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[Holmestead222]

I used all version of Media Center since MC8. I would like to upgrade to MC17, but I don't want Carnac to auto update my tags. I have spent years putting in what I want for tagging. I want some fields to stay blank.

Could the Auto Tagging be made optional instead of mandatory? If not, I'm sorry to say I may have to stop upgrading at MC16.

[Matt]

Carnac doesn't make automatic changes to your library.

It will fill otherwise empty fields on fresh import (ie. a new user, not an upgrade), but only when it's pretty sure it's doing the right thing.

If you encounter a real-world issue with Carnac, please just post details and we'll work through it.  I expect issues to be rare.

[Holmestead222]

Thank you for the quick reply. I do my tagging in another program before I import my files to MC. Will your statment hold true in this situation?

[Holmestead222]

We'll, I guess I'll play it safe and stay with MC16 now. I love the software and always looked forward to MC upgrades, dissapointing. I wish Carnac could be made optional.

Thanks

[JimH]

Carnac won't change tags you have made.

It only adds tags to imported files which have no tags.

[MrHaugen]

Why not download and try it? You get a few weeks to test it out. Take some of your music or what ever, and import it. See if the tags have changed. Do the "Update library from tags" commands and see if your tags is still there. If they are, you should be safe. Should not be harder than that.

[JimH]

From the wiki topic:

"Carnac will be used to fill empty fields. It makes no changes to fields that are present in the tag -- it only fills empty fields."

[JustinChase]

I have spent years putting in what I want for tagging. I want some fields to stay blank.

That may not help the OP

[glynor]

Sounds like Paranoia to me.

Carnac doesn't just tag random fields willy-nilly.  There is a very limited subset of fields that it might auto-tag.  They will either be empty and unused (unlikely as they are fairly "core" fields) or they will already have something there.

I suspect there is a little bit of a mountain out of a molehill thing going on here.  Try it out on a few files in a test instance first.  I think it'll be fine for your use-case.

[rick.ca]

There is a very limited subset of fields that it might auto-tag.

...And in the unlikely event Carnac would update a field you prefer stay empty, it could be overridden using NEW: Tag On Import.

[glynor]

...And in the unlikely event Carnac would update a field you prefer stay empty, it could be overridden using NEW: Tag On Import.

This is actually not working for me reliably.  I suspect it has something to do with the "bad files" import stuff, but I'm not sure.  Either way, Carnac is overwriting my explicitly defined Tag On Import rules in some cases.  I'm also having trouble figuring out what runs first... Carnac or the Tag On Import settings...

As an example, in one of my libraries I'm using at the office, I have ZERO "traditional video files" in the library.  In other words, [Media Sub Type]=Other for everything in the library, and everything that will ever BE in the library.  These are all corporate videos and seminars and stuff.  No TV Shows or Movies.

Carnac is getting in the way.

Most of my new seminar recordings' file names look something like this when they're imported:
\\jaxbhflash02\wowza\content\new\lcc\20111102-1402-auditorium-360pW.mp4
\\jaxbhflash02\wowza\content\new\lcc\20111102-1402-auditorium-720pW.mp4
-or-
\\jaxbhflash02\wowza\content\new\b51\20111027-1628-jms.mp4

From this, I want to apply the following tags on import:
[Place]="lcc" -or- "b51" depending on the file path
[Media Sub Type]=Other
[Public]=0 (this is a custom field)
[Name]=The way MC16 always worked, the filename without the extension.

So, I set up rules that look like they should do that (well, I'm trying).  For example, I have a rule with Field set to Media Sub Type, and Value set to Other, and another rule with Field set to Public, and Value set to 0.  I'm not even trying to get into parsing the file path for the [Place] tag yet.

Then, I copied a bunch of new files over into the appropriate folder that all matched that type of file naming scheme.

First of all, the [Name] field is wrong for every single file that imports, and I don't have a way to fix it automatically.  For whatever reason, Carnac is parsing that file name and is importing the [Name] field like this (using those three example files):
1402-auditorium-360pW
1402-auditorium-720p
1628-Jms

So, it is trimming out the whole date field and doing something with it (I think assigning it to the [Date] field, but I'm not sure).  That's fine, but I want it to stay in the [Name] field.  Unfortunately, I can't assign this manually using a Tag On Import rule, because: There is no expression you can use to easily return a Filename without the file extension.  At least not one documented on the Wiki!

