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Author Topic: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb  (Read 5003 times)

birthdaymonkey

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A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« on: January 28, 2012, 10:43:01 am »

First of all, I'd like to commend JRiver on a very good product. I recently decided to try your Media Center because MPC-HC (and every other player I tried) was driving me nuts with audio sync issues at 24p. Whichever visionary developer put in an option to allow different audio sync compensations for 24p and 25/60p has almost certainly made a sale.

I've been quite pleased with the trial version, but I have a couple of issues I'd like to get cleared up before I purchase the full version of the software.

My system: Pentium G620 (Sandy Bridge), 4GB DDR3, Asus P8Z68M-Pro, Vertex 2 50GB, 2x 2TB WD Green, S/PDIF out to a 2-channel DAC/amp, Samsung LN40C630 LCD 1080p TV, Win7 64. I mostly play 720p and 1080p .mkv content.

1. So far I've returned two video cards because the first one (EVGA GTS 450) was loud and the second one (Sapphire 6670) didn't have GDDR5 memory. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive ($100 max), quiet video card that has enough power and memory to run Red October HQ? My case will not accommodate passive cards with a heatsink that sticks up above more than a few mm above the PCI bracket. (Currently considering this one: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500191, but it only has 512MB of memory...is that enough for 1080p RO-HQ?)

2. As long as I'm stuck with the Intel processor graphics, I'll be using RO Standard quality. However, I get black crush because the Intel video drivers are currently broken and will not allow Full RGB output. Thus, I am forced to use Limited RGB. When using RO HQ, I could compensate for this by telling madVR to output TV levels (16-235), but I can't figure out how to do it without madVR.

3. Is there any way to get statistics in RO-SQ like you can by pressing Ctrl-J in madVR? I'd like to know if I'm experiencing dropped frames.

4. In my library view, many of my video thumbnails show the album art of an mp3 album (the same one...All Eternals Deck by The Mountain Goats) that I have on my hard drive. I can't seem to change them or make them scan the video file for a screen shot thumbnail.

Thanks and keep up the good work!
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 11:42:27 am »

For #4 I'd try:

1. First, ensure the [Image File] tag for the files in question is not set explicitly to an external image file (the one you're seeing).  In a Details view in Standard View, just make sure you have the Image File column enabled, and then you should be able to see the file path (and sort by that column if you need to).  That "tag" can be set to an explicit path, a relative path, to "inside file" for supported file types, or to blank.

Retag any of them that are set to the wrong thing to blank.  If you find a bunch, just sort by the Image File column, select them all, and fix the tag all at once.

This is probably not it, but it is worth checking first.  Perhaps when you were first learning the application, you accidentally tagged them all this way incorrectly (I can't imagine how, but who knows)?  Either way, you might be able to find a cause or a pattern in the [Image File] tag, or maybe something special about the files that are broken, if you look at this.  A more likely solution is...

2. Rebuilding your thumbnail cache:

Options -> Tree & View -> Thumbnails -> Erase All Thumbnails
Options -> Tree & View -> Thumbnails -> Build Missing Thumbnails
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 11:54:28 am »

I should add... The first thing I mentioned above (#1) is possible if you've been struggling with this for a while without posting, and you used older builds of MC.

There was a problem with MC's handling of video cover art a while back that could cause this if you had your files named identically in MC (as might happen if they all came in "unnamed" ripped from DVD named identically).  It is now solved, and each video file gets its own sidecar cover art file, but files where you added cover art using the old system may still be "broken".

I still don't think this is likely because you shouldn't be seeing an audio album's cover art if you were impacted by this old bug (you'd see duplicate cover art from whichever file you "tagged" last in this case), and the problem has been fixed for quite some time now.

Instead, something seems to be wrong with the thumbnail cache.  Did you do any weirdness with your library files (copying them around to different machines instead of using the backup/restore functionality, for example)?
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 12:17:26 pm »

Thanks for the quick reply, Glynor. I've only been using MC for a few days, so it's not the result of a bug with an older system. The fix doesn't seem to be too hard, just a bit time consuming. I've spent so much time messing with graphics cards, video filters, refresh rates, etc. since setting up my HTPC that I hadn't really devoted enough time to tinkering with the library. I should have done so before posting! I'm just going through my library and selecting files, deleting the cover art, and letting MC do a scan of the file. Also adding info from TMDB one file at a time to get proper cover art (this is the part that will likely take a while).

