Topic: jriver 7.1 ? (Read 9807 times)

pierdzik · « **on:** March 01, 2012, 08:54:08 pm »

I am using jriver with asio, and can not output 7.1 tracks as 8 discrete channels. 8 channels tracs are going in to 6 channels. JRSS is off.
MPCHC with wasapi has no problem with that. Is this a bug or I am doing a wrong setup?. Please Help!
RME fireface 800 sound card

Greets.

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:27:16 pm »

Did you select 7.1 in DSP Studio > Output Format?

What shows in the Audio Path for the output format when playing with 7.1 selected?

pierdzik · « **Reply #2 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:17:37 pm »

on german version of toystory 3 bluray box we have folowing spec.

AUDIO:

DTS-HD 7.1 Deutsch/Englisch
DTS-HD 5.1 English
DTS 5.1 Deutsch
Dolby Digital 5.1 EX Polnisch/Turkisch

then in jriver we have 6 tracks:

English dts-hd ma, 48000Hz 5.1, 1536 kb/s
English dts-hd ma, 48000Hz 5.1, 1536 kb/s
German dts-hd hra, 48000Hz 5.1, 1536 kb/s
German dts, 48000Hz 5.1, 768 kb/s
Polish ac3, 48000Hz 5.1, 640 kb/s
Turkish ac3, 48000Hz 5.1, 640 kb/s

My audio path for the first track is:

in - 48kHz 32bit 6ch
changes - convert foom 6 channels to 8 channels
out - 48kHz 32bit 8ch using ASIO

I would be grateful if somebody could explain how this audio decoder is acting.
My impression is that we are very far from a proper decoding of 6, 7 or 8 discrete channels.
In this case DTS-HD 7.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 EX are decoded into 6ch with is completely wrong!

Cheers

glynor · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:21:07 pm »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 01, 2012, 11:17:37 pm

I would be grateful if somebody could explain how this audio decoder is acting.
My impression is that we are very far from a proper decoding of 6, 7 or 8 discrete channels.
In this case DTS-HD 7.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 EX are decoded into 6ch with is completely wrong!

You didn't answer this, and it is the most important thing Matt asked:

Quote from: Matt on March 01, 2012, 10:27:16 pm

Did you select 7.1 in DSP Studio > Output Format?

If you have 5.1 selected there, it will decode to 5.1 (unless you are bitstreaming to a receiver via HDMI, then it would still pass the DTS-MA through unmolested).

pierdzik · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:30:09 pm »

I don't use a receiver, I want to decode directly to active speakers.
In dsp studio I am on 7.1ch and up or downmixing is disabled.

BryanC · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:57:44 pm »

You will need the arcsoft dtsdecoderdll in your lav or system folder to enable DTS-HD decoding. It sounds like JRiver might be using the DTS stream in lieu of it.

glynor · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2012, 12:05:19 am »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 01, 2012, 11:30:09 pm

I don't use a receiver, I want to decode directly to active speakers.
In dsp studio I am on 7.1ch and up or downmixing is disabled.

Okay, that's good.

And what do you have your Video Mode set to? Be sure to try one of the two Red October modes, and make sure Bitstreaming is set to none. You said you had upmixing disabled, right? And, just to check, what is Options -> Audio -> Output Mode set to? (ASIO or one of the WASAPIs is what you want.)

Lastly, to decode DTS-MA in LAV and Red October, you do need to find a third party DTS decoder (dtsdecoderdll.dll) and put it in your system path directory. Have you done this?

EDIT: I see Bryan covered that. It is easiest with MC and Red October to copy the dll into your system path. Otherwise MC removes it when it updates to a new version of Red October, I think. You should also be able to put it in MC's folder itself (right next to the Media Center 17.exe file). LAV follows this search path to find the DLL. The "executable module for the current process" is MC itself. But I haven't tried this myself. Mine is in my C:\Windows\SysWOW64 folder.

Assuming you have done all of that, and your settings are right...

