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Author Topic: From Track Gain to Album Gain  (Read 5386 times)

Mbare

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From Track Gain to Album Gain
« on: January 08, 2012, 08:58:21 am »

I have a collection of FLAC-files that have been ripped with dBPowerAmp and tagged according to standards. During the ripping process I also calculated Album Gain and Album Peak and wrote that info to tags. I didn't calculate Track Gain and Peak 'cause I wasn't going to use it. I recently moved from a Squeezebox-solution (where Album Gain worked) to MC and found out that Album Gain ain't working no more.

Reading on the forum, I get the idea that MC can't read Album Gain tags and that the way it works in MC is that Album Gain is based on Track Gain and calculated on the fly. So, I then tried to have dBPowerAmp set Track Gain (and Track Peak) values, which made it possible for me to use Track Gain in Volume Leveling; but not Album Gain - nothing happens when I ask MC to calculate Album Gain even though there now is Track Gain info (and that info is cleary read, since it works with setting Track Gain). What's the catch?, is basically what I'm wondering about.

For those people who possibly wonder why I don't just analyze all my files with MC and then get everything I want, the reason is a bit strange: here where I come from (Norway) we're allowed to share files (like music) between close friends. So my music server is synced with the music server of a close friend of mine, and hence we have the same files and tags. If I start analyzing all my audio with MC it means we'll have to sync everything on our servers (again) - and that took forever and a day last time. But, this friend of mine has a licensed dBPowerAmp (but not MC), so if we can both set our servers to calculate Track Gain and Track Peak we will end up with the same data and no need for sync'ing.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 03:04:48 pm »

I'm just guessing but if you create the tags externally you need to update MC's database from the files. Use the "Update Library (from tags)" option. To do so, select all the files you want to use use, right click and select "Library Tools->Update Library (from tags)".

That may be it. As far as I know, the Album Gain is never stored in the db anywhere, but I could be wrong. It isn't visible if it is. You also may want to show the "Replay Gain" column. That is the field that must be filled for track based gain calculations to be used in MC and many other programs including iTunes etc.
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Mbare

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 03:44:58 pm »

Thanks for the answer.

What you're describing is excactly what I did as a test run: took one album, calculated Track Gain-tags for it (using dBPowerAmp), imported it into MC and then tried to play with Album Gain in MC. As I tried to say: the Track Gain works fine and those tags are obviously correctly imported into MC (since I can play with Track Gain on that album, but not on any other album that doesn't have Track Gain) - but they are not usable for getting Album Gain working and that's what I'm wondering about. :)
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gvanbrunt

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 06:04:41 pm »

Did you have it set for album gain under DSP Volume Leveling options? And just to be clear: you did update the library from tags after doing the calculations?

Edit:
Never mind the second question. I just re read your answer and you imported after doing the calculations so that doesn't matter.
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Mbare

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 12:29:45 am »

Yes, I had it set for Album Gain under Volume Leveling. As said: Track Gain works, Album Gain doesn't. After setting Track Gain with dBPowerAmp, Media Center reads those tags and are apparently capable of using them. If I do analyze audio of that one album with track gain, it shows up with Replay Gain in Analayze Audio. So everything seems to be in order, except for the one thing: it doesn't work. :)
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vagskal

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 02:25:10 am »

I get confused. You analysed just one album in your collection? What do you mean by album gain not working?

Find two albums that play at different volume level when played after another, analyse the files in those two albums for track gain and play them again in MC and see/hear if you notice any difference.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 07:07:15 am »

How do you know it is not working? It's pretty hard to tell go between albums as opposed to tracks being louder than one another.
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Mbare

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 11:39:15 am »

Under "Volume Leveling" in the DSP Menu you can choose between "Mode" and "Adjustment" as user-inputable fields. There is also a header called "Replay Gain" and a header called "Total Volume Change". I'm guessing (correctly, I hope) that the numbers under "Replay Gain" would change if the current "Mode" is working and that the sum total of attenuation is what would pop up in "Total Volume Change".

And, again correctly, this is what happens if I play an album where "Track Gain" has been added to the tags of the album (I did this via dBPowerAmp as I explained earlier) and I have "Mode" Track Based selected. Then I can see that both the numbers under "Replay Gain" and "Total Volume Change" differ, depending on what track is playing. In other words: Volume Leveling works as it should, as long as it's Track Mode and Media Center reads tags that set Track Gain for individual tracks if they are present in the files. But when I set "Mode" under Volume Leveling to Album Based, nothing happens - the volume doesn't change, the numbers doesn't change (the numbers are 0). And this happens when the album in question has Track Gain calculated AND Track Mode works.

My question is this: if the one album I have that have Track Gain tags (calculated from dBPowerAmp) works in Track Mode, why doesn't it work in Album Mode? How do Media Center calculate Album Mode and what does it need to do so? I thought the only thing it needed was Track Gain, but patently it ain't so (then it should have worked in Album Mode if it works in Track Mode).
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vagskal

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 01:13:09 pm »

Hmm. This is how I understand it. Track gain is used to play different tracks at roughly the same volume, i.e. the applied replay gain changes with track changes. Album gain is used to play different albums at roughly the same volume. When playing an album using album gain the volume differences the artist intended between the tracks in the album are retained, i.e. the applied replay gain will not switch with the track changes. Using album gain the applied replay gain will only change when a track from a different album is played.

