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[nsblues]

Hello,

I've just discovered Expressions and am starting to learn how to use them. What I find frustrating is there doesn't seem to be a central thread of what everybody is using or recommends (or I can't find them in my forum searches though I've tried about 4 different search strings).

Or, if I've missed the thread, could someone please post a link to it.

Thanks 

Cyprian

[MrC]

There really are limitless ways of using and combining expressions.  Here's a reference:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_expression_language

Folks ask about help in trying to accomplish something, and sometimes it involves creating some expressions to solve the problem.

There are additional posts in the wiki and in the forums here to help.

[nsblues]

Thanks for providing the link to the wiki page. What I was wondering is there are probably many different approaches and maybe having a thread where everyone posts the expressions that they use. Then someone new to expressions can have a resource instead of re-inventing the wheel. Though, I like the idea that if I run into trouble I can post asking for help. So that's good too! 

[MrC]

There are thousands of expressions scattered throughout posts here, and many in the Wiki pages.

I think most folks have found that asking questions, trial and error, and searching for relevant topics to be the most effective.

[locust]

I've got an idea J River could publish

J river MC for dummies..

I'd bet a few people would buy it... & it would put some more money in J Rivers coffers ensuring that the company lives on that way nobody will be paranoid about not having a registration key that lasts indefinitely, with J River being closed whilst being stuck on a desert island

[marko]

Then someone new to expressions can have a resource instead of re-inventing the wheel.

Funny you should use that expression (no pun intended ).... From waay back in 2003.... Why reinvent the wheel

It didn't really take off back then, and the reasons for that are still valid today... We have such joyous free reign over how we build our libraries that expressions and smartlists invariably revolve around, or involve in some way, shape or form, custom library fields added by the user for a specific reason suited for them.

The expressions or smartlists created are brilliant and just work, but to post them, then explain their use, along with the reason behind any given number of custom fields involved, is just tiresome, and for the most part, pointless, as the given string won't really be of any use to anyone else.

Expressions and smartlists can be fun. It's not popular, but really, the best way to learn is, if you have a goal you want to achieve with your library, and think it can be achieved via expressions or smartlists, just ask...

You will normally be answered extremely quickly, and if you then take the time to understand why a given answer works, you will begin to grasp the possibilities open to you, and before you know it, you'll be joining the fun of working out the solutions to other users expression / smartlist questions.

I've just read this back to myself, and I use "You" a lot... I'm talking to anyone who thinks an expression might help them get to where they want, but is afraid to ask!!
There haven't been many "smartlist help" questions asked of late... we must have done a wonderful job getting everyone up and running over the years and made ourselves redundant!!

The key thing to remember is that smartlists and expressions cannot compare groups of files, they can only work on individual files...
For example, it is impossible to to get a smartlist to return albums that have more than three files rated three or more stars, but you can get a smartlist to return all files rated three or more stars.

We've not had a smartlist smackdown for a while, gappie's always up for one of those, rick's pretty awesome too, and without MrC, all that Regex goodness would be completely wasted on the rest of us. Vagskal is MrC's regex apprentice, and also well capable of answering or offering regex solutions... We're ready, let's have some questions...

-marko

[marko]

There really are limitless ways of using and combining expressions.  Here's a reference:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_expression_language

Folks ask about help in trying to accomplish something, and sometimes it involves creating some expressions to solve the problem.

There are additional posts in the wiki and in the forums here to help.

See that page has over 20,000 hits... I often wonder how many of those come away with something positive...

[rick.ca]

We've not had a smartlist smackdown for a while...

A Smartlist Smackdown is no fun unless the problem is seemingly but not obviously impossible to solve. Those are difficult to come up with. And it wouldn't be right for contenders to propose problems, so we're pretty much dependant on those questions. The wackier the better.

[locust]

How about a smartlist chain, see how many you can chain together & still get results without mc crashing.. Kind of like the usb test...

[marko]

I have 3 granddaughters. I have MC setup so that whenever they appear in a photo, the thumb text or slideshow caption shows their ages at the time, and it works whether there is none, one, two, or all three...

