  Maybe he's an XBMC lover and is upset that they don't support directshow filters.    LOL!

I believe he's an alternative login of a former member of Interact who was banned from here, and then from AVS because of his constant harassment any time MC was brought up anywhere on AVS. He had issues with MC charging for new versions while there were imperfections or incomplete implementations/bugs of existing features yet to be addressed. A shame, because other than his anti-MC obsession, he seemed like a good guy.

[SamuriHL]

I believe he's an alternative login of a former member of Interact who was banned from here, and then from AVS because of his constant harassment any time MC was brought up anywhere on AVS. He had issues with MC charging for new versions while there were imperfections or incomplete implementations/bugs of existing features yet to be addressed. A shame, because other than his anti-MC obsession, he seemed like a good guy.

Um, I'm a software engineer for a LARGE company.  So, I can tell you 100%, there is *ALWAYS* going to be bugs/imperfections in EVERY release.  ALWAYS.  So that doesn't fly with me.

[JustinChase]

I believe he's an alternative login of a former member of Interact who was banned from here, and then from AVS because of his constant harassment any time MC was brought up anywhere on AVS. He had issues with MC charging for new versions while there were imperfections or incomplete implementations/bugs of existing features yet to be addressed. A shame, because other than his anti-MC obsession, he seemed like a good guy.

HA!  I remember that whole thing.  it was 2001-02 I think.  Wow, how long to hold such a grudge!

Anyway, wow, that thread, then this one both moved pretty quickly.  I felt the need to provide my feedback on the original posters question.  I didn't get into any of the craziness with the Troll, although I basically called that guy absurd (but I doubt he'll read enough to see it ).  Anyway that took longer that I thought it would.

I came back here and saw these comments, then went back and read all of that, then came back here and read all of this, and am just kind of laughing.  I said MANY of the same things you guys said, not knowing they had already been said.  I wonder if it reads funny now

Oh well, I meant every word of it.  the good and the bad, but all with the best intentions of helping contribute to this wonderful/essential/frustrating software. 

[SamuriHL]

Believe me, I really WISH I hadn't gotten involved with the troll.  I wasn't really trying to stir up trouble, but, it just rubs me the wrong way when someone makes those stupid claims.

[JustinChase]

Yeah, i could tell.

re-reading it, he's ONLY trying to get a rise out of you, until someone gave you the "it's not worth it" save   he had nothing to actually say

all-in-all, the general sentiment of the thread seemed to be meh, with some yeah, it's got it's good points, but few REAL negatives that are actual negatives of MC, and not just uninformed or intentionally hurtful comments.

I'm a bit surprised Jim hadn't posted there.  maybe taking some time off

[SamuriHL]

The UI comments are valid, IMO.  Including your comments.    I STILL find it confusing and would like it set up slightly different.  For example, I'd like a view similar to theater mode that doesn't necessarily default to full screen until you select something to play.  Just an idea.  But, yea, the UI could use some improvements.  Library management is good.  Playback is freaking stellar at this point.

[gtgray]

I started this topic over there becaue I feel there is a huge blind spot on AVS regarding JRiver MC... JRiver is a bit insular and from a community outreach is aimed at Interact  as they have been doing their own thing for a long time.

I know I can be a bit in your face when I want something noticed so I created this thread on AVS to provoke some thinking and wake up a bunch of people who are sleepwalking over there. Clearly that is a relatively speaking humongous community and lots of potential customers for JRiver are over there. JRiver is trying to deliver things I want, and if I want those things many others do to. If you have some additional marketing success than you have developemnt resources.

Since as they say there is no bad PR...  After I had become of JRiver I was stunned at the overall lack of awareness on the big forum. Clearly my thread started a bit of buzz  

I bet today is the first day many have even heard of JRiver!

[JimH]

I started this topic over there ... Clearly my thread started a bit of buzz  

Yes and thank you!

[SamuriHL]

Yes, thank you indeed for getting that thread rolling.  J River awareness is a good thing for everyone.  The more people that are aware of J River, the more people may be tempted to use it.  And that's like crack.    I think once people really give it a try, they'll see the benefits. 

[stottle]

And that's like crack.    I think once people really give it a try, they'll see the benefits. 

I love the program, but honestly, do you really think this is true?  The program has an interface (at least to start with) that is intimidating to the 90% of the population that doesn't understand SQL.  You can customize it to do so much, but it definitely has a learning curve.  And 90% of the population doesn't have time for that.  So the 10% of us that appreciate the flexibility and capability will love it, but showing more people isn't going to get the other 90% of the population to "get" the benefits.

