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[locust]

HI

I use delimiters in my Album Artists tags.. I do this to that when I select either artist in the album artist pane that the album appears under both artists...

I got one question though, say for instance I have

4kuba -  Album 1 and

4kuba;6tm Anon - Album 2

When scrolling through the list that is sorted by Album Artist, whether it is Album Thumbnails or not.. Album 2 will only appear under 4kuba, as it appears first in the tag...

Should there be an option to allow mc to treat delimited tags in a different way? For instance when mc is generating the view and it comes to Album 2 it will list it under 4kuba, then when it gets to artists 6tm Anon - Album to it could invert the delimited tags so that 6tm Anon was in front, and list it again?? (Don't know if the word invert is appropriately as there could potentially be more than 2 delimiters in an entry..)

Just seems appropriate to me for scrolling though the artists, maybe a toggle buttons would be complimentary to turn this behaviour on & off...

Thank you

[rick.ca]

[Album Artist] is a string field. Including a delimiter in the string does not turn it into a list field. Use an expression pane instead: [Album Artist]&DataType=[List].

[locust]

Hi Rick

I am already using that sort of expression pane. What I was meaning is, can that sort of behaviour transcend to the view window (I don't know if it is called that or not, the window that shows the album thumbnails and or tracks), whilst there aren't any selections in any panes.

Keeping in mind I use the following expression to group my view
Replace([Album Artist], ;,/ & ) | [Year] | [Album]   Mid(★★★★★,0,[{Album Rating}])If(IsEqual(Right([{Album Rating}],2),.5),☆,)   [Publisher] if(isempty([Publishers]),,| [Publishers] )if(isempty([Catalog #]),,| [Catalog #])

Say for instance I have Artist B and Artist T and they have many albums that they have done completely by themselves but there is one they did together Album Z, and I am just scrolling through my library at B, and I see album Z, as it is tagged B;T.. Is there a way to make MC show the album twice, so when I get to letter T, I would see T;B (Album Artist tags reordered according to alphabetical list position as I am now looking at the collection of Artist T)

I'm unsure as whether this could be done using expressions in my groupby expression or if it would have to be built in to mc..

I am not really bothered about pushing for this, as I can still view the album under both artists if I make a selection on the album artists pane but was wondering if it is possible, I would be quite nifty for skimming through the collection, it would have the potential to cause the list to expand quite a bit if you have a large amount to multiple artist albums,this is why I think if it could be done an easy option to switch the behaviour on or off would be good..

Thanks Rick

Have a Nice New Year when it comes

[MrC]

I wasn't clear if this was the stock [Album Artist] field, or your own [Album Artists] field.  I think the later, but you mention them both, so it's unclear.

Either way, it might be worth getting your thoughts around essentially how panes and lists are created, since you're exploring the possibilities that MC has to offer.  If this is already clear, I apologize for pointing out the obvious.  It seems some of your questions are missing a basic premise of how database selection, filtering and sorting works... and this will cause your head to spin given the more advanced usage you're enjoying.

When you create a pane (and I'll focus on panes for now), you are creating a criteria for generating a list of items.  Consider an [Album] pane.  This instructs MC to obtain the list of all possible values from the Album field for all the tracks in the library (database).  It doesn't care how many items match any Album name - only the list of Albums and the count of the list of Albums.  This list is then sorted based upon the sort order specified for this pane.  When you select an item in the pane, this forces MC to eliminate all things that no longer match the criteria, thus leaving you with (a generally reduced) list.  Or you can think of it as performing the selection again against the database, thus providing a new (generally reduced) list.

Subsequent panes continue or build upon this filtering process, further restricting the results.

What's important to recognize is that your panes (or thumbnail selections) don't drive how the view is defined or organized; rather, it is the definition of the view that drives how MC selects and presents the lists discussed above.  So your [Album Artists] field that so happens to contain a value of two items in a list field, won't magically alter subsequent panes or file lists to duplicate an Album, or re-order the contents of some given field.

What you want to be thinking is: given a list of returned unique values for a pane (from a field, an expression, smartlist, etc.), how do you want to manipulate and present those values?