Vada, aged 6 years, Elli, aged 3 years and Amiee, aged 2 years - 26 February 2011

It's done like so...

Three seperate custom fields, one for each, that works out their ages based on their birth dates and the date of the photo. That's three of these:

if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),if(isequal([date],22//08//2008,8),Amiee's birthday,if(isequal([date],22//08//2009,8),Amiee's 1st birthday,if(isequal([date],22//08//2010,8),Aimee's 2nd birthday,if(isequal([date],22//08//2011,8),Amiee's 3rd birthday,if(isequal([date],22//08//2012,8),Amiee's 4th birthday,if(isequal([date],22//08//2013,8),Aimee's 5th birthday,if(isequal([date],23//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 1 day,if(isequal([date],24//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 2 days,if(isequal([date],25//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 3 days,if(isequal([date],26//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 4 days,if(isequal([date],27//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 5 days,if(isequal([date],28//08//2008,8),Amiee/, aged 6 days,if(isequal([numbers],080904,4),Amiee/, aged 1 week,if(isequal([numbers],080911,4),Amiee/, aged 2 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],080918,4),Amiee/, aged 3 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],080925,4),Amiee/, aged 4 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],081002,4),Amiee/, aged 5 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],081009,4),Amiee/, aged 6 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],081016,4),Amiee/, aged 7 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],081023,4),Amiee/, aged 8 weeks,if(isequal([numbers],081121,4),Amiee/, aged 2 months,if(isequal([numbers],081221,4),Amiee/, aged 3 months,if(isequal([numbers],090121,4),Amiee/, aged 4 months,if(isequal([numbers],090221,4),Amiee/, aged 5 months,if(isequal([numbers],090321,4),Amiee/, aged 6 months,if(isequal([numbers],090421,4),Amiee/, aged 7 months,if(isequal([numbers],090521,4),Amiee/, aged 8 months,if(isequal([numbers],090621,4),Amiee/, aged 9 months,if(isequal([numbers],090721,4),Amiee/, aged 10 months,if(isequal([numbers],090821,4),Amiee/, aged 11 months,if(isequal([numbers],090921,4),Amiee/, aged 1 year,if(isequal([numbers],091021,4),Amiee/, aged 13 months,if(isequal([numbers],091121,4),Amiee/, aged 14 months,if(isequal([numbers],091221,4),Amiee/, aged 15 months,if(isequal([numbers],100121,4),Amiee/, aged 16 months,if(isequal([numbers],100221,4),Amiee/, aged 17 months,if(isequal([numbers],100321,4),Amiee/, aged 18 months,if(isequal([numbers],100421,4),Amiee/, aged 19 months,if(isequal([numbers],100521,4),Amiee/, aged 20 months,if(isequal([numbers],100621,4),Amiee/, aged 21 months,if(isequal([numbers],100721,4),Amiee/, aged 22 months,if(isequal([numbers],100821,4),Amiee/, aged 23 months,if(isequal([numbers],110821,4),Amiee/, aged 2 years,if(isequal([numbers],120821,4),Amiee/, aged 3 years,if(isequal([numbers],130821,4),Amiee/, aged 4 years,if(isequal([numbers],140821,4),Amiee/, aged 5 years,if(isequal([numbers],150821,4),Amiee/, aged 6 years,if(isequal([numbers],160821,4),Amiee/, aged 7 years,if(isequal([numbers],170821,4),Amiee/, aged 8 years,if(isequal([numbers],180821,4),Amiee/, aged 9 years,if(isequal([numbers],190821,4),Amiee/, aged 10 years,if(isequal([numbers],200821,4),Amiee/, aged 11 years,if(isequal([numbers],210821,4),Amiee/, aged 12 years,if(isequal([numbers],220821,4),Amiee/, aged 13 years,if(isequal([numbers],230821,4),Amiee/, aged 14 years,fix the caption))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))),)

The [numbers] field you see referenced in the expression above, is yet another calculated field that turns the date the photo was taken into a six digit number, which is then compared against their birthdays in the same six digit format.

