Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Must Have!

69 (62.2%)

Current Options are Fine

19 (17.1%)

No - It's Snake Oil

12 (10.8%)

I don't care but I like to vote

11 (9.9%)

Total Members Voted: 111

[jmone]

There is a bit of a debate running in the Beta Team about recent threads asking for various Audiophile options.  Let me say up front that I think many of these ideas and requests are nuts but..... IMO there is certainly an argument for those that want to minimise any processing at the PC level.  Also please keep in mind I'm not a JR'er and have no influence on what features are or are not included in MC but that said, one concept I'm plugging for is similar to the "Pure Direct" mode on some AV Equipment.  

MC already supports the best Audio engine in the PC world and Matt is a world renowned expert in this field (aka the dev of APE) and really knows his stuff... but I get the feeling that some Audiophiles may like a single button that turns on/off a "Pure Direct" mode where all possbile DSP and processing features are bypassed / disabled with the aim to provide:

"...for those that want the purest expression of the original audio as it was recorded, straight to your Receiver, DAC, or Analoge Amplifier by minimising all unnecessary processing..."

If you class yourself as an Audiophile time to speak up, is this something you want?  Even if JR added such a feature to MC are you prepared to live with limitations that comes with disabling all the features of the current MC DSP as a "Pure Direct" mode can be very uncompromising to the HW you have?

Personally, I like this idea for the odd occasion I want to sit in the sweat spot and listen to 2.0 Audio that bypasses my default 5.1 mix in the DSP (normally I like to just crank it up and wander around)

[mark_h]

My name is Mark, I am an audiophile.

I read all the guides on how best to set up MC for perfect audio, which involved a lot of settings choices.

I want no processing, no DSP, nothing, nada - just a robust stream of the original data sent to my DAC for playback.

It seems that MC already offers this, but requires a bit of effort on the part of owners to set up (reading WIKI/options choices/etc).  Would be nice if MC offered a PURE mode that simply bypasses everything and offers a 100% guaranteed clean stream free of any processing.  If nothing else it would remove confusion.

[SamuelMaki]

That would come handy... At least testing purposes...

[r_harms]

Seems like mark_h  nailed my opinion, I could not have said it better myself...

+1

Rick

[BartMan01]

The one advantage 'pure direct' modes have is a quick and easy way to switch between your preferred 'normal' processing configuration for general use and zero processing when desired for 'critical listening'.

[drmimosa]

Interesting idea, Jmone

But doesn't MC already do this with the right settings? How would the "Pure Direct" differ from using WASAPI- Event Syle, without DSP, without internal volume control?

Some hardware, FWIW, require manipulation of the data stream. For example, my DAC requires a 24-bit input, so a Pure Direct setting would of limited use with my hardware playing redbook CDs. Of course, it's just adding zeros, but my point is there isn't really a one-size-fits all way to do this.

[Matt]

I'm not opposed to this idea, but I want to make something clear.

There is not hidden audio processing in Media Center.  Media Center is effectively in "Pure Direct" mode always, unless you turn on a DSP.

DSP Studio shows a full snapshot of everything being applied.  The only other thing to think about is volume, if you use it.

I'm hoping to make DSP Studio easier to see and find in v17.

[mark_h]

There is not hidden audio processing in Media Center.  Media Center is effectively in "Pure Direct" mode always, unless you turn on a DSP.

Matt, that is understood.  But it took quite a bit of reading (on my part at least) to understand this point.  A "PURE" mode could perhaps grey out all options that alter the original data stream, and in my opinion should also lock volume at 100%

Down on the Player menu, along with DSP and Playback options have a PURE option available - selecting it turns off all DSP and locks volume.  Perhaps have a PURE checkbox in the DSP studio itself too.  No need to faff about turning off twenty options to achieve pure sound - just one selection and you're good to go.

PURE is not a great name though - what does it mean if you aren't aware of this discussion..?

[locust]

I like the idea of more options but there are definitely two type of users at least.. (Audiophiles & everybody else)

Maybe MC should have two modes, basic & advanced.

In basic all the overly complicated stuff wouldn't even show up in the options thus allowing less clutter for the users who don't really care about advanced options but at the same time still cater for audiophiles..

