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[strategis]

Hello fellow MC-users,

I am using MC 17 in a multi-amping setup, for audiophile purposes.  In output format I choose 7.1 channels output and JRSS 2.0 surround upmix.

This signal is sent to a Motu Ultralite Hybrid audio device, which has 8 channel output.   The Motu software makes it possible to apply low-pass, high-pass, bandpass, etc  filters to each channel. You can do this realtime, which is real cool. It is a complete (inter)active cross-over /  equalizer solution, entirely in the digital domain. I also experimented with convolver files for each speaker with REW, but find the results not convincing.

I (mis)use this to drive a multi-amping system with 8 speakers.  However the signal sent to the 8 channels is not the pure stereo signal, but the JRSS signal, including subwoofer and such.  I would like the stereo-signal to be multiplied to the other channels, resulting in 4 indentical stereo signals. From there on I can manipulate each signal to be suitable for each speaker. For the record: my loudspeakers are not in a surround configuration, but in a stereo setup.


The question is: is there a way to achieve this with the current MC17 ?   If not wouldn't it be a good idea to add the option to to the output format options?

Greetings,

Robin

[Scolex]

You can by adding mix filters in DSP>Parametric Equalizer.

[strategis]

Thanks ! That did the trick

[jacqlan111]

Hello fellow MC-users,

I am using MC 17 in a multi-amping setup, for audiophile purposes.  In output format I choose 7.1 channels output and JRSS 2.0 surround upmix.

This signal is sent to a Motu Ultralite Hybrid audio device, which has 8 channel output.   The Motu software makes it possible to apply low-pass, high-pass, bandpass, etc  filters to each channel. You can do this realtime, which is real cool. It is a complete (inter)active cross-over /  equalizer solution, entirely in the digital domain. I also experimented with convolver files for each speaker with REW, but find the results not convincing.

You're in where i am, for stereo hifi music only.  I use a Motu 828mk3 for multiamp filters.  However i want to use someting else for filtering sub-LF-mids and HF.  The Motu soft is very good, slopes, Hpass, Lpass everything but DACs.
I'm going to try 3 DACs like the Bel Canto DAC3 that I'm using only for mids actually.

You said that the convolvers didn't worked out as well as the Motu active filters.  This is bad because i was looking to go this way !!!
I need to know if JRiver can split the signal into four frequency bands and feed a multi-dac or three separate dacs.  I almost bought a REM  HDSP AES-32  to feed those external DACs.  I must be sure I could drive perfect signals from convolverVST before.  Which is the best way?
Do I need a  multi-output interface in the PC to bring it toward these DACs?  Is a single USB cable can do it?
Thanks guys

[Matt]

Multiple DACs won't work well.  There's no way to synchronize them perfectly.

Instead, get a good multi-channel soundcard / DAC.

[jacqlan111]

Multiple DACs won't work well.  There's no way to synchronize them perfectly.

Instead, get a good multi-channel soundcard / DAC.

Thanks Matt for this warning.  You're right, I had this in mind too.  Maybe a RME multi digital sound card could synchronise all dacs?
In fact I just ordered a multi 8ch DAC to avoid this.

I'm getting pieces in place.  I want to get rid off of my Motu 828mk3 who's doing Xovers, and drive the new 8ch DAC directly from JRiver.  Than I will need to separate the 8 channels before with audiophile quality X-overs  .  You see what is coming?
I have used the REW's EQ to test one X-over filter and it worked well by imported it as a REW filter WAV file in the JRiver convolution option.
I would need to do it 4 times at different spectrum.
At this point I really would like to know if it is possible to dispatch 4 WAV files to 4 pairs of spks in JRiver output?
I am stuck there.

[Matt]

At this point I really would like to know if it is possible to dispatch 4 WAV files to 4 pairs of spks in JRiver output?
I am stuck there.

How many actual speakers do you have, and how many discrete lines does each speaker accept?

If you have 8 outputs from the computer, you can accomplish just about any mix or cross-over configuration possible on those 8 lines.  DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer > Mix Channels is what you use to move channels around.  Then add cross-overs as necessary.

[jacqlan111]

How many actual speakers do you have, and how many discrete lines does each speaker accept?