What you don't want to be thinking is: how does pane A (and any selections or field contents) affect the layout of pane B?

List fields when presented as a list, or string fields that you break into/convert to list items, simply become individual items within a list.  When you select one of them, the same process as described above occurs.  MC queries its database for all items that match the selected value in the pane, and this produces a list of files.  Changing the selection to something else that happens to also result in the same match can't cause MC to alter this behavior.

Getting to your question...

You can present your [Album Artists] list field as either a string, in which case it is treated as just a literal sequence of characters:

  4kuba
  4kuba;6tm Anon

or you can present it as a list, in which case the semicolon is used to split the string into components, and each is treated as an individual item:

  4kuba
  6tm Anon

where selecting either will present items that include the selected artist.

When you select one of these, ALL items that match are "returned" from the query - you don't necessarily see this when your eyes focus on a subsequent Album pane or category , as MC has narrowed the results to unique entries for the pane or category.  For example, you might see only 1 Album name, but the file list presents all tracks.

Hope this helps, if not you, perhaps it will help some future reader.
 

[locust]

Hi MrC

Thanks

If this is already clear, I apologize for pointing out the obvious.

I'd like to think I've got a good understanding of how mc works but there is never any harm in being thorough, I do understand the filtering processes of panes..

So the database could never build a view and list two two albums twice, in an unfiltered view unless in was inherently built into how mc builds it database..

I can understand why is isn't done that way, it has the potential to over complicate the program for little benefit but is interesting none the less

Thanks

Happy New Year when it comes MrC

[MrC]

Coerce the expression to produce a LIST result as rick.ca mentions, and you'll get the results you desire - regardless of which [Album Artist] you select.

Happy New Year.

[rick.ca]

Keeping in mind I use the following expression to group my view...

Similar problem, similar solution...

You're grouping using Replace([Album Artist], ;,/ & )... which is a string. That will produce one and only one group for each value it produces. Grouping by an expression field [Album Artists] = [Album Artist]&DataType=[List] will result in joint albums appearing with each of participating artists. But the grouping will then be by Artist, not by Album. The problem now is the expression field is creating a list of Artists, and anything else added in the usual manner (e.g., [Released], [Album], etc.) is only added to the first item in the list.

I suggested a solution to this (in a different context) here. That is to use Replace() to replace the ';' in the list with the desired additional values, and then putting the ';' back to correctly delimit the list. Using '•' as before to temporarily replace ';', the solution here would be...

Replace(Replace([Album Artist], ;, •)•, •, / [Released] [Album];)&DataType=[List]

The attached screenshot illustrates the results. I don't have any "joint artist" albums, so I created two fake Aerosmith/Yes collaborations (with apologies to their respective fans), and restricted the view to those. As you can imagine from the grouping captions, each album will appear under both artists.

If you really wanted to do the same thing, but with the joint artist name in the grouping caption, you could use a more elaborate expression to do so. That would use ListItem() to get the individual artists separately from [Album Artist] and from 'A & B' add 'B & A' to the list.

[MrC]

It really is unfortunate that the &DataType=[list] conversion happens so early.  If it occurred after the expression evaluated, or could be forced to evaluate late, the duplicated Replace() would not be required.  Instead you'd be able to just replace ";" with "<stuff> ; <stuff>".

[edit: due to a gross misunderstanding on my part, the struck out text is gibberish.]

[locust]

Thank you Rick

Works perfectly  ,

Just to clarify, there is no way I can get the Album Thumbnails list style to display like this because there isn't any grouping for them. (Oh well suppose that is my easy way to switch the behaviour off, just switch the style to album thumbnails)

Just wondering why isn't there any grouping available for Album Thumbnails? You could potentially group it by album artist but with a twist if it could make it display more like thumbnail text.

You could have

[Album Artist]
If bio is not empty display bio
Thumbnail Images
separator

I hope someday we can control grouping via a search list pane, I think that would be useful...

Has anybody ever suggested having user specifiable macro toolbar buttons?? Then folks could record some of the more complex stuff that would never normally get a toolbar button of it's own..

I could then have two expressions to group my list by and have two toolbar buttons that play the recorded mouse movements and mouse clicks (maybe invisibly so that no menus are popping up..)