[mojave]

From reading various forums here are some things that I think would appeal to those wanting a Pure Direct mode (you could call it Audiophile Audio mode):

• The ability to maximum memory use for memory playback. I currently have songs that won't play with the play from memory option. However, I have plenty of memory for the song available.
• Turns off the video when playback starts and doesn't turn it back on until there is a Stop.
• Shuts down Windows processes that use the hard drive. This would turn off indexing or anything else that could cause hard drive activity.
• Makes the player display Audio only features. The tree or Theater View only display Audio and Playlists.
• JRiver won't check for updates, won't access YADB, or do anything else over the internet.
• It won't allow for Direct Sound as an output method.
• Track switching, Stop, or Seek is gapless with no cross-fading
• You could even have the JRiver Audiophile Audio window take exclusive focus and not allow switching to other programs. This helps people think that this mode is serious about only playing audio.

You could say that "JRiver offers an Audiophile Audio mode that minimizes video, disk, and internet activity to provide the highest quality of sound output. Audio output bypass the Windows mixer and takes exclusive control our your audio device."

[preproman]

From reading various forums here are some things that I think would appeal to those wanting a Pure Direct mode (you could call it Audiophile Audio mode):

• The ability to maximum memory use for memory playback. I currently have songs that won't play with the play from memory option. However, I have plenty of memory for the song available. Also, it always uses
• Turns off the video when playback starts and doesn't turn it back on until there is a Stop.
• Shuts down Windows processes that use the hard drive. This would turn off indexing or anything else that could cause hard drive activity.
• Makes the player display Audio only features. The tree or Theater View only display Audio and Playlists.
• JRiver won't check for updates, won't access YADB, or do anything else over the internet.
• It won't allow for Direct Sound as an output method.
• Track switching, Stop, or Seek is gapless with no cross-fading
• You could even have the JRiver Audiophile Audio window take exclusive focus and not allow switching to other programs. This helps people think that this mode is serious about only playing audio.

You could say that "JRiver offers an Audiophile Audio mode that minimizes video, disk, and internet activity to provide the highest quality of sound output. Audio output bypass the Windows mixer and takes exclusive control our your audio device."

+100  on that.  That would be very, very nice.

[locust]

I'm hoping to make DSP Studio easier to see and find in v17.

You can make it easier to find, you can add it to the top or bottom of MC, all you'd have to do is make this appear as default in the next build..

[DarkPenguin]

It would be nice to separate output format from the DSP stuff.  It doesn't seem obvious to me that it would be there.  (Also seems like a good candidate for a wizard and test button...  Which for all I know it has.  Can't see half of this.  The skin I'm using might be a bit dark....)

[BryanC]

No, we do not need snake-oil features to make people feel better about their audio.

[Dr Tone]

From reading various forums here are some things that I think would appeal to those wanting a Pure Direct mode (you could call it Audiophile Audio mode):

• The ability to maximum memory use for memory playback. I currently have songs that won't play with the play from memory option. However, I have plenty of memory for the song available. Also, it always uses
• Turns off the video when playback starts and doesn't turn it back on until there is a Stop.
• Shuts down Windows processes that use the hard drive. This would turn off indexing or anything else that could cause hard drive activity.
• Makes the player display Audio only features. The tree or Theater View only display Audio and Playlists.
• JRiver won't check for updates, won't access YADB, or do anything else over the internet.
• It won't allow for Direct Sound as an output method.
• Track switching, Stop, or Seek is gapless with no cross-fading
• You could even have the JRiver Audiophile Audio window take exclusive focus and not allow switching to other programs. This helps people think that this mode is serious about only playing audio.

You could say that "JRiver offers an Audiophile Audio mode that minimizes video, disk, and internet activity to provide the highest quality of sound output. Audio output bypass the Windows mixer and takes exclusive control our your audio device."

I certainly don't want MC screwing with anything on my PC.  If any person believes doing the above will help, they can setup their PC accordingly.

[pcstockton]

I certainly don't want MC screwing with anything on my PC.  If any person believes doing the above will help, they can setup their PC accordingly.

It wouldn't be a default setting/mode.  If you dont think the above will help you can not set-up MC accordingly.

[pluto]

...If any person believes doing the above will help...

I would support all this if those wanting it could state what they actually think it would change.

I performed a test similar to that cited earlier...setting up a parametric EQ containing a 75dB cut followed by 75dB gain, and switching this combo in and out via the checkbox to the left of the list of various modules. Two colleagues and I were listening on our studio monitor setup (decent big ones, not silly little "home studio" stuff). It was definitely in circuit which I proved by briefly setting the gain section to left channel only.

The difference between in and out was entirely inaudible. Unless anyone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm certain that when MC is set not to change anything, it isn't!