Another library issue I haven't figured out is how to add more categories to the menu on the left. Currently under videos "Type" I've got movies, tv shows, and unassigned. I'd like to add a class for "documentaries," but I can't figure out how to add a new one. The end goal is to be able to quickly look at all my videos in Theatre View and switch between docs, tv, and movies to select files for watching.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 01:54:05 pm »

.

1. So far I've returned two video cards because the first one (EVGA GTS 450) was loud and the second one (Sapphire 6670) didn't have GDDR5 memory. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive ($100 max), quiet video card that has enough power and memory to run Red October HQ? My case will not accommodate passive cards with a heatsink that sticks up above more than a few mm above the PCI bracket. (Currently considering this one: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500191, but it only has 512MB of memory...is that enough for 1080p RO-HQ?)


I have two machines with nVidia graphics cards. The first is an i3-2100; I added a Gigabyte Windforce GTS450 (DDR5). The second is an intel E8400 with the Asus GT440 (DDR5). Both cards have fans but I can't hear the fans running when 1 foot away. I run RO+HQ on these computers without issue. I bitstream to an Onkyo TX705 on one computer and just coneect directly to TV/monitor via HDMI on second. I recommend either of these cards.
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 02:12:40 pm »



I have two machines with nVidia graphics cards. The first is an i3-2100; I added a Gigabyte Windforce GTS450 (DDR5). The second is an intel E8400 with the Asus GT440 (DDR5). Both cards have fans but I can't hear the fans running when 1 foot away. I run RO+HQ on these computers without issue. I bitstream to an Onkyo TX705 on one computer and just coneect directly to TV/monitor via HDMI on second. I recommend either of these cards.

That's just the kind of info I was looking for. I can't seem to find the Windforce 450 anywhere, but is this the GT 440 card you have? http://ncix.com/products/?sku=59242&vpn=ENGT440%2FDI%2F1GD5&manufacture=ASUS#CustomerReviews
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 06:56:58 am »

Bump. Any other input on my questions?
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BryanC

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 07:45:49 am »

Bump. Any other input on my questions?

Are you positive RO HQ w/ hardware acceleration won't work reliably on your system? The new LAV Video decoder utilizes DXVA, which would make the G620 much more feasible as a video card.

As for the video card question, I have a GT240 with GDDR5 and it plays everything I throw at it fine. So I would recommend anything at that or above it in the product line with GDDR5.

Another thing you may want to consider is upgrading to a full-fledged Sandy Bridge CPU with quick sync. This would obviously be just as quiet as your current setup, and the price difference will be about the same as purchasing a discrete GPU. Using madVR would then solve your other issues.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 11:39:34 am »

That's just the kind of info I was looking for. I can't seem to find the Windforce 450 anywhere, but is this the GT 440 card you have? http://ncix.com/products/?sku=59242&vpn=ENGT440%2FDI%2F1GD5&manufacture=ASUS#CustomerReviews

I didn't see the Windforce on Newegg (where I bought it) so maybe it was discontinued. Take a look at this card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125342
The Asus card you linked to - looks to be the same one I have (again, I bought from Newegg). The 440 is pleanty though (I found the 430 to be too weak), so get which ever card is cheaper at the time.
Good luck
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 05:09:22 pm »

I didn't think to try RO HQ with hardware acceleration. With the 720 and 1080p content I play it doesn't seem to use up more than 50% of my CPU power. The G620, despite its Pentium moniker, seems to have a lot of oomph. I was getting the occasional dropped frame (one every few mins) in 1080p playback with RO HQ (madVR bilinear), but this might have been a 24p issue with the Intel GPU being unable to display exactly 23.976Hz. I have noticed a few frane irregularities with RO SQ as well, but I don't know how to really isolate the source of the problem. 

Wouldn't it disable madVR if I was using DXVA?
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fitbrit

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 10:48:40 pm »

I didn't think to try RO HQ with hardware acceleration. With the 720 and 1080p content I play it doesn't seem to use up more than 50% of my CPU power. The G620, despite its Pentium moniker, seems to have a lot of oomph. I was getting the occasional dropped frame (one every few mins) in 1080p playback with RO HQ (madVR bilinear), but this might have been a 24p issue with the Intel GPU being unable to display exactly 23.976Hz. I have noticed a few frane irregularities with RO SQ as well, but I don't know how to really isolate the source of the problem. 