If you select the first of those two listed DTS tracks (either English or German, depending on what you want I suppose), does sound come out of your rear or front high speakers?

I suppose it could be just that the decoder is reading the info about the streams wrong. I don't have a 7.1 system here, so I don't know how it looks in MC.

glynor · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2012, 12:06:41 am »

Quote from: Bryanhoop on March 01, 2012, 11:57:44 pm

It sounds like JRiver might be using the DTS stream in lieu of it.

Yeah. That's exactly what happens. If you don't have the DTS decoder DLL, LAV uses the regular DTS stream "shell" which it can decode on its own.

I just don't know if MC shows the right channels in the stream display or not. I have a few MKVs I've ripped with DTS-MA, but they're all 6-channel ones (or, at least, according to MediaInfo they are and I always just copy all of the audio streams over intact to my MKVs).

pierdzik · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2012, 12:47:40 am »

Thank you! the problem seems to be solved concerning 7.1 track with arcsoft decoder but DD ex is still 6ch.
Did you heard about proper dd ex software decoding solution?
My second question is why dtdma 7.1 and dtsma 5.1 streams in jriver have the same 1536 bitrate?

pierdzik · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2012, 11:18:16 am »

playing star wars bluray, jriver is displaying one of audio streams as:
English dts-es 48000Hz, 6.1ch, 768 kb/s, but this track is decoded into 6ch. which is not correct.
Finally, with your help, I figured out to decode properly 7.1 toy story track into 8ch by adding into jriver directory arcsoft decoder.
Maybe somebody could advise me how to decode 6.1 star wars track into 7 discrete channels?

Matt · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2012, 11:33:39 am »

Use JRSS to mix everything to the number of speakers you have (which sounds like 7.1).

I don't believe 6.1 output is really possible.

pierdzik · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2012, 12:16:14 pm »

with audio decoder implemented in jriver somebody knows what is happening with rear center channel of 6.1 track?
is this channel mixed into left end right sourround or it is missing complitley?

If i understand well, jriver decoder is somhow downmixing 6.1 into 5.1 than you advise me to mixup with jrss the downmixed track into 7.1?

I think it has nothing to do with the star wars sound rendered in cinema. ?

Matt · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2012, 02:01:38 pm »

6.1 can be nicely mixed to 5.1 or 7.1.

You just need to configure Media Center properly.

Pick the correct number of channels and be sure JRSS mixing is enabled in DSP Studio > Output Format.

pierdzik · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2012, 08:11:20 pm »

to my knowledge there is only one right method to decode DTS-ES 6.1 in home theater systems with a 7.1 configuration:
back-center-surround has to be sent in two rear speakers in mono.

upmixing downmixed signal is maybe nice to somebody but it destroys the orginal mix. it's pity.

it would be great if the developpers would have the ambition to create a full audio support for DTS-ES 6.1, DTS-ES matrix, Dolby Digital EX streams, not only downmixed for Home Theater 5.1 systems, but also correctly decoded for 7.1. Home Theater systems .

So for those like me who want to playback the original mix from DTS-ES 6.1 streams with their 7.1 system there is really no solution?

jrss can certainly simulate very well 7.1 from 5.1, but it has nothing to do with the orginal mix. It's like creating stereo from a mono signal. the real stereo is ten times better.

cheers

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2012, 08:36:19 pm »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 02, 2012, 08:11:20 pm

to my knowledge there is only one right method to decode DTS-ES 6.1 in home theater systems with a 7.1 configuration:
back-center-surround has to be sent in two rear speakers in mono.

upmixing downmixed signal is maybe nice to somebody but it destroys the orginal mix. it's pity

The signal will never be downmixed if you pick 7.1 channel output.