So, if I assign [Name]=[Filename (Name)] (or using the Expression Function version of the same thing), then I get [Name]=blah.mp4.  That won't work because then if I do Rename, Move, and Copy files, using the [Name] field (as is the plan after they're tagged), I end up with a file called blah.mp4.mp4.  I could, of course, use RemoveRight([Filename (Name)],4) but then what if the a file gets ingested that ends in .mpeg or some other "4 character extension" (or more)?  That won't work.

So, Carnac, which I don't need at all for ANYTHING in this particular watched folder, is just getting in the way and will NEVER be helpful.

Secondly... Every single file that will ever end up on this system will be slowly copied via FTP across the network onto that \\jaxbhflash02\ share.  They ALL end up in the bad files list.  It works as I described above if I move the files into a watched folder from another (unwatched) part of the \\jaxbhflash02\ share (so a "fast move" since it is really just renaming the file).  BUT, if I move a file in from my computer's desktop (or from one of my recorders via FTP), they import very differently.

In this case, Carnac takes over, my Tag On Import rules are ignored, and my tags get all messed up.  I get a random smattering of [Media Sub Types] (some Movie and some TV Show, probably depending on duration mostly) and the [Name] tags come in differently depending on which Media Sub Type happens to get auto-selected.

What I need to solve these problems are these three things:

1. It would be really nice to be able to disable Carnac on a folder-by-folder basis in the Import settings.  A "Use Carnac to Automatically Fill Empty Tags" checkbox, down where it has the Ignore previously removed and Ignore Special files options would be perfect.

2. An expression that will return the Filename without its extension.  I'd suggest a "mode" for the existing FileName() expression.  The default returns the full filename, but FileName(,1) returns the current file name without its extension, or something like that.  I basically need a way to fill the [Name] field the way it would have been under MC16, if Carnac DOES run and messes it up.  I've had Carnac messing up the [Name] tag on my files at home too, but I'm not even going into that right now.

3. Tag On Import rules need to work for files that temporarily end up on the "bad files" list.  The Tag on Import feature is absolutely useless for me until this is changed, because NONE of them work for the files I care about (which are all video files and are big and almost never import without ending up on that list for a little while).

[Matt]

2. An expression that will return the Filename without its extension.  I'd suggest a "mode" for the existing FileName() expression.  The default returns the full filename, but FileName(,1) returns the current file name without its extension, or something like that.  I basically need a way to fill the [Name] field the way it would have been under MC16, if Carnac DOES run and messes it up.  I've had Carnac messing up the [Name] tag on my files at home too, but I'm not even going into that right now.

Next build:
Changed: The expression function FileName(...) suppoprts an optional parameter for whether to include the extension (to get no extension: FileName(,0)).

The first parameter is the filename to analyze (it doesn't have to be the file's filename, it could be the image file, etc.).  If it's blank, it defaults to the current file.

So this is the most efficient way to get the name with no extension: FileName(, 0)

[Matt]

3. Tag On Import rules need to work for files that temporarily end up on the "bad files" list.  The Tag on Import feature is absolutely useless for me until this is changed, because NONE of them work for the files I care about (which are all video files and are big and almost never import without ending up on that list for a little while).

Next build:
Changed: Import will only mark a file as bad if it hasn't been changed on the file system for an hour (so auto-import won't put a fresh file copy in the bad database and then remove it when the copy finishes).

The bad database should only be used for files that legitimately fail to parse for some reason, to prevent the program from trying to parse them repeatedly ad nauseam.

It shouldn't be used for a simple file copy, and this change should accomplish that.

[glynor]

Awesome-sauce.

I got no Number 1, but honestly, if it works without mucking with things (or if I can reliably override it with Tag On Import settings), then I'm golden.

[rick.ca]

I got no Number 1, but honestly, if it works without mucking with things (or if I can reliably override it with Tag On Import settings), then I'm golden.

On reading your previous post, I was concerned you were reporting Carnac was overriding a rule you had set for [Name]. I take it that was not the case—you had not specified a rule for [Name] because you didn't believe there was an expression that could do so. I still wonder if it's possible to use a Carnac-set value in a Tag on Import rule—possibly for the same field. For example, can I assume Carnac will have set [Name], and set a rule to use [Name] in an expression to set [Name] to something different?