I think somebody who is good at mathematics would have to work on that one considering mc window dimensions change when resized etc, it would have to compensate co-ordinates in relation to window size or something..

anyway Thanks Rick

Happy New Year


Edit

How exactly could I use Listitem? I've had a little shot, can't figure it out right now will try again tomorrow..

[rick.ca]

It really is unfortunate that the &DataType=[list] conversion happens so early.

I don't think that's the issue. The problem is not having a ';' at the beginning or the end of the list to replace for the first or last term (depending on where you want to add the additional data). I only came up with this solution because I'm used to determining interim results, then putting the expression that does that inside another function—to continue building the final expression. It would work equally well to just add the additional data before or after the Replace() function, as well as within it. In this case,

Replace([Album Artist], ;, / [Released] [Album];)/ [Released] [Album]&DataType=[List]

I suppose if this is the solution one thinks of first, it makes more sense.

[rick.ca]

Just to clarify, there is no way I can get the Album Thumbnails list style to display like this because there isn't any grouping for them.

No, you can't do this with an Album Thumbnails style because then the determination of "album" is under program control. Understandably, it's only going to display one of each, and associate each with unique values of [Album Artist (auto)]. Your best solution to displaying joint and single artist album thumbnails is going to be using an expression pane—something like [Album Artist (auto)]&DataType=[List]. You have control over the sorting of the albums, but I suppose your one occurrence of a joint album is going to appear with the first artist listed by default. To show all albums an artist is associated with (i.e., including those for which it is listed second), you would select that artist in the pane. By using an expression that also includes joint album artists as 'A & B' and 'B & A', those will appear in the pane list adjacent to artists 'A' and 'B' and therefore be easy to spot and select...

How exactly could I use Listitem?

I assume 'B & A' could be created with ListItem([Album Artist], 1] & ListItem([Album Artist], 0], but that doesn't seem to work—it only evaluates the first term. If that's the case (I may be missing something), then I suppose you would have to create expression fields for [Artist.0] and [Artist.1] and then use those.

[Edit:] Oops. My tired eyes/brain could not see I had used square rather than round brackets... 

ListItem([Album Artist], 1) & ListItem([Album Artist], 0)

...works fine.

[locust]

Seems rather complicated I'll have a go anyway.. Some albums I have are a collaboration between 3 and I even think there is one with 4 artists there, I don't know how I'd conquer that one unless I could make a loop for the grouping expression..

Thanks

[MrC]

I don't think that's the issue. The problem is not having a ';' at the beginning or the end of the list to replace for the first or last term (depending on ...

I entirely misunderstood the issue, now see what's going on.  Thanks!

So, here's a much easier way.  Just tack a trailing semicolon to the end of the To-Be-Replaced text:

   Replace([Album Artist];, ;, <stuff1> <stuff2>;)&DataType=[list]

Thanks for cleaning out my cobwebs.

[MrC]

Is this what you wanted (showing a general means of rearranging):

  ListItem([Artist Artist], 2, &) && ListItem([Artist Artist], 1, &) && ListItem([Artist Artist], 0, &)

I used double ampersands so you can see this easily in the output and differentiate the listitem delimiter from the new output.

[locust]

Thanks MrC, I'll try that way as well

[rick.ca]

Thanks for cleaning out my cobwebs.

Thanks for cleaning out mine. I suppose a natural consequence of my trial & error approach to building expressions is stopping when I find something that works. Unfortunately, the result is not always the best or most sensible solution.

ListItem([Artist Artist], 2, &) && ListItem([Artist Artist], 1, &) && ListItem([Artist Artist], 0, &)

I believe his [Album Artist] data is semicolon-delimited, which is replaced with ' & ' for display purposes.

The expression in my corrected post above will handle the two-artist case. To handle three or more artists, I suppose ListCount() could be used to determine the number, then the terms to include in a list defined explicitly for each case. For example, for three artists (i.e., ListCount([Album Artist])=2)...