That said, I feel that an overall DSP in/out toggle in a position of front-panel prominence would be quite useful - I agree with an earlier poster that this ought not include the output bit-depth setting, which is more part of "playback options" than DSP, in my view.

[Dr Tone]

It wouldn't be a default setting/mode.  If you dont think the above will help you can not set-up MC accordingly.

I don't think it should be an option at all, it's just asking for trouble.  Going out of your way to manually make these type of tweaks guarantees understanding the implications and how to roll them back.  Leave MC as the player.

[contium]

I think this is a great idea. I would also like a hotkey to toggle DSP and an indicator to show current state. Maybe even hotkeys to DSP "presets".

[fitbrit]

I would support all this if those wanting it could state what they actually think it would change.

Their perception of what's coming out of the wires, through the air and into their ears?

[pcstockton]

I don't think it should be an option at all, it's just asking for trouble.  Going out of your way to manually make these type of tweaks guarantees understanding the implications and how to roll them back.  Leave MC as the player.

Most of everything that is being discussed is already an option in MC.  I think people are asking for a global setting (on/off) in which MC would ensure:
- ALL DSPs are off
- Not EQs
- Gapless playback
- Volume at 100%
- Play From Memory
etc.....

Basically, there could be an "audiophile mode" which auto corrects any of those types of settings when "on".  When "off" it would default to those settings the user has already configured in other ways.

Sure you could probably manually select every relevant setting.  But why would anyone resist a "audiophile mode", whether you think it is snake oil or not.

That would be like me opposing red october because I dont use MC for video.

-Patrick

[mojave]

I think Dr Tone is referring to my suggestion of actually shutting down some Windows processes and not settings that are already in JRiver.

[SamuelMaki]

I think Dr Tone is referring to my suggestion of actually shutting down some Windows processes and not settings that are already in JRiver.

You can use iobit game booster to do that (it's freeware)...

[mojave]

You can use iobit game booster to that (freeware)...

Fidelizer is also a nice free program for shutting down services.

I was only suggesting shutting down a service or two that might cause disk activity so that JRiver could use "no disk activity" as a feature of their Pure Direct mode. I think it is best to leave most things like that to another program.

[pluto]

I was only suggesting shutting down a service or two that might cause disk activity so that JRiver could use "no disk activity" as a feature of their Pure Direct mode

Please would somebody explain to me what that would actually achieve???

[pcstockton]

Please would somebody explain to me what that would actually achieve???

Nothing for you.  Dont worry about it.

[Blaine78]

pure direct, yes definitely. audiophile options much appreciated, for the believers...
Pure Direct mode should be separate from video playback, as 2channel audiophiles will still need JRSS downmix.
maybe if pure direct switches back automatically after watching a video, ready for listening to audio files.

Pure direct should include

No DSP
No clip protection
No volume
Bypass internal 64bit floating point
Basically removing everything in the path between decoded data straight to the hardware.
The only thing that will be needed, the ability to still select the outputs wordlength (i.e.) 24bit, as a lot of USB audio devices only work with 24bit.

[DarkPenguin]

Please would somebody explain to me what that would actually achieve???

On my vastly underpowered netbook turning off things like auto updates and MSE tends to take care of any unwanted skipping.  And, yeah, I get that even with an async usb dac and my buffer set to 3 weeks.  On my desktop I could be batch processing a thousand raw files in lightroom and it wouldn't skip.

[jmone]

The only thing that will be needed, the ability to still select the outputs wordlength (i.e.) 24bit, as a lot of USB audio devices only work with 24bit.

So you want an option where 16 Bit source is just padded to 24 Bit for compatibility reasons (eg no conversion is done).

[John57]

I know that hard drive activity can cause spikes or noise in the lines on some PC or laptops. I heave heard this on other PC forums that they hear d click or a very short burst of noise in the audio usually on the analog outputs but sometimes the digital signal will hiccup a bit.

[Blaine78]

So you want an option where 16 Bit source is just padded to 24 Bit for compatibility reasons (eg no conversion is done).

yes, in DSP/Output Format/Bit Depth, this is still needed to be selectable, as a lot of USB dac, when data is streamed by wasapi, wasapi event or ks, need a 24bit stream to work.

[mojave]

Please would somebody explain to me what that would actually achieve???