6.1 will come in and 7.1 will go out.

pierdzik · « **Reply #15 on:** March 02, 2012, 09:35:31 pm »

of course 7.1 channel output is selected.
when playing English dts-es 48000Hz, 6.1ch, 768 kb/s stream from star wars bluray the decoder is decoding only 6ch.
the signal is decoded into channel 1.2.3.4 and 7.8, nr. 5 and 6 are empty.

when jrss is enabled,
channels 1-4 are ok
I have identical track on channel 5 and 6, I can see it on my meters
nr 7 has a bit higher level then 5 and 6 and
nr. 8 is playing only from time to time.

To me this is not at all a right 6.1 decoding

some ideas?

pierdzik · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2012, 04:29:37 am »

in jriver 5.1 and 6.1 are mapped into 1,2,3,4,7,8 channel.

using mpchc with lav audio decoder it's going properly into 1,2,3,4,5 and I have a correct channel mapping when plying 6.1 stream. and no problem with 7.1 neither.

could we hope to have the same with jriver?

Matt · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2012, 08:23:59 am »

It sounds like you're not getting 7 channels from 6.1. I'm not sure why. Is it possible you don't have this configured:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray#Decoding_for_DTS-HD

Quote from: pierdzik on March 03, 2012, 04:29:37 am

in jriver 5.1 and 6.1 are mapped into 1,2,3,4,7,8 channel.

5.1 inside 7.1 should be mapped to 1,2,3,4,7,8.

Backs (which would be silent with no upmixing) come before surrounds in the ordering:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg463006

pierdzik · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2012, 02:38:28 am »

I finally got it !!!

right click on video - DirectShow Filters - LAV Audio Decoder - Expand 6.1 to 7.1 has to be on.

Than DTS-ES 6.1 is correctly panned. (back surround on back left No.5 and back right No.6 channel) jrss has to be off of course.

It took me hours because of a bug.

It is only working when jriver is starting with a default language witch has 6.1 stream.

When MC is starting with 5.1 stream and then you want to select 6.1, 6.1 is played like 5.1

The same story when you starting with 6.1 and you want to move back to 5.1 you can not get 6.1 again.

I hope it can be corrected.

cheers.

pierdzik · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2012, 06:54:56 am »

Another small bug?

in my 7.1 configuration, jriver is decoding surrounds channels from 5.1 streams to back channels. why?
In my mixer I can see them on channel 7 and 8. channel 5 and 6 are empty.

I have no problem with this in MPCHC, they are played on side surround channels 5 and 6 (same config: LAV filter with arcsoft decoder)

Matt · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2012, 09:49:47 am »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 04, 2012, 06:54:56 am

Another small bug?

in my 7.1 configuration, jriver is decoding surrounds channels from 5.1 streams to back channels. why?
In my mixer I can see them on channel 7 and 8. channel 5 and 6 are empty.

Please read my answer above:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70522.msg476044#msg476044

pierdzik · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2012, 12:21:45 pm »

thank you for this microsoft article.

as we know in jriver (LAV Filter with Arcsoft decoder) DTS-ES 6.1 back channel is mapped on No.5 and No.6 (BL and BR)

as we know in jriver (LAV Filter with Arcsoft decoder) dts and dolby digital surround channels are mapped on No.7 and No.8 (SL and SR)

I would ask about jriver (LAV Filter with Arcsoft decoder) 7.1 True HD and DTS-MA panning

is it like this?:

1 L
2 R
3 C
4 low
5 BL
6 BR
7 SL
8 SR

If it's like this all formats can be played with the same config. all we have to do is to connect rear speakers to out 5 and 6 and side speakers to out 7 and 8

that would be logic, could you please confirm jriver (LAV Filter with Arcsoft decoder) 7.1 mapping?

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2012, 12:30:30 pm »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 04, 2012, 12:21:45 pm

is it like this?:

1 L
2 R
3 C
4 low
5 BL
6 BR
7 SL
8 SR

That is correct, and it is how Media Center outputs 7.1.