ListItem([Album Artist], 0), ListItem([Album Artist], 1) & ListItem([Album Artist], 2);
ListItem([Album Artist], 1), ListItem([Album Artist], 0) & ListItem([Album Artist], 2);
ListItem([Album Artist], 2), ListItem([Album Artist], 0) & ListItem([Album Artist], 1)

What's required is there be a term for each artist to appear first. There's probably a more systematic way to do that, but I can't think of it. A more simplistic approach would be to list each artist first, followed by all the artists together. That is, for example, "Artist1 (Artist0 & Artist1 & Artist2)." Such terms could be created using...

If(Compare(ListCount([Album Artist]), >, 2), ListItem([Album Artist], 2) /(Replace([Album Artist], ;, / & )/), )

...and a complete list (for up to five artists) would be...

Replace([Album Artist], ;, / & );
If(Compare(ListCount([Album Artist]), >, 1), ListItem([Album Artist], 1) & ListItem([Album Artist], 0);
If(Compare(ListCount([Album Artist]), >, 2), ListItem([Album Artist], 2) /(Replace([Album Artist], ;, / & )/), );
If(Compare(ListCount([Album Artist]), >, 3), ListItem([Album Artist], 3) /(Replace([Album Artist], ;, / & )/), );
If(Compare(ListCount([Album Artist]), >, 4), ListItem([Album Artist], 4) /(Replace([Album Artist], ;, / & )/), )

Complicated? Yes. It's enough to keep me "old school." If two or more artist collaborate, then there must be a "lead" [Artist], with the others [Featuring] on tracks or an entire album. If that grossly misrepresents the situation, then the collaboration must be a new "band," and that must be the [Artist]—even if it's a temporary creation. In this case, the participating artists can be recorded in [Members], an Artist-related list field. [Members] can then be used to find the collaborations of a particular individual artist, or it can be combined with [Artist] to list all the albums an artist has produced or collaborated on, as well as any multiple-artist albums that include the artist's tracks. An example of this is The Travelling Wilburys. One could argue that is not and never was a "real" band, but it's a more effective way to refer to the collaboration than "Bob Dylan & George Harrison & Jeff Lynne & Tom Petty & Roy Orbison."

[locust]

Sounds rather complicated indeed..

I think I may stick to the more simple solution for now. And to compensate not seeing other artists names, I will create a custom expression column and  and use Replace([Album Artist], ;,/ & ) in it, this way I can still see the other artists and I don't have to worry about lead artist and so on...

Thanks for both of your input

[locust]

Hi I am in need of your help again

I've came across a glitch, that I need some help ironing out...

In the image I have my Album Artists pane that uses the expression

[Album Artist]&datatype=[list]

When I select the artist Darqwan (I only have one ep but it is a collab between him and Loefah.) two entries of the same disk appear even though I have selected Darqwan in my album artists pane..

is there any way to make the selection of my album artist pane function exclusively to the artist that I have chosen??




Thanks[/list]

[rick.ca]

is there any way to make the selection of my album artist pane function exclusively to the artist that I have chosen?

Sure. Don't group using a list. You can't have it both ways.

[locust]

Thanks Rick

That's a shame.. I think I'll revert, pane functionality is much more important to me than scrolling through the list...

Just wondering theoretically, what would it take to have it both ways?

[rick.ca]

Just wondering theoretically, what would it take to have it both ways?

Theoretically? Learn how to simultaneously exist as one consciousness in parallel universes. Or be patient and wait for JRiver's much-anticipated 4-D UI.

[locust]

lol, would one MC licence cover that, or would I need two??

I always thought, the way they called films "3d" was stupid because they are actually 4d when you watch them, nothing really is 3d because time never stops... Even if you could pause a moment, it would kind of work like how an audio sample rate works, you can get more and more precise slices but you'll never reach perfection.

Edit
What I said is silly, because that implies it isn't 4-d either and that everything should be described as 10-d (10-d would get old quick)

Edit again,

This is the best video I've seen on 11-d, made me understand it so easily..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY_ZgAvXsuw

[rick.ca]

would one MC licence cover that, or would I need two?

I'm quite sure all versions of Jim will tell you licenses are only valid for one universe. But it's unclear how this will be enforced in 4-D UI with a zones feature.