Depending upon how many of them are in any given photo, changes how the caption should read (where does the "and" go?), so, they're strung together using another custom field like so... MC tests for each name, and pulls the age from the appropriate field if it is found. If there's more than one, it tests for the other to determine the correct place to write "and"

if(isequal([keywords],people\vada,8),[vada's age],)if(isequal([keywords],people\elli,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\vada,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),/,/ [elli's age],/ and [elli's age]),[elli's age]),)if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\elli,8),/ and [amiee's age],if(isequal([keywords],people\vada,8),/ and [amiee's age],[amiee's age])),)

Finally, I want the date in there too, with a " - " separator... another custom field...

if(isequal([keywords],people\vada,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\elli,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy)),if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy))),if(isequal([keywords],people\elli,8),if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy)),if(isequal([keywords],people\amiee,8),/ - formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy),formatdate([date,0],dd MMMM yyyy))))

The thumbnail text is simply [baby's age][baby's date] and MC does the whole lot without breaking sweat and is covered 'til they reach 14 years.
I don't believe it's possible to crash MC with this stuff, I'm also pretty sure I couldn't cope with all the permutations a fourth grandchild would introduce, if that happens, I may throw in the towel.

[rick.ca]

The thumbnail text is simply [baby's age][baby's date] and MC does the whole lot without breaking sweat and is covered 'til they reach 14 years.

Yes, but MrC could do it with 50 characters of regex.

[marko]

probably discussing it in private with vagskal right now

vagskal, I'm typing your name from memory, if I'm getting wrong, no offence intended!

[locust]

Thats impressive Marko

I'll have to remember to come to you for advice when I get round to organising my photos...
How good is MC for photos btw...
Nothing beats MC for audio but I'm not too sure about pictures.  How does MC compare to say Picasa?

[marko]

I couldn't tell you because I haven't used it.

For me, MC and images satisfies but is overdue some love.

I've read posts from others who want MC to do 'face tagging'... apparently, Picasa is quite good at that.
Pix01 works, but could also use some love. Uploading could not be easier, but when you get there, hmmm, a simple "More from this publisher" button would be a handy place to start...
I'm sure our image libraries will get some dev time soon, hopefully once all this video stuff is worked out...
I feel there will be an outpouring of suggestions and opinions when that starts, just keep an eye on the forums.

"stacking" works very well in MC for images.
It requires such an investment of time applying the tags, even deciding how to go about applying them can be quite a headf**k that for me, messing around with different apps felt counter productive, I put my faith in JRiver and MC and so far, they have not let me down.
I decided eventually to disregard separate "people, places, events" fields, and put the whole lot into the keywords field. MC does nesting in list type fields remarkably well. If you're not sure what I mean, add a keyword to something using a back slash, such as "People\Brian" then see how that works in a view with a keyword pane. These work like magic in theater view too, and the list based expression functions can be leveraged to create useful, interesting or downright confusing browsing paths!! Using just one field makes tagging much easier.

I keep my old AcdSee installed purely for editing the EXIF dates on those photos that need it, when MC allows this, it'll be gone for good, and I keep XnView around for its excellent selective metadata cleaning tool. Want to remove the IPTC data and all other app markers, but preserve the XMP and EXIF tags? Get XnView (it's free). When MC can do that, XnView can go too.

In the end, I guess it depends on what you want from your image library. For now, slideshows on the TV, to music, with captions displayed, keeps me happy. Face tagging might be cool, adding location tags could be good too, as might the ability to burn a picture disc DVD similar to something ProShow might produce.. make neat gifts that could. Loads of untapped potential there... just waiting, the image library's turn will come around in time...

-marko

[Gl3nn]

See that page has over 20,000 hits... I often wonder how many of those come away with something positive...

<Raises hand... several times>

[locust]

Sounds far more complicated organising photos compared to audio or video but it looks like it pays off in the end.. Picasa is good.. Especially the face tagging... Although Picasa does lack in areas, it is difficult and cumbersome to organise the physical locations of your photos.. My photos were a mess when I put them in picasa and they still are... MC looks like it will be much better for the organisation and custom viewing parts but looks like it lacks the fancy features other programs have like the face tagging etc..