All decoders and formats will use this mapping so there is nothing particular about LAV, DTS, etc.

pierdzik · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2012, 10:18:09 pm »

I understood. thank you.

pierdzik · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2012, 10:23:58 pm »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 04, 2012, 02:38:28 am

I finally got it !!!

right click on video - DirectShow Filters - LAV Audio Decoder - Expand 6.1 to 7.1 has to be on.

Than DTS-ES 6.1 is correctly panned. (back surround on back left No.5 and back right No.6 channel) jrss has to be off of course.

It took me hours because of a bug.

It is only working when jriver is starting with a default language witch has 6.1 stream.

When MC is starting with 5.1 stream and then you want to select 6.1, 6.1 is played like 5.1

The same story when you starting with 6.1 and you want to move back to 5.1 you can not get 6.1 again.

I hope it can be corrected.

cheers.

Did somebody noticed this behavior? it can be checked in audio path.

pierdzik · « **Reply #25 on:** March 05, 2012, 03:41:02 am »

Quote from: pierdzik on March 04, 2012, 02:38:28 am

I finally got it !!!

right click on video - DirectShow Filters - LAV Audio Decoder - Expand 6.1 to 7.1 has to be on.

Than DTS-ES 6.1 is correctly panned. (back surround on back left No.5 and back right No.6 channel) jrss has to be off of course.

It took me hours because of a bug.

It is only working when jriver is starting with a default language witch has 6.1 stream.

When MC is starting with 5.1 stream and then you want to select 6.1, 6.1 is played like 5.1

The same story when you starting with 6.1 and you want to move back to 5.1 you can not get 6.1 again.

I hope it can be corrected.

cheers.

it occurs only when 7.1 mode is selected.

this problem is disappearing when "source number of channels" is choosen in dsp studio.

strange

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #26 on:** March 06, 2012, 02:46:40 pm »

Quote from: Matt on March 04, 2012, 12:30:30 pm

That is correct, and it is how Media Center outputs 7.1.

All decoders and formats will use this mapping so there is nothing particular about LAV, DTS, etc.

Is it? In earlier threads I and others have reported some strange behaviour e.g. with LotR bluray 6.1 tracks played back with Output Format set to 7.1. I noticed very peculiar mixing in the back and rear channels, with almost nothing going on in at least one of the four back channels. I will need to go back to the research I did, but the soundscape was not correctly positioned in the back. Everything fell into place by setting LAV decoder to upmix 6.1 to 7.1.

Matt · « **Reply #27 on:** March 06, 2012, 04:46:46 pm »

In a coming build:
Fixed: JRSS mixing was incorrectly handling 6.1 in certain cases (it was assuming L R C LFE BC SL SR instead of reading the channel mask).

Thanks for your help finding the problem.

mojave · « **Reply #28 on:** March 06, 2012, 04:55:25 pm »

Now I have to rewatch Lord of the Rings. It's going to be a long night.

Matt · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2012, 05:07:16 pm »

LAV uses L R C LFE BL BR BC, and we expected L R C LFE BC SL SR.

My plan is to make us support both nicely, but I need to talk to nevcairiel a bit more before figuring out the best way to proceed.

pierdzik · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2012, 09:22:44 pm »

Quote from: Matt on March 06, 2012, 05:07:16 pm

LAV uses L R C LFE BL BR BC, and we expected L R C LFE BC SL SR.

this is the case when expand 6.1 to 7.1 is off in LAV audio settings.
otherwise it seems to be correct: L R C LFE BL BR SL SR.

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #31 on:** March 07, 2012, 08:18:25 am »

Quote from: Matt on March 06, 2012, 05:07:16 pm

LAV uses L R C LFE BL BR BC, and we expected L R C LFE BC SL SR.

My plan is to make us support both nicely, but I need to talk to nevcairiel a bit more before figuring out the best way to proceed.

Excellent. I remember the thread was quite long about a year ago on this, and a solution was not found at the time. If corrected in MC now, my last reason for having a separate LAV install is gone. Which is good, since I ned to keep track on the LAV fitler version in use for ROHQ.

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Author Topic: jriver 7.1 ? (Read 9807 times)