Hi Matt
I have 7 speakers for stereo audio, (1 sub and 2 woofers, 2 mids and 2 tweeters) They are free for adjustment.(DIY open baffle on mids-tweeters).  Each pair has his poweramp and I'm waiting for my 8ch dac to be deliver.

If you have 8 outputs from the computer, you can accomplish just about any mix or cross-over configuration possible on those 8 lines.

That is what I understood so far in my research.  I have read your discussions on convolvers "Topic: Native JRiver 64bit fp convolution engine for Room Correction (FIR filters)?"  I must admit that participants are a lot more experienced people than me and I did not understood everything.  Some are using Audiolense, acourate or ConvolverVST.  I wanted to use REW that I actually uses for free.  It's not that I don't want to pay for software but I find REW quite good for measurements and filters.  

DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer > Mix Channels is what you use to move channels around.  Then add cross-overs as necessary.

This is the tricky part.  I just made one test WAV file from REW for X-over to be opened in JRIver.
My concern is will I be able to open 4 WAV x-over files in parallel?  Maybe because I actually don't have a multi ch DAC connected is the reason why I do not see this option?

I don't have enough experiences with JRiver to  navigate easily in it.

Is there a step by step post that you remember that I could refer to?

My connection with JRiver to 8ch DAC would be a USB cable.  Is that right?

Thanks again
jacques

[mojave]

You would probably want to set the Output Format DSP to 2.1. However, it looks like that only opens up 6 channels. For your situation it looks like 8 channels should be opened up and one will be unused. Maybe Matt can make a change that will allow 8 channels with 2.1. This is only necessary if you have a 5.1 or 7.1 source, but need it played back on a 2.1 system which is what you have.

If you have a stereo source you can set Output Format to 7.1, but set mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing." Now you will have 8 channels, but the original signal will go to channels 1 and 2. Now use the Parametric Equalizer and Mix Channels to copy your channels to the other channels. I would do the following steps.

Use the Room Correction DSP to create the crossover for the subwoofer by adding the crossover for the left and right channels. This will add info to channel 4 for the subwoofer.

Move Parametric Equalizer so it is after Room Correction. Use Mix Channels to make these changes:

Move Right to Surround Left
Copy Surround Left to Surround Right
Copy Surround Left to Rear Left

Copy Left to Right
Copy Left to Center

Now channels 1, 2,  & 3 (L,R,C) have the left channel information and channels 5,6, & 7 (SL, SR, RL) have the right channel information. Channel 4 (Sub) will have the subwoofer information. You will connect channel 1 to the left channel woofer, channel 2 to the left channel mid, and channel 3 to the left channel tweeter. Do the same with 5-7 for the right channel. You will also have to use the gain setting for each mix channels so that the woofer, mid, and tweeter are all playing at the same level.

Now you can use REW to generate a convolution file which you can load into the Convolution DSP in JRiver. You can only load one file, so you may need a way to combine all files or else create a convolver text configuration file. I don't have any experience in this area.

If you would rather just create crossovers in JRiver you can do that easily enough. Still using Parametric Equalizer you can add high pass and low pass filters to each channel. If your woofer crosses to the mid at 800 Hz and the mid crosses to the tweeter at 3000 Hz you can a low pass filter to channels L and SL (woofers) at 800 Hz with whatever slope you want. Then add high pass filter to channels R and SR (mids) at 800 Hz and a low pass to channels R and SR (mids) at 3000 Hz. Finally, add a high pass at 3000 Hz to channels C & RL (tweeters).

You can use the new loopback feature in JRiver to measure with REW and adjust the crossover frequencies and slopes by using a close mic on one of the speakers. Once can also have REW generate some filters to smooth the response.

Once you get the crossovers adjusted how you want you can use REW to measure the room from the listening position and you can add more filters using Parametric Equalizer 2.

[Matt]

Maybe Matt can make a change that will allow 8 channels with 2.1. This is only necessary if you have a 5.1 or 7.1 source, but need it played back on a 2.1 system which is what you have.

I think we need to make a way to select a number of output channels and a number of mixing channels independently.  I'm still trying to figure out how to do the user interface.

[jacqlan111]

I think we need to make a way to select a number of output channels and a number of mixing channels independently.  I'm still trying to figure out how to do the user interface.

Thank you  mojave .
As I see, Matt won't stop to get busy.