Wouldn't it disable madVR if I was using DXVA?


With nVidia cards, hardware acceleration can use CUVID instead of DXVA. MadVR and CUVID work perfectly together.
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 10:05:29 am »

With nVidia cards, hardware acceleration can use CUVID instead of DXVA. MadVR and CUVID work perfectly together.

Ah yes! I knew that somewhere deep down in my mind. What about hardware acceleration via Quicksync? Does that work when using an external GPU or just when using the iGPU?
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bpchia

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 05:31:14 pm »

Can't madVR use DXVA now?  Or has this not been implemented yet in ROHQ?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 05:52:56 pm »

For a cheap video card you can't beat the NVidea GT 430. It does HD Audio out, supports just about every audio format MC can output (certainly a lot more than my amp can handle), has decent video performance and can take advantage of LAVCUDA acceleration built into Red October. And it is is quiet. At least the EVGA card I have is. I had an older but powerful ATI card in there before. It had great performance but was loud and didn't support HD Audio.

The card isn't going to win any awards for gaming performance, but handles 1080p video without problem. Perfect for HTPC.
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 05:58:31 pm »

All of the current models (and the 5000 series cards too, I think) of AMD's GPUs support bitstreaming HD Audio fully.
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BryanC

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 06:14:55 pm »

Can't madVR use DXVA now?  Or has this not been implemented yet in ROHQ?

That's a good question. I think it depends on if the decoded frames are sent back to the CPU memory.

Same question with Quick Sync.
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bpchia

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 08:46:29 pm »

I looked further into my comment, I think it can only do DXVA deinterlacing, not decoding.
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 09:37:38 pm »

What about hardware acceleration via Quicksync? Does that work when using an external GPU or just when using the iGPU?

No, you have to be using the CPU's GPU.

However, Lucid Logix makes an application called Virtu that virtualizes your GPUs and allows you to use a discreet GPU and Intel's Quicksync simultaneously.  Here's a first look, and here's a little follow up.

However, just to be clear, Intel's QuickSync is a GPU accelerated video transcoding engine.  It is, essentially, a hardware implementation of H.264.  It does not accelerate video decoding at all (though DXVA can with supported filters).

Regarding GDDR5 cards versus a larger DDR3 frame buffer... The situation isn't always 100% clear, but a good rule of thumb for these kind of low-end cards is go for memory bandwidth and latency (speed) before size.  Mostly the large frame buffers (above 1GB certainly) are for storing high-resolution textures for gaming at 2550x1440 and above.

Low end GPUs are no where near powerful enough to drive any modern highly textured game fast enough at those kinds of resolutions, so it isn't needed there.  Larger memory sizes also can come into play when you are doing GPGPU tasks on very large data sets.  The on-card RAM is essentially a giant cache.  It is "closer to" the GPU, and usually operating at a much higher bandwidth than the onboard RAM (unless it comes with DDR3), and it doesn't have to go through the OS to allocate it, so it is generally faster than paging out to system RAM.  However, the point of this is to keep the data pipeline in the GPU shaders filled, so the GPU doesn't spend time waiting for data to come from system RAM.  So, it fills the buffers as it goes from system RAM, but if your GPU is fast, it can eat the data up faster than the system RAM can fill the buffer.

Low-end GPUs have so few shader units, and are so (relatively) slow, that they'll never burn through 512MB or 1GB of on-board RAM before the buffer can be trickle-refilled from the system RAM, which is also darn-fast in a modern Sandy Bridge CPU.  They aren't fast enough at most tasks (except maybe contrived synthetic benchmarks) for it to matter.  That's why in the old days they used to share system RAM.  But RAM is so cheap now in volume that shady graphics card OEMs can slap 2GB on a puny card and sell it for much more than they could the same card with 512MB of RAM.  It is used as a marketing vehicle, not for performance.