I have these questions because I haven't found the time to set up a good test for this. My main library already tags all video files automatically (using Sick Beard and PvdImport). I thought I could create a test library by Cloning the main library and then Clearing it, but Clear also resets all the views (making it difficult for me to see how my set-up would be impacted by Carnac's behaviour). I suppose I need to clone my library, delete all the files, then clear the deleted files database...

[Matt]

Tag on import rules trump tags or Carnac.

[glynor]

On reading your previous post, I was concerned you were reporting Carnac was overriding a rule you had set for [Name].

No, I'd tried it (but then I ran into the file extension problem) and it didn't work.

But the REASON it didn't work (I didn't spell this out, because I was confused at first) was because of the "bad files list".  Like I said, until the change Matt just made (which should solve that problem once and for all), basically all of my imports except for MP3 downloads from Amazon ended up on the "bad files" list for a little while.

[broncodan]

Is there a list of tags that are automatically filled? I can't imagine that it is filling all of them - lyrics, composers, etc..  This list might be helpful for those who are worried - I am in the same boat as Holmestead222.  I have put a lot of work into my existing tags and would be mad if they were changed (although it sounds like it only complete's blank tags).  A file that contains the changes/additions would also be nice to be able to review.

[Gl3nn]

A file that contains the changes/additions would also be nice to be able to review.

+1

[glynor]

To confirm:

1. It only changes completely blank tags.
2. It doesn't run "all the time".  This only happens when you import a new file, or when you manually kick it off using Fill Properties from Filename (Auto).

Basically, the worst it can do is change the standard behavior of how MC builds the [Name] tag on import, and maybe tag the files with [Media Sub Type] incorrectly.  Again, this will only happen for new files with blank fields.  If you import an already-tagged file (something tagged externally, or with another instance of MC), it will import those tags untouched.

And, if it turns out it is doing something you don't like, you can always override that behavior using the new Tag On Import rules.  So, one of the effects is that if you import a new 1 hour long video file that has a filename like this:  Breaking Bad - S04E03 - Open House.mkv

The file will come in like this:
[Media Sub Type]=TV Show
[Series]=Breaking Bad
[Season]=4
[Episode]=3
[Name]=Open House

That's pretty much perfect.  However, if for some odd reason you hate that and you want the [Name] tag to contain the original Filename on import, you simply add a Tag On Import rule for that watched folder that says:  Name: FileName(,0)

Tag On Import rules are applied after Carnac runs (so they override what Carnac did).  The FileName(,0) expression returns the source file's name minus the extension.

That's actually even better than the "old way" in MC16!  In MC16 if the file had certain pre-existing tag that MC could read (maybe inserted by your encoding application), MC would use those for the [Name] tag on import instead.  For example, I used to use AutoMKV to make a bunch of MKV files.  It tagged them all with a "created by AutoMKV version blah, blah, blah" in some embedded tag that MC16 would pick up and use as the [Name] tag.  So, if I imported 50 files made with AutoMKV, they'd all come in with identical, and useless, [Name] tags and I had to fix them using the Fill Properties from Filename tool.  Now, that wouldn't be necessary if I created a special watched "landing folder" for those files with a rule like described above.

So, I'd say play with it a bit before you make any judgements.  Again, it isn't going to just gallivant through your existing library files whacking fields here and there willy-nilly.  This only applies to new imports or to files you tell it to look at, so it should be pretty easy to get a feel for and keep under control while it is still developing.

Matt has also asked that if you have any files that Carnac DOES import incorrectly, to please post about it and they'll fix it.  There is a thread on the beta board where we've posted a few examples, and I imagine that they'll move that over to the public board once the new build goes live.

So, there really shouldn't be a reason to be concerned.  I think they certainly could give you an idea of what fields Carnac is currently "allowed" to touch, but the problem would be keeping that list up-to-date.  If, two months from now, they add a new feature to Carnac, and then someone comes back and says... But you said it was ONLY these fields!?!

But, I can give it a stab.  I haven't played with it much for Audio files.  But for video, it seems to touch at these fields primarily in the current iteration:
[Media Sub Type]
[Series]
[Season]
[Episode]
[Date]
[Name]
[Album] (this is actually the same as the longstanding behavior, but I suppose you could now call that part of Carnac)

[glynor]

PS.  Obviously the eventual point of Carnac is to enable automatic lookup in the TVDB and Rotten Tomatoes and whatnot.  Once we get Carnac to the point where it can successfully parse an adequately named file on import, you can flip a switch where MC knows how to look up the [Description] and other metadata from TVDB for the show on import.