I used to have a noisy drive that irritated me to no end when listening to music. Some might think it would also eliminate the need for this device. Finally, Onkyo's Pure Direct mode shuts off circuits not need in the receiver for audio playback. I'm just suggesting giving the JRiver user a similar type option. Whether it has an affect on the sound quality would be put in the hands/ears of the listener.

[jmone]

AFAIK, the current MC DSP options actually converts say a 16-bit stream to 24-bit etc so there is data carried by all 24-Bits.  Another approach that does not require any conversion is to just PAD the 16 bit stream out to 24-bit so such a method does not convert the data at all, it keeps the first 16-bits identical then just pads it out with blanks to 24-bit.

[maliceme]

Seems like mark_h  nailed my opinion, I could not have said it better myself...

+1

Rick

++1

[glynor]

I'm hoping to make DSP Studio easier to see and find in v17.

If nothing else, I think THIS is a good idea.

I'm okay with the Pure Direct mode too.  One little thing, though... jmone, I know that the option on your Yamaha "inspired" you for this concept.  Just to check, is theirs called Pure Direct (TM)?  Because if so, we need a different name.  I'm looking at my Yammie, but I don't think I have that feature.  I'm not really willing to mess with it much though, because it is currently working perfectly, and having to get the book out would make glynor sad.

Does give us a good target for a clever name though.  

[jmone]

Yup - I only used the "Pure Direct" moniker as that is how it was referred to in by last two Yami receivers I had more than what it should (or should not) be called in MC.  Anyway, in checking their "trademarks" page in the manual it lists many things but not the term "Pure Direct".  The term I think is also used by other mfr like Denon.

Edit:  Pure Direct is hard to miss on the Yami models I have had as there is a dedicated button on the Front of the Receiver and also the RC for it.

[pluto]

I used to have a noisy drive that irritated me to no end when listening to music

It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of modern drives "exercise" periodically even without any data access being made by the host system.

[CountryBumkin]

Yup - I only used the "Pure Direct" moniker as that is how it was referred to in by last two Yami receivers I had more than what it should (or should not) be called in MC.  Anyway, in checking their "trademarks" page in the manual it lists many things but not the term "Pure Direct".  The term I think is also used by other mfr like Denon.

Edit:  Pure Direct is hard to miss on the Yami models I have had as there is a dedicated button on the Front of the Receiver and also the RC for it.

Onkyo calls it "Pure Audio". I'm sure everyonr has their own name for it. May be use can use "Direct Audio".

[preproman]

Yup - I only used the "Pure Direct" moniker as that is how it was referred to in by last two Yami receivers I had more than what it should (or should not) be called in MC.  Anyway, in checking their "trademarks" page in the manual it lists many things but not the term "Pure Direct".  The term I think is also used by other mfr like Denon.

Edit:  Pure Direct is hard to miss on the Yami models I have had as there is a dedicated button on the Front of the Receiver and also the RC for it.

They don't have a trade mark on that name.  I have a Marantz, they also use the Pure Direct name.  There's other names that refer to this as well ie.  "HOG MODE" or "Audio Device exclusive access mode" these names are used by other players to do the same thing we are talking about.  If the audio can go straight to the DAC without being touched or messed with in anyway - that would be great.  I think a HOG MODE or Direct Mode would be great for the Audiophiles.  

[pcstockton]

The only thing that will be needed, the ability to still select the outputs wordlength (i.e.) 24bit, as a lot of USB audio devices only work with 24bit.

You have mentioned this a few times now.  What DACs wont accept standard old red book files?  I dont know of any USB DAC with hires support only.  What DACs are you talking about?

-patrick

[jgreen]

AFAICT, what's actually at issue here is a UI button to quickly switch between settings for flat playback of music audio, versus settings that would likely be more DSP-enhanced for movie audio. 

IMO, to suggest that MC needs a new audio "mode" confuses the issue, at best.  A quick search of audiophile websites reviewing MC will support the purity of MC's audio playback, when so configured.  I too would like to see a button to goose any DSP settings back to flat on demand; a second press of the same button would restore the settings to previous state.

[Bill S]

I voted 'no', but after closer reading of the thread I see that what is being asked for is a 'shortcut' to set existing options which would be fine.  However rather than making this specific for just one group of users, such as 'audiophiles', I suggest there be a way for users to save/name the settings and have this saved configuration accessible without having to go into settings.  This would provide functionality for more than just audiophiles.  