Music is my main priority with MC, video second and then photos..

I wouldn't mind a HTPC, I don't like the idea of using theatre view though, I prefer the program interface.. I'd need to get a wireless keyboard with touchpad.. Don't like the idea of using a remote especially for music videos are fine like that. I have quite a bit of music and the though of a remote just sounds tedious..

Hey do you think you guys might try and ever use the Microsoft Kinect Sdk to experiment and see if you could potentially control MC with it?? Or at least part of it..

[vagskal]

probably discussing it in private with vagskal right now

vagskal, I'm typing your name from memory, if I'm getting wrong, no offence intended!

Nothing to discuss. RegEx() is good with finding strings, not handling integers or decimal values.

Perhaps the new IfElse() function could make your expression a bit shorter.

[JustinChase]

The expressions or smartlists created are brilliant and just work, but to post them, then explain their use, along with the reason behind any given number of custom fields involved, is just tiresome, and for the most part, pointless, as the given string won't really be of any use to anyone else.

I don't entirely agree with this, but I do understand you point.  I think that many of us want similar things when looking at/using our media.

Well take Images as an example.  MC automatically puts the date of the photo for the "Album".  I don't really understand this, and don't see any practical use for this.  The TheaterView shows Album as a roller selection, but it shows me thousands of "albums" which are really dates, and it's totally useless from a usability standpoint.

I imagine every single person using MC has changed this.  Why do we all have to {reinvent this wheel} individually?

I'm guessing there are several people here that have well tagged photos, and some great views to take advantage.  ANY of those would be better than what I have now.  Even if I don't understand how they did it, or why they setup the necessary custom fields, blindly accepting their work would certainly be better than this album thing above.

I'm not saying it would be easy to do, and I certainly don't think everyone would agree on the 'best' way to do anything, but I'm 100% certain that rick.ca has some amazing views based on him saying he has to re-create hundreds of views when TheaterView was re-written.  Even if I don't have all of his custom fields, nor understand them, I'm sure I'd rather base some of my views on his work, and figure out how to get it to work for me (maybe by just changing the way I'm currently doing something), than trying to start from scratch, without any known functional/useful endpoint in mind.

The point being, I think users of media want generally similar things from a usability standpoint, but we all have to get there separately.  I think this can be improved, and sharing our work would result in more users having more useful interactions with MC than the current situation.

I'm imagining some sort of export/import of views/smartlists/etc, but that also includes any 'custom' fields.  When exporting, MC could ask us, "This includes custom field [amiee], would you like to explain its use?" and let you give a quick explanation on how to use/setup this field (or not).  Then, when someone imports it, they get "This includes custom field [amiee], which is used for {whatever your explanation was}, to help point them in the right direction.

I imagine that this would lead to many people discovering they are doing things in a very similar way, and the real common uses could be considered for "official" inclusion in MC moving forward.

[MrC]

Ugh, that expression Marko! :-)

How about using:

Amiee/, aged math(1 + [numbers] - 080904) weeks

for your weeks calculation.  You can do likewise for the months, and birthday portions, collapsing the expression substantially (and hence the load time).

[MrC]

probably discussing it in private with vagskal right now

vagskal, I'm typing your name from memory, if I'm getting wrong, no offence intended!

We'll rule the world ( s/me/you/g ) !

[locust]

I imagine every single person using MC has changed this.  Why do we all have to {reinvent this wheel} individually?

I agree that why I think it would be beneficial if there were an area where people with advanced libraries could make a backup and give the bare bones to other people to play around with.. A little documentation to what is in it would help but it wouldn't have to be much.. I think there are the people who enjoy messing around with expressions, personally I enjoy it even if some of it is over my head a at times.. As for the other say 50% of people, they could potentially learn a great deal just at looking at the bones of someone else library..

You would just have to tell everybody to have a quick glimpse in areas they might not know for a better understanding.. For instance are the panes using expressions, are there any custom fields with expressions and finally one that I discovered much later but found it to be immensely fundamental to my library the "Set rules for file display" & "access control"..