I've explained elsewhere why judging a card purely based on GDDR5 vs GDDR4 vs DDR3 can be a large fallacy.  What matters is not the RAM "type", but the data rate and latency.  The data rate is a function of memory speed (bandwidth) and the GPU's memory controller width.  If you take some GDDR5 chips running on 1 GPU that has a 256-bit memory bus, and compare it to the exact same chips running at the exact same "speed", but attached to a chip that has only a 128-bit bus, the latter will have literally 1/2 the over all data rate.  Plus, GDDR5 RAM usually has higher latency than DDR3 per-clock.  It can run at such high clockspeeds that it, usually, still works out to be quicker in "real time" than the slower, lower-latency memory.  But that only applies if the vendor is actually shipping high bandwidth GDDR5, and isn't buying bottom-of-the-bin RAM chips and slapping them on an old GPU with a tiny memory interface.

And, they do just that to sell them to people who don't understand the intricacies at higher margins.
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 09:46:08 pm »

By the way, the Nvidia GT430 is pretty darn old.  Not a bad chip at all for HTPC use, but it is really old and outdated (note the date on that review).  That doesn't mean it might not be a good choice, but it is something to consider.  They don't put anywhere near the effort into the drivers for older GPUs, and that one is probably threatening to fall off support any day now.

The AMD 6450 is worth considering, especially if you can find one now that actually ships with a full-speed GPU and GDDR5 memory.  As is waiting for the brand-new AMD 7x00 series to filter down to the lower-end cards in a month or three (even if you don't buy the 7770, its release will drop the prices on all of the competing and lower-end cards fairly dramatically for a few months).

Here's a really good, relatively modern (only 7-months old), HTPC Discreet GPU shootout from Anandtech.  Great all-around info in there.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 09:03:45 am »

Quote
By the way, the Nvidia GT430 is pretty darn old.


Yes no argument there. However it is the cheapest card I could find that meets nearly every expectation of an HTPC - and it is quiet. In addition if you have a low powered CPU, it does support hardware accelerated video via LAV and CUDA. Currently ATI/AMD products do not (or were not last time I checked). They may support acceleration via DXVA, but that is not as good as CUDA as only certain things can be offloaded. In addition I've always found DXVA to be flaky and very hit or miss to get working. It also removes the possibility of post processing, so I don't think it can be used with Red October HQ at all.

I don't want to give the impression that ATI products are inferior to NVidea though. I've used both and I used to own a company that built PCs, so I've used a lot. I was pretty much 100% in the ATI camp before, but now I pick whatever seems to do the job better. Its been a long while since I built computers though, so I'm certainly no hardware guru by any means. I'm just saying that I've seen good things from both camps.

Drivers really are not an issue IMHO. First the chips are usually designed so that a very low amount of work is required to write drivers for newer ones. This also helps with supporting the older chips as newer code is often backwards compatible. The ATI card I had in the HTPC was a 3570 (that's REALLY old) and worked without issue in the HTPC. In addition most of the bugs I've seen addressed in drivers relate to games etc. Very few were for general video, however there were some, and they addressed them on my older card as well. Still, there is a possibility that something may not get fixed so that is something to consider. But I would say it is a small risk.

I'm guessing there are ATI cards in the $50 -$70 range that can do all that the GT 430 can, but if you have an "under powered" cpu, the 430 might be a better choice.
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glynor

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 10:24:00 am »

I'm guessing there are ATI cards in the $50 -$70 range that can do all that the GT 430 can, but if you have an "under powered" cpu, the 430 might be a better choice.

Agreed... For ROHQ specifically, a "generalized" Nvidia card might be a better choice.  On general principle I tend to prefer AMD GPUs at the low end because they actually build chips specifically designed for them.  Nvidia just keeps shipping very old crap for years and years, and then drops support for them suddenly. (I've gotten burned, can you tell?)

But, I totally agree, the best product is the one that meets your needs the best.  I was mostly speaking theoretically.

However...

In addition if you have a low powered CPU, it does support hardware accelerated video via LAV and CUDA. Currently ATI/AMD products do not (or were not last time I checked).

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1554374#post1554374

Quote
New and note-worthy? Well....

DXVA2 "copy back"
In our series of hardware decoders, the new DXVA2 decoder now features hardware decoding also for AMD/ATI.
Its a "copy back" (or "renderless") decoder - that means all frames are copied back from the GPU to normal memory.