And, that, my friends is The Dream.

[MrHaugen]

That is the dream, yes. But I think that such a system should be separated from Carnac. It should be like automatic updates, running in the background imo.

[glynor]

That is the dream, yes. But I think that such a system should be separated from Carnac. It should be like automatic updates, running in the background imo.

I think it probably will be.

Getting the essential [Series], [Season], [Episode], and [Media Sub Type] tags set first is the obviously necessary first step.  Who knows if the next step will even be in v17 or not, but I'm hoping!

[glynor]

I think a good "cute name" for that would be Icarus.  It has wings that let you get up to the Clouds.  Just don't go to far, or you might get burned. 

[struct]

I hope it is not exactly like as you describe Glynor.  I hope that there a way to verify also.  For example, I would love a fully automatic lookup based on the parsed name/year for the first run through of the couple hundred existing movies.  After that, when I am doing the one by one import, I would like to flick a switch and have some interface that lets me verify that the Notorious movie it has looked up is the one with Cary Grant and not the rapper. 

TV shows are a bit different, you want it to bias its heuristics to what you already have.  If I have episodes of Dr Who (2005) it is likely that I might be adding more of those, but I need a way to tell it that unfortunately this time the show belongs to a new show Dr Who (2009).  Remember on my first import, I may not have known that there were two versions and hence the file was named Dr Who.

All of this needs to be controllable, and I assume this is going to be through a thetvdb show id or imdb id.  This way when I think I have downloaded a copy of Dr Who (2005) and accidentally ended up with Dr Who (2009), I change one field and ask it to update. 

Craig

[glynor]

I hope it is not exactly like as you describe Glynor.  I hope that there a way to verify also.

I was talking broad strokes, not details.  For any future automatic cloud lookup system, you'd (of course) need a way to verify the info for reasons just like the ones you described.

[rick.ca]

To confirm:
1. It only changes completely blank tags.
2. It doesn't run "all the time".

Nice summary. To add a tidbit, and expand a bit on...

Tag on import rules trump tags or Carnac.

The applications might be a little obscure, but this means it's possible to use the fields the values of which have been determined by Carnac (or file attributes read from the file) in a rule that will change a particular value to something else. So if there's a need, you can do things like set [Name] to "S00 E00 [Name] • [Duration] • [Date]." Yes, that includes the ability to use [Name] in an expression that sets [Name].

I hope it is not exactly like as you describe Glynor.  I hope that there a way to verify also.  For example, I would love a fully automatic lookup based on the parsed name/year for the first run through of the couple hundred existing movies.  After that, when I am doing the one by one import, I would like to flick a switch and have some interface that lets me verify that the Notorious movie it has looked up is the one with Cary Grant and not the rapper.

Yes, this this part of the reason I believe the meta data retrieval part needs to be a separate system. It would likely still be triggered as an auto-import function (making it appear to be a fully automatic single system—in the case of new files), but there needs to be a way to run it separately. Not only will there be identification errors that need to be fixed manually (e.g., by changing a URL to point to the correct version of Notorious), but to update information that changes over time. Information normally changes frequently in the months after release. Some data changes continuously (e.g., ratings, votes, box office, etc.). I think we need a system that allows us to select and configure meta data sources, and that will run on auto-import, on a specified schedule (e.g., run this TV source daily) and on demand for selected files.

BTW, getting meta data from an external source should not be confused with Tag on Import rules. It would be awesome to be able to change data coming from an external source using an expression. This would provide a means to automatically change, format or just clean up incoming data. But that too must be configurable by source, and happen after auto-import.

TV shows are a bit different, you want it to bias its heuristics to what you already have.

In the case of Series, I hope we get something with the capability (even if not to be implemented immediately) of adding information about episodes for which there are no files (like those to be released in the next few weeks—for which there is usually data). Even without that, this is another reason why we need a separate configurable system. The easiest and most effective fix for this situation is the ability to modify the configuration of a series (in a particular source) as to the [Series] name it should be matching. In other words, things would happen automatically most of the time. But, when necessary, there's a configuration dialog standing in the middle—providing control over the mapping of [Series] to configuration data (for the retrieval of data from a particular source) and the mapping of that configuration to the source record (i.e., a reference id—should [Series] not work for any reason).