I am very grateful for your answer professor mojave.  Whitout these informations I don't know if I could made it.
"Now you can use REW to generate a convolution file which you can load into the Convolution DSP in JRiver. You can only load one file, so you may need a way to combine all files or else create a convolver text configuration file. I don't have any experience in this area.
"
So just one file can be loaded. For the separation of all channels, I don't see how one file can make it. I will try then the JRiver's EQ for making my X-Overs like you have suggested.  Is this parametric EQ can do tight corrections with a small % octave?  

At the end, this JRiver complicated configuration have to be saved.  Is there a way to protect the tweeters for a software error or something like that?  Sure I will do testings, but in real life time , is it safe?

[mojave]

I think we need to make a way to select a number of output channels and a number of mixing channels independently.  I'm still trying to figure out how to do the user interface.

The ability to rename the channels would also be helpful. As you can see above calling the Left woofer, Left Mid, and Left Tweeter the L, R, and C can get confusing. Fortunately I thrive on confusion.  

Is this parametric EQ can do tight corrections with a small % octave?

Yes, the Q entry is what determines how the bandwidth of the filter. The higher the Q number the smaller the % octave.

At the end, this JRiver complicated configuration have to be saved.  Is there a way to protect the tweeters for a software error or something like that?  Sure I will do testings, but in real life time , is it safe?

If you have adjusted your levels properly it is safe. I would also recommend turning on volume protection.

[jacqlan111]

If you have adjusted your levels properly it is safe. I would also recommend turning on volume protection.

Yes, all protection must be taken until everything runs safe, including levels.
I was more worried about tweeters for lower frequencies to be introduced.  They won't like it at all, I damaged an expensive one two months ago, just by a little mistake in the Motu's EQ on/off switch.

[jacqlan111]

Hi mojave
I have configured, JR following your instructions.  I'm just setting JR to be ready for my e18 (not yet arrived) Just to be sure, there is something I don't get.  If you could revise the path of commands.

If you have a stereo source you can set Output Format to 7.1, but set mixing to "No upmixing or downmixing." Now you will have 8 channels, but the original signal will go to channels 1 and 2. Now use the Parametric Equalizer and Mix Channels to copy your channels to the other channels. I would do the following steps.

Use the Room Correction DSP to create the crossover for the subwoofer by adding the crossover for the left and right channels. This will add info to channel 4 for the subwoofer.

since ch1-2 have the original signal, do you mean to add sub x-over values (40hz), I follow the rest but this subwoofer part, I can't say that I get it clear.
I've added comments (blue), it's the right and left x-over that mix me up.

Move Parametric Equalizer so it is after Room Correction. Use Mix Channels to make these changes:

Move Right to Surround Left (SL will become right woofer, original signal)
Copy Surround Left to Surround Right (SR will become right mids, original signal)
Copy Surround Left to Rear Left (RL will become right tweeter original signal)


Copy Left to Right brings back original signal to Right
Copy Left to Center same to center

Now channels 1, 2,  & 3 (L,R,C) have the left channel information and channels 5,6, & 7 (SL, SR, RL) have the right channel information. Channel 4 (Sub) will have the subwoofer information. You will connect channel 1 to the left channel woofer, channel 2 to the left channel mid, and channel 3 to the left channel tweeter. Do the same with 5-7 for the right channel. You will also have to use the gain setting for each mix channels so that the woofer, mid, and tweeter are all playing at the same level.

For the crossovers in JRiver I feel safe enough.

[mojave]

There are two ways to "create" the subwoofer channel. You can use the Parametric EQ DSP with Mix Channels and add the left and right channels to channel 4. You can then put a low pass on channel 4 and high pass the woofers if you don't want the woofers and subwoofer to play the same low frequencies. If you use this method you need to adjust the gain of the combined channels so that the subwoofer signal is at the same relative level. This method is basically the same as you would have used to split up the woofer, mid, and tweeter.

The way I suggested earlier is to put the Room Correction DSP before the Parametric EQ DSP. When the signal goes through Room Correction it is still the original full range left and right signals on channels 1 and 2. The Room Correction DSP has bass management so you can set a crossover such as 40 Hz for both the left and right channel. You can specify whether to just copy the bass or move the bass to the subwoofer. If you copy the bass, the low pass will be applied to the sub and there will be no high pass on the mains. If you move the bass, the sub will get a low pass and the mains (still just channels 1 and 2) will get a high pass. The top slope in Room Correction is the high pass and the bottom slope is the low pass. By using the bass management in Room Correction you can more quickly change your crossover setting and the bass is automatically set to the correct output levels. It will also correctly combine the bass from the mains with the LFE channel if you have a 5.1 soundtrack that you are downmixing. It is harder to get this right if you do it manually in Parametric EQ.