Sadly, however, AMD/ATI cards suffer from a serious performance penalty, which prevents them from showing their full potential. The decoder is fully Blu-ray compliant, and even goes beyond that, however playing 60fps movies will most likely not work fluidly.
H.264, VC-1 and MPEG-2 are fully supported (progressive and interlaced), as long as your hardware can keep up. Very old AMD/ATI cards, like 3000 series and below, might not be able to use this decoder. 4000 and up seem to be working ok.

I do have plans to work on a "native" DXVA2 decoder, which does not need to copy the frames back from the GPU, avoiding this performance bottleneck - however that goes with the loss of the flexibility of course. No post-processor, only EVR, etc.

For everyone else, i recommend to stick to your native decoders (CUVID/QuickSync), as they generally work better and faster then DXVA2.

So... Generally, something that supports CUDA will likely work best with ROHQ at this time.  But LAV can now handle hardware decoding on AMD/ATI hardware (as of the most recent release, being rolled into RO now).

I, frankly, just wish CUDA would DIAF... It is because of all the money Nvidia is spending on marketing CUDA that we don't have a good open GPGPU spec that is widely supported.  I want to be able to switch back and forth between GPU vendors without having to worry about this crap.  >:(

Also... I would tend to agree that, if it is possible, spending the money on a better CPU instead might be a more flexible all-around solution if you have no intention of gaming.

But, that might exceed his price point requirement.  I'd also look at the GTS 450 cards from Nvidia, if you can find a good one.
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pcstockton

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 11:55:28 am »

Sorry for the thread jack....  But as long as you are talking about video cards.

I have an old Dell Dimension (i know, i know, its a POS).  About 5 years ago I bought a NVidia GeForce 4500GT (128mb i think).  I used it when I first started using a PC connected to my Vizio.  I assumed the stock card wouldn't output widescreen/HD etc....

I installed said card but the fan on the card was so loud it was distracting when listening to music or a movie.  So I reinstalled the factory card and went about my life.  I use this via RBG output (would DVI be better?) and it seems to work fine.  Although I have a feeling it is not giving the best possible output to my HDTV.

So....... I am thinking about building up a new PC.  Is there anything special I should look for the video card?  I dont watch BluRay or anything.  Everything is either standard DVD or steaming from Netflix.

Most importantly I would like a relatively quiet card.

Lastly, is there anything I can do with the 4500GT card?  Is it simply ancient?  Worth keeping? etc....

Thanks is advance!
Patrick
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CountryBumkin

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 04:12:31 pm »

Patrick,
I say just get a Sandy Bridge based MB with integrated graphics and forget about an external Video card. For what you want to do, a i3-2100 (with integrated HD2000 GPU) will be enough - or a i3-2125 with integrated HD3000.

BTW - what slot type is that 4500 - AGP? It is probably not compatible with any current system/build.
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pcstockton

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2012, 08:08:09 pm »

Thanks CountryBumkin!!!!

I did not know video cards were basically obsolete!

Thanks for the advice.  I will look for exactly that.

It is a PCI card by the way.  

Cheers!
Patrick

[edit by Matt -- please no obscene abbreviations of user's handles]
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birthdaymonkey

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2012, 08:46:40 pm »

Found a good deal on a 550 Ti. $120 shipped, no rebates. It's a PNY with a custom cooler, so I honestly have no idea how loud it's going to be. However, I can return the card with RMA shipping covered by the retailer. So if it turns out to be unsuitable (like the ridiculously noisy EVGA GTS 450 I initially purchased), this will be the third card I've returned. But of course I'm hoping it'll be great--192-bit GDDR5 memory with more GPU horsepower than a 5770 should be overkill. I really want to try CUVID+madVR, and always looking for an excuse to upgrade my computers. :)
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gvanbrunt

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Re: A couple of questions from a JRiver newb
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 04:39:55 pm »

Glynor:

Thanks for the info from doom9. Haven't had time to keep up with all the LAV changes and that is handy to know.

And I agree that Nivida does use old chips and knocks the price down. I haven't been burned yet on the cheapo stuff though. At the price of the GT 430 I can afford buy another card with new features when it becomes obsolete. Hopefully that won't be until Quad HD and the like becomes more common. :)

And about CUDA, I also agree, there should be an open standard for all Video Cards. Perhaps MS will create something with Direct X that will force them play nice... It has done that in the past.
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