In MC album gain is calculated as some sort of average of the track gain values for all tracks in the album.
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Mbare

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 03:10:24 pm »

Vagskal: that's how I understand it too and also the reason for why I want album gain and not track gain. I also thought that Media Center made album gain based on some sort of average of track gain, but that doesn't seem to be the whole equation. And I'm looking for the missing link, so I can get album gain without using the Analyze Audio-feature of Media Center.
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vagskal

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 04:17:31 pm »

My point was that you must have more than one album with replay gain values for playback in album gain mode to make sense. I have no idea how MC behaves with album gain mode when only one album in the library has such values (but your report indicates that MC is smart enough to realise that applying replay gain in this case does not make sense).

See my first post in this thread for a way to check that album gain is working.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 04:27:36 pm »

Quote
See my first post in this thread for a way to check that album gain is working.

Or to make that even easier. Record or edit some new track with a very noticeable difference in level. Use that for comparison. If they play back relatively the same, then it is working...
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Alex B

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 05:10:07 pm »

I have a collection of FLAC-files that have been ripped with dBPowerAmp and tagged according to standards. During the ripping process I also calculated Album Gain and Album Peak and wrote that info to tags. I didn't calculate Track Gain and Peak 'cause I wasn't going to use it. I recently moved from a Squeezebox-solution (where Album Gain worked) to MC and found out that Album Gain ain't working no more.

You could have applied both. The processing speed would have been the same and the files would have been more compatible with various Replay Gain implementations (including MC).

Quote
Reading on the forum, I get the idea that MC can't read Album Gain tags and that the way it works in MC is that Album Gain is based on Track Gain and calculated on the fly. So, I then tried to have dBPowerAmp set Track Gain (and Track Peak) values, which made it possible for me to use Track Gain in Volume Leveling; but not Album Gain - nothing happens when I ask MC to calculate Album Gain even though there now is Track Gain info (and that info is cleary read, since it works with setting Track Gain). What's the catch?, is basically what I'm wondering about.

Contrary to what was said in one of the replies, MC has an Album Gain field. MC uses the track gain values when it populates the field. A so called "Album Analyzer" is responsible of this task. You can add the Album Gain field as a column to a list view or to Action Window > Tag to see if it is populated.

It is a bit tricky to force MC to populate the album gain value in already imported files without running the "Analyze Audio" tool (as you don't want to change the file tags). Just using the "Update library (from tags)" tool does not trigger the album gain calculation process even when the new track gain values are imported. You have a few options:

- You can run the "Analyze Audio" tool without changing the physical files when tagging is disabled in Options > General > Importing & Tagging > Update tags when file info changes (uncheck). MC will then store the calculated values only in its database. To make using this option easier you can add a toolbar button for enabling and disabling it (the button has a visual indicator that shows the status. Yellow color means that tagging is enabled.)

- You can temporarily change the "Album" or "Track #" tags. For example: disable file tagging, select all files, change all track numbers to 1, and finally do "undo" (Ctrl+Z). The album gain values will be added if the track Replay Gain values are present in the database (check the "Replay Gain" library field to verify this).

- You can move the files to a new base folder (outside MC) and import them as new files to MC (you may not prefer to do this because you would lose all statistical data).

Quote
For those people who possibly wonder why I don't just analyze all my files with MC and then get everything I want, the reason is a bit strange: here where I come from (Norway) we're allowed to share files (like music) between close friends. So my music server is synced with the music server of a close friend of mine, and hence we have the same files and tags. If I start analyzing all my audio with MC it means we'll have to sync everything on our servers (again) - and that took forever and a day last time. But, this friend of mine has a licensed dBPowerAmp (but not MC), so if we can both set our servers to calculate Track Gain and Track Peak we will end up with the same data and no need for sync'ing.

I guess the "Update tags when file info changes" option (and its toolbar button) will be very useful for you.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 05:24:29 pm »

Quote
Contrary to what was said in one of the replies, MC has an Album Gain field

Wow, how could I have overlooked that? Been through the fields a thousand times before yet never noticed it. Obviously that is his problem.

Quote
To make using this option easier you can add a toolbar button for enabling and disabling it

Holy Shnikies Batman! How the heck have I overlooked that feature? I didn't know you could customize the toolbar (as it only has a menu by default and never looked). That will prove most useful to me.

There is so much to MC I'm still constantly learning 10 years later... :)
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Alex B

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 05:51:22 pm »

Yeah, the toolbar buttons are very useful. Here is what I currently have on my top toolbar:


Click to enlarge.


(Right-click the top or bottom toolbar to configure.)
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Mbare

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Re: From Track Gain to Album Gain
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 04:12:57 pm »

Alex B: Thanks, you just solved my little problem. :)
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