For instance, for one of my computers it would be nice to have a shortcut/toggle to quickly switch from my normal 4 speaker mode to having audio downmixed to 2 channels and audio output only from the back speakers - so for this I would create and save my 'normal' configuration and another for just the back 2 channels, then I could invoke one or the other as needed without going into options/settings. 'Audiophiles' could create/save setting configurations with the values suggested in this thread and then be able to switch as needed.

[jmone]

Bill, good point.

Matt has spent a ton of effort to introduce many of the DSP functions we take for granted on receivers and integrate them into MC on the PC.  These receivers however let users define and toggle between not only a "Pure Direct" mode but also between DSP Presets.  Imagine in MC if you could define multiple DSP Presets (plus a "Pure Direct") then:
- Manually switch between them (including with your with your RC in Theater view)
- Assign different DSP Presets by Media/Sub Media Type (eg Audio = Pure Direct, Video = DSP1, TV = DSP2 etc)
- even potentially assign different DSP Presets by track (eg like you can with Auto EQ already)
 

[fitbrit]

Does give us a good target for a clever name though.  

The Oh-dear-file setting?

[fitbrit]

Bill, good point.

Matt has spent a ton of effort to introduce many of the DSP functions we take for granted on receivers and integrate them into MC on the PC.  These receivers however let users define and toggle between not only a "Pure Direct" mode but also between DSP Presets.  Imagine in MC if you could define multiple DSP Presets (plus a "Pure Direct") then:
- Manually switch between them (including with your with your RC in Theater view)
- Assign different DSP Presets by Media/Sub Media Type (eg Audio = Pure Direct, Video = DSP1, TV = DSP2 etc)
- even potentially assign different DSP Presets by track (eg like you can with Auto EQ already)
 

I was just about to post something like this! My Yamaha receiver had four preset 'scenes' that you could predefine and quickly toggle betwee. It would be awesome for everyone if we could do something similar - audiophiles could turn on a 24 Carat pure mode, and others could choose various modes of JRSS, virtual subwoofer etc. etc. It would need to be selectable in OSD mode, even though 24 Carat mode might turn off video once selected (which we have to be careful about since that could screw up some HDMI receivers with their handshake).

[r_harms]

I currently accomplish most of this using two zones (switchable with my Harmony One remote).

One mode sets DSP Studio for the setting appropriate for multichannel listening such as sample rates and a channel format my DAC can accept.

My other mode turns off everything in DSP Studio for two channel listening.

They both use my HDMI output but could use different outputs (or even different DAC's if desired).

One cool thing about doing it this way is that both zones have a play list associated with it, so when I choose my 'Multi-Channel HDMI' zone it loads my high-res multichannel music. When I select my 'Stereo HDMI' zone it disables all processing in DSP Studio and loads my  two channel play list.

Like others have mentioned, Media Center can already accomplish most things being requested.

I still feel a single button 'mode' could be useful for simple access to a feature audiophiles new to MC could just push, and play...

Rick

[jmone]

As Rick and others have pointed out, most of this is there it is just packaging and the use of the logic in Zones to hold DSP presets is a good idea.

Out of interest how did you assign the change zone commands to the Harmony One?

[kensn]

Out of interest how did you assign the change zone commands to the Harmony One?

In MC you can learn the command. Just use an unused button on the remote .. like one of the colored ones..

Ken

[audunth]

Having MC manipulate stuff in the operating system is a bad, BAD idea. A bug in MC could then give you a BSOD or even screw up the operating system to the point of having to reinstall it all. BAD idea!

I don't really see the point of a pure direct mode when you can just set up a pure direct zone. An audiophile who is a moron when it comes to fiddling with and tweaking settings to get the best sound quality would never ever use a computer to play audio in the first place or would have someone setup and tweak the computer for him/her.

It would be nice to separate output format from the DSP stuff.

No, it wouldn't. It needs to be there so you can choose whether to apply the processing in Output format before or after the other DSP filters/options.

[DarkPenguin]

Having MC manipulate stuff in the operating system is a bad, BAD idea. A bug in MC could then give you a BSOD or even screw up the operating system to the point of having to reinstall it all. BAD idea!

I don't really see the point of a pure direct mode when you can just set up a pure direct zone. An audiophile who is a moron when it comes to fiddling with and tweaking settings to get the best sound quality would never ever use a computer to play audio in the first place or would have someone setup and tweak the computer for him/her.

No, it wouldn't. It needs to be there so you can choose whether to apply the processing in Output format before or after the other DSP filters/options.

They could throw away the rest of the DSP for all I care.