What I am saying is in general people the map (barebones), tell them roughly where to look to understand it and leave the rest to them.. I think alot of people would find that a much easier experience of learning rather than trawling through the many discussions here.. There could even be a sub forum where users who are implementing the bare bones could talk to each another and help each another while they are learning possibly requiring much less attention than now from more experienced members.. All I'm saying is you get multiple types of people so you might as well have multiple different routes to the same destination..

[marko]

Ugh, that expression Marko! :-)

How about using:

Amiee/, aged math(1 + [numbers] - 080904) weeks

for your weeks calculation.  You can do likewise for the months, and birthday portions, collapsing the expression substantially (and hence the load time).

The first one was done back in the day when MC couldn't do math(). It worked, I'm getting lazy, so I ran it through a find/replace tool a few times to get the  other two. I honestly don't notice any slowdown. This could be because I've set them up as custom fields rather than directly applied expressions in the view, I don't know. I may try compressing them and see if it speeds things up.

[vagskal]

To the OP (whose thread seems to have been hijacked by seasoned users): I know how you feel. In the beginning I thought MC, and its expressions, was like a puzzle where I did not know what the completed image could/would look like and I did not know where the edges were on each piece of the puzzle. But it gets better with time if you follow the relevant discussions in the forum. The MC Expression Language wiki page by Marko and MrC is an important step, and I hope they/we can keep that page up to date with the continuous improvements to the expression language. I do not mind learning but for me there must be some kind of basic reference to learn from. Now I think we have that thanks to the users I just mentioned.

The advise already given in this thread (tell what your goal is and ask for advice in the forum on how to achieve it) is good, and I am sure you will get assistance. At least you can be sure to get no rtfm answers since there is no manual . When someone is sharing knowledge, like Rick just did in the cover management thread and Alex B and others often do, listen/read, try it out (in a Test view or even a Test library) and ask if you do not understand or want clarification. We have all asked stupid questions or made silly bug reports, at least I know I have and still do.

I do not think you will get a sticky in the forum form the JRiver moderators since that would be like an endorsed thread of solutions, but you can always make your own entry in the wiki with links to threads with valuable expression language information, and useful descriptions for each link.

[locust]

Very true, thanks everybody for the help with expressions, Thanks Marko for the wiki page on expressions

I do not think you will get a sticky in the forum form the JRiver moderators since that would b like an endorsed thread of solutions, but you can always make your own entry in the wiki with links with links to threads with valuable expression language information, and useful descriptions for each link.

Does that mean if people wanted they could post barebones anyway on the wiki?? I am all for learning but I believe people learn different ways, Take for instance I can't draw or paint to save myself.. The best chance I'd ever get at creating a masterpiece would be painting a little over someone else.. I believe the same applies for expressions, people would still learn that way, just not as in depth as everybody else.. But they'd still get the same fruit even though they don't know as much.. I don't think it would discourage people dabbling with expressions you are away going to get people who want a personal custom solution and will gladly discuss it in the forum..

When I was small the best way I learnt about stuff was by taking it apart (reverse engineering) not building it from scratch.. I think the same can apply here.. Once my library is complete, I'll post my barebones on the wiki..

[vagskal]

Does that mean if people wanted they could post barebones anyway on the wiki?

I think you have to get a special registration on the wiki, and whatever you add to the wiki can be changed/deleted by any other registered user of the wiki. That is in the nature of a wiki

[rick.ca]

When someone is sharing knowledge, like Rick just did in the cover management thread and Alex B and others often do, listen/read, try it out (in a Test view or even a Test library) and ask if you do not understand or want clarification.

I think this is the best advice. The software is so powerful and flexible, writing any sort of generic guide on broad topics like "How to configure an audio view" is an unfathomable task. Consider my Cover Maintenance topic. Even for a highly specific, task-oriented subject, the topic is long and involved. As I was writing it, it occurred to me it might make a better wiki entry than a post. But I realized, no, if it doesn't grab anyone's interest and generate some discussion, the exercise is pointless. That's because there is no right way or best practise, even for something this specific. Even most readers keenly interested and in need of advice will end up doing it their own way. Even the author will learn important things from the comments and questions of others.