I hope these comments are taken in the honest form they are intended.  Like I said, I'm a user/fan, so I'm not trying to be negative.

Brett

[rick.ca]

I love the program, but honestly, do you really think this is true?

Like your rebuttal, it's clearly somewhat of an overstatement. Also like your rebuttal, it's essentially true. So? Trying to market the product to those who have no need, interest or aptitude is pointless. But even if the portion of those who may be interested is as low as 10%, that's still a huge potential market. MC has a better shot at becoming the obvious best choice for most people in that "end" of the market. That means being the unquestioned best in as many key areas as possible. There's nothing wrong with also doing what it can to be easier to use, but doing so is probably not going to do much to differentiate it in the "other end" of the market. Worse, efforts to do so that are incompatible with the things we love it for would be counter-productive. And even if it could magically have both qualities, wouldn't the other 90% still say, "That's nice, but why should I pay for something I can already do with iTunes?"

Since what I've said sounds like an argument for targeting the "high end" of the market, I should clarify—that's not what I mean. Even if MC is establishing itself as the obvious choice of video and audiophiles, they probably don't constitute a very large market—unless those terms are used rather loosely. A "true" video or audiophile is probably going to feel uneasy about paying so little for something playing such a key role in their obsession. There's a much larger market in those of us who just want the piece of mind we're getting the very best audio and video quality we can reasonably expect from our equipment and media—at a reasonable price. And those inclined to care about such things are also the type willing to make an extra effort in learning how to use the software and tailor it to their needs. There might even be a risk of making things too easy. If everything magically worked "out-of-the-box," how many of us would appreciate what we're getting?

[SamuriHL]

Don't get me wrong here.  I'm near the top of list of people saying the interface leaves.....something to be desired for the newly introduced MC user.  Myself very much included as I have NOT mastered the UI.  But, if they can get past that and get to the heart of what MC is about, I really DO think they'll see the value.  Being able to let RO set up all the filters and configure them automagically is nothing to sneeze at.  Sure, they could get some codec pack to do it for them.  However, I like the private copy, autoconfig idea and I think a majority will, as well.  They don't about that stuff.  They just want the best PQ and AQ they can get within reason.  So yea, I do believe that once people get past the UI and learn how to do basic things, they will see the value.  That said, we REALLY need to help J River work on the UI a bit. 

[jmone]

added my 2cents....

[fitbrit]

added my 2cents....

Nice one

[kensn]

Member for 4 years....  My first post on there....  Just felt compelled.

Ken

[glynor]

Don't get me wrong here.  I'm near the top of list of people saying the interface leaves.....something to be desired for the newly introduced MC user.

I think the issue is much less with the interface itself and much more about:

* Some defaults, both in the library and the settings, that don't accomplish out-of-the-box what many novice users want to accomplish without tweaking.
* Lack of educational materials and solid documentation
* The UI is designed to be metadata-driven, but the system doesn't have a simple way to automatically acquire metadata about your video files like it does for your CD rips

The third thing above feeds the first thing above to a great degree, I feel.  The default library must be designed assuming that the user has very limited metadata available about their files.  However, the power of MC only really becomes apparent once you collect and use that metadata.  Once you do though, the default library is set up poorly to actually manage and use the files.

[)p(]

For me the two most important things jr could do to get more experienced htpc users give MC a chance:
-documentation. I think lack of proper documentation is a big issue for even power users to adapt to MC. Yes there is a lot of info out there but its not well structured and incomplete. Proper documentation can enhance and extent that window of opportunity that a new user takes to make himself feel at home and in control of a program or just ditches it.
-scrapers. For htpc use people have come to expect better support for scrapers. Because one of the things MC excels in is what it can do with your metadata a more easy and much better integrated support for scapers is essential. Only then then MC can take real advantage of one of its biggest selling points.

[gtgray]

I have to agree with the almost totally missing in action scrapers. I still have trouble grasping that I have to manually go collect everything.. I guess this shows the music roots.. but for MC to be widely accepted in the HTPC community proper TV support beyond RO and scrapers are critical.

I admit to being completely mystified with the go to internet approach one finds at firs glance in the GUI. I really said to myself afer trying it WTF! Are they kidding?  A lot HTPC users will not be able to get past that to see what good is lurking inside. As an HTPC guy it was RO that got me seriously looking.

[)p(]

Somebody replied to the video I posted on the avs thread with a very negative comment. I answered him...should I instead delete his comment on the yourtube video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf1cQJ0KAHo

[Matt]

Don't feed the trolls.  It's the same user that's been banned for life here and at AVSForum.