Copy Left to Right brings back original signal to Right
Copy Left to Center same to center

To be consistent with the right speaker, the Left becomes Left woofer, the Right becomes the left mid, and the Center becomes the right left tweeter. You end up with this:

Left Woofer
Left Mid
Left Tweeter
Subwoofer
Right Woofer
Right Mid
Right Tweeter

[jacqlan111]

Well this is great mojave
thanks again for your time helping me.  Now I can understand your first method.  Several details to learn, "c'est peu dire".

There are two ways to "create" the subwoofer channel. You can use the Parametric EQ DSP with Mix Channels and add the left and right channels to channel 4. You can then put a low pass on channel 4 and high pass the woofers if you don't want the woofers and subwoofer to play the same low frequencies. If you use this method you need to adjust the gain of the combined channels so that the subwoofer signal is at the same relative level. This method is basically the same as you would have used to split up the woofer, mid, and tweeter.

I will applied this upper method because I don't want any automatic corrections to be made.  I have actually worked a lot on mixing and EQ sub and woofers for a perfect LF hifi reproduction.  The acoustic bass instrument has to be recognized from the electric one.  These are my reference instruments for judging LF corrections.  It is a different world than theater.

The way I suggested earlier is to put the Room Correction DSP before the Parametric EQ DSP. When the signal goes through Room Correction it is still the original full range left and right signals on channels 1 and 2. The Room Correction DSP has bass management so you can set a crossover such as 40 Hz for both the left and right channel. You can specify whether to just copy the bass or move the bass to the subwoofer. If you copy the bass, the low pass will be applied to the sub and there will be no high pass on the mains. If you move the bass, the sub will get a low pass and the mains (still just channels 1 and 2) will get a high pass. The top slope in Room Correction is the high pass and the bottom slope is the low pass. By using the bass management in Room Correction you can more quickly change your crossover setting and the bass is automatically set to the correct output levels. It will also correctly combine the bass from the mains with the LFE channel if you have a 5.1 soundtrack that you are downmixing. It is harder to get this right if you do it manually in Parametric EQ.

To be consistent with the right speaker, the Left becomes Left woofer, the Right becomes the left mid, and the Center becomes the right left tweeter. You end up with this:

Left Woofer
Left Mid
Left Tweeter
Subwoofer
Right Woofer
Right Mid
Right Tweeter

[BayensF]

Thanks ! That did the trick

Hi all,

I also want multichannel stereo to work. What I have achieved so far is build in ASUS SONAR D2X settings;

ASIO, Offset= "0", Channel Swap = "none", and in DSP studio for audio path;

32 bit(yes no need to set it as ASIO should take care, but it did not so you have to set it), 5.1 (yes it's a 7.1 card but I need only 6 channels at the end), no up- or down mixing, and in DSP for PEQ;

ADD Center to Left
ADD Center to Right
COPY L to SL
COPY R to SR
COPY L to Center
COPY R to Sub

TO MC DEVELOPMENT TEAM > IT COULD HELP US IF WE HAVE A POSSIBILITY THAT WE CAN SET 6- OR 8- CHANNELS IN THE CHANNELS SETTING THAT AUTOMATICALLY GIVES THE NUMBER OF STEREO CHANNELS (2x3 or 2x4) NEEDED TO SEND TO A CROSSOVER (PEQ)

The first two routing's make sure that when playing (movie) files with "center" it send to both channels
The other 4 routing's will make sure all channels have the full bandwith.

So far it works for all files I have played, FLAC, AC3, PCM Stereo, PCM 5.1....

Impressive sound! I had a Juli@ before that was by some seen as a reference, this ASUS is at least at the same level...but for 8ch in stead of only 2.

I have build a 6 ch amplifier, and a 3 way speaker (using an old 3 way filter today)  so now it's time for setting crossover in MC.
 Update;
I have done the crossover and it's working great. I will start another topic soon to explain it a bit more.