Wiki topics are useful for more or less static reference information, like Core Commands, Expression Language and File Properties. They're also useful for "How to" guides for things that more or less have to be done the same way under any circumstances. Otherwise, discussion here is much more effective. There are probably many past discussions that could be distilled into useful wiki topics (and many have been), but that requires some knowledgeable users willing to do so.

One thing that can be very helpful is something marko is very good at doing—providing a list of topics relevant to whatever the question at hand is. I often wonder how he does that. He's either a wizard when it come to searching the forum, or he maintains some sort of personal index. But this is something newcomers might share as well—with topics along the lines of, "I just learned how to do this, and found these references useful." If it's of interest to others, the topic will generate more discussion, maybe even including, "We should write this up as a wiki topic."

I still remember the feeling of not know where to start. It didn't go away until I accepted I was not going to be able to do everything at once. Most of what I've learned is from considering specific techniques others have commented on or illustrated. Sometimes things things can be implemented quickly and directly, resulting in instant gratification. More often, they're applied to a somewhat different situation (i.e., "if he can do that, maybe I can do this"). That usually requires effort without guarantee of success, and results in a different kind of gratification. Either way, I get to apply myself to whatever interests me at the time, and am usually rewarded with a cool (and sometimes even useful) result.

I also understand some users are naturally inclined to relate to the application the same way I do—and many who are not. To the latter group, I'm not sure what to say. You're not wrong in wanting everything to magically work the way you think it should work, but I don't know how to help you. The reason is simple: If I could go back in time to when I was a new user, and somehow give myself the configuration (and all the practices that go with it) I have now, I'm absolutely certain I would just say, "What the heck is this?!" I'm not suggesting improvements can't be made in laying out a clearer path for newcomers, but it's not an easy thing to do.

[locust]

I completely agree with most of what you are saying.

The only way I can think of how I felt when I first started, it feels like being an artist that has been commissioned to paint a painting, only that you've never even seen a completed painting.. So how do you do it?

If I could go back in time to when I was a new user, and somehow give myself the configuration (and all the practices that go with it) I have now, I'm absolutely certain I would just say, "What the heck is this?!"

I feel of opposite to that point, sure I would have been lost, but I'd gain more understanding from seeing a complete setup as a starting point whilst looking at the wiki and fourms to get a better understanding a system that is already there rather than thinking of you're own requirements, planning ahead, checking if what you want to do is even possible and then doing it.. I mean a lot of people probably don't know what they want and would find it much easier being, not told but set on a path.. I'm pretty indecisive when it comes to what I want, so getting my library off the ground took extra effort.. I think the same saying Steve Jobs once said could apply to this "An old saying at Apple Computer, attributed to Steve Jobs, meaning that it is .... A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them. ..." Showing it is the key a lot of people can't  read the forums & got though your descriptions and imagine it for themselves, they need to see the finished article..

I guess for some people it's easier to experience something if you slip into someone else's shoes..

When I first started I used the expression wiki is a starting point, I'd had no idea how to mash them up.. It's when I see other code that I get an understanding..

I still can't write an expression off hand, for instance for an if is equal expression I go to the wiki every time and copy & paste..

If people had other peoples library as barebones, the wiki would be like the dictionary and the library setup would be the book... I can't dream up a story out of a dictionary but I'd get a better chance of a little literary inspiration of my own if I had both a book and a dictionary.. Well two dictionaries, this forum as well as the wiki, I'd expect people would still use every resource available to understand it all..

I'm not talking about give the barebones of you're library and walking everybody through it, let them find there own way from there.. It would mainly give a better insight as to what they could do with there own library... Sometimes it is easier to understand stuff if you can see it rather than discuss it..

Sorry I think my post has simile overload.

[Gl3nn]

FWIW, the screen shots of you experts' library views is what helps me the most to realize what really can be done.

A picture, as they say, is worth a 1000...

[locust]

FWIW, the screen shots of you experts' library views is what helps me the most to realize what really can be done.

A picture, as they say, is worth a 1000...

True I feel them same way but sometimes a picture isn't enough the video would be better, if you know what I mean..