I thought the video was awesome.  We need to figure out how integrate things like that into our website.

[CountryBumkin]

I consider myself lucky to have stumbled onto JRiver. It's a great product! But I think you are losing potential customers by not improving your Wiki and website. Mostly the Wiki, since that's where people go to see what JRiver can do. Would it be possible to repalce the standard Wiki (dictionary/definition format) with a "tree-branch" layout simailr to the way you do the Tools>Options? I think most of the info is in the Wiki but it seems clunky and hard to navigate (at least to me).

I approciate that your putting alot of effort into making the program better. If there is anything I can do to help with the Wiki, I woulg be gald to.
BTW, AVS member Greeneyes says he is going to create a users guide for MC16 (he did a good job on his "users guide for 7MC". If he does (and does a good job), perhaps it would useful to post it on the Wiki.

[)p(]

Don't feed the trolls.  It's the same user that's been banned for life here and at AVSForum.

I thought the video was awesome.  We need to figure out how integrate things like that into our website.

Wow you were not kidding he left 6 messages in no time. I disabled commenting. I dont want to get involved in a troll fight.

[rick.ca]

Don't get me wrong here.  I'm near the top of list of people saying the interface leaves.....something to be desired for the newly introduced MC user...

Without turning this into a "what's wrong with the UI" discussion, can you somehow indicate what sort of thing or quality it's lacking? You (and others) suggest there's something wrong with the UI as if it's obvious to everyone what you're referring to. I can guess what you mean, but I honestly can't think of anything about the UI that's in dire need of improvement.

I'm sure this has little to do with the fact I'm a relatively experienced user. It hasn't been so long I can't remember what it was like in the beginning. Sure it was a little intimidating. What application of this breadth and depth isn't? But I don't recall any significant impediments to getting started—with the basics. The abundance of features and capabilities actually made it quite difficult to find real impediments to whatever it was I wanted to do. For me, that makes it less intimidating, not more. I quite enjoyed exploring "new" areas and capabilities, gradually expanding my use of the program over time (and I'm still doing so). I don't think you're one of them, but many people just don't want this sort of experience. All that matters to them is something that automatically works the way they want it to work—even if they don't know what it is they want. I'm sure not everyone agrees, but I don't consider such people potential MC users. Pursuing them is pointless, and attempting to cater to them is counter-productive.

I think the issue is much less with the interface itself and much more about...The default library must be designed assuming that the user has very limited metadata available about their files.  However, the power of MC only really becomes apparent once you collect and use that metadata.  Once you do though, the default library is set up poorly to actually manage and use the files.

So maybe this is closer to what the real issue is. This reminds me of another program that would be so much better if the developer made some effort to make it more accessible to the average user—Microsoft Excel. It presents the hapless new user with a humongous empty grid. There's no hint of what data should be put in that grid, or how it should be arranged. Without any data, there's not much chance of figuring out what the program is capable of. I'm being sarcastic, of course. But there are many who respond to Excel this way. I'm not being sarcastic when I say to them, "That's okay—Excel wasn't designed for everyone, and perhaps you should avoid using it." I'm sure it's just coincidence, but it seems many of the same people are happy with iTunes...

[JustinChase]

Darn it!  I couldn't resist the troll bait!!

I ended with this...

You just choose to be a Troll. Well, Trolls live under bridges, so please go back under your bridge, and stop Trolling here.

I doubt we'll be that lucky

[JimH]

I split most of the UI discussion to a new thread here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=65701.msg440567#msg440567

Keep it coming.  Thanks.

[nwboater]

I split most of the UI discussion to a new thread here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=65701.msg440567#msg440567

Keep it coming.  Thanks.

Gosh Jim I made a comment about TV and a whole bunch of posts disappeared. Couldn't believe you were THAT upset with my post! Glad that wasn't the case.

Rod

[fitbrit]

I'm going to clap my hands and make that weirdo's post disappear. *clap*
Go check if it's still there.

FYI, don't bother replying to that person in his many guises... the posts and the replies get deleted every time I clap.

Finally I got my clapping ability back   :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20791494#post20791494

I'm sorry that so many good people wasted their time responding to the deluded. For the record I no longer believe he is the same as the other anti-MC troll. Who knew there could be more than one?

/I'm NOT the AVS moderator; I just pretend to be!

[fitbrit]

Bumping this thread, since the new AVS thread on JRiver could really use your help; there are some new users who are floundering a bit.