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[Matt]

We've seen a fair number of users that use .ISO files for their videos.

I believe .ISO is also common with SACD users.

We're trying to figure out how we might better support .ISO files in the program.

I can think of two approaches:

1) Create our own ISO reader (we have most the code in our burning engine)

This would require some cooperation with LAV on the video side, because a complex format like Blu-ray requires reading lots of files.  Somehow we would need to give LAV a way to create a reader for different individual files.

2) Support one or more of the most popular ISO mounting programs, and auto-mount / auto-dismount the ISO files when they're used

I'm not sure what the most popular programs are?  Are there any good, free solutions?  How would this work when multiple threads want to read different ISO files at the same time (like two zones each playing a different ISO)?


Thanks for any advice.

[bytestar]

Windows 8 have a native ISO Mounter, will there be supported from MC ?

[Hendrik]

1) is not really a viable solution, it would be way too complicated, especially considering that Blu-ray file opening isn't done by LAV itself, but by libbluray.
The effort seems to be way too high to support a minority of people that insist on storing files in an ISO instead of just unpacking that, considering its also only for one player.

That leaves 2, or 3 (build your own ISO mounter)

[babgvant]

Windows 8 have a native ISO Mounter, will there be supported from MC ?

I don't think this will support BD/HD-DVD formats

[babgvant]

2) Support one or more of the most popular ISO mounting programs, and auto-mount / auto-dismount the ISO files when they're used

I'm not sure what the most popular programs are?  Are there any good, free solutions?  How would this work when multiple threads want to read different ISO files at the same time (like two zones each playing a different ISO)?

I think this is the right approach. IMO, VirtualCloneDrive is the best and it's easy to mount/unmount ISO.

[babgvant]

The effort seems to be way too high to support a minority of people that insist on storing files in an ISO instead of just unpacking that, considering its also only for one player.

There are valid reasons for preferring ISO to BDMV.

Off the top of my head:

1) Not all SW BD players have historically supported BDMV (PDVD)
2) AnyDVD works on ISO, so you can use it to strip PUO.
3) 3D discs can only be ISO'd

Obviously 1+2 aren't concerns for MC users, but for those who are migrating to it or want to maintain maximum future flexibility there are valid considerations.

[Hendrik]

1) Not all SW BD players have historically supported BDMV (PDVD)

We live in the now (and soon in the future), the past is unlikely to come back.

2) AnyDVD works on ISO, so you can use it to strip PUO.

Can't you just do that when you rip it to ISO?

3) 3D discs can only be ISO'd

Not relevant, those don't work in MC anyway.

Anyway, all i'm saying is that supporting some sort of interface through which I can teach libbluray to open different files from some external virtual file system is a technical nightmare and the design sounds fragile at best.

[Sandy B Ridge]

There are valid reasons for preferring ISO to BDMV.

Off the top of my head:

1) Not all SW BD players have historically supported BDMV (PDVD)
2) AnyDVD works on ISO, so you can use it to strip PUO.
3) 3D discs can only be ISO'd

Obviously 1+2 aren't concerns for MC users, but for those who are migrating to it or want to maintain maximum future flexibility there are valid considerations.

Yes, indeed.

If someone would write a BluRay navigator with full menu/java support for MC then I'd be happy to change to BDMV folders.

[babgvant]

We live in the now (and soon in the future), the past is unlikely to come back.

1) There are quite a few PDVD 8 users who would disagree with you on that one.
2) Living in the now doesn't remove the affects of the past. In this case it's quite possible to have a large legacy library of ISOs even if you've "modernized" the approach to have no fear for the future.

Can't you just do that when you rip it to ISO?

I'm not aware of a way to make that permanent when ripping the disc. Could be a lack of effort on my part though

Not relevant, those don't work in MC anyway.

1) They don't play in 2D?
2) I hope they do some day.

[Hendrik]

1) They don't play in 2D?
2) I hope they do some day.

Depends on the disc if they play, some do, some don't.
Besides, for the discs that do play in 2D, copying the disc to some folder without a ISO also works.

Its doubtful at best that disc-based 3D playback will work without a commercial player in the next 2-3 years. After that time, my crystall ball is only foggy.
Same goes for full BD Menu support really. Its not a one-man task, but sadly no-one really wants to team up and get into that. Its actually quite a lot easier to do it in a standalone player, the custom DirectShow system is just a PITA in such situations.

Anyway, this is off-topic, i was just expressing my opinion on ISOs, which reflects onto my motivation to spend lots of time on them. :p

[babgvant]

Besides, for the discs that do play in 2D, copying the disc to some folder without a ISO also works.

Is that a limitation of LAV? Any 3D disc should play as 2D baring PUO (which AnyDVD takes care of) in a commercial player.

Its doubtful at best that disc-based 3D playback will work without a commercial player in the next 2-3 years. After that time, my crystall ball is only foggy.

That's fine, I can wait. Hopefully madshi has time to take a look at the most recent MSDK release before then though

[Hendrik]

Is that a limitation of LAV? Any 3D disc should play as 2D baring PUO (which AnyDVD takes care of) in a commercial player.

Comparisons to commercial players are meaningless.
Technically they could even decode the 3D stream and just discard the second image.

That's fine, I can wait. Hopefully madshi has time to take a look at the most recent MSDK release before then though

I was careful to say disc-based. Its certainly possible that playing some 3D things might work sooner, but just inserting a BD and hoping it to play automatically like it does in 2D now is still a looong time away.

[Sandy B Ridge]

We've seen a fair number of users that use .ISO files for their videos.

I believe .ISO is also common with SACD users.

We're trying to figure out how we might better support .ISO files in the program.

Yes, great plan.

I can think of two approaches:

1) Create our own ISO reader (we have most the code in our burning engine)

This would require some cooperation with LAV on the video side, because a complex format like Blu-ray requires reading lots of files.  Somehow we would need to give LAV a way to create a reader for different individual files.

Unless VCD disappears off the freeware planet, then you are probably reinventing the wheel.  My ignorance makes me puzzled regarding the LAV comment: if you wrote your own iso reader, then wouldn't it work in the same way as putting in a Bluray disc in a drive? ie you're just 'opening' an iso in the same way as a disc?

2) Support one or more of the most popular ISO mounting programs, and auto-mount / auto-dismount the ISO files when they're used

I'm not sure what the most popular programs are?  Are there any good, free solutions?  How would this work when multiple threads want to read different ISO files at the same time (like two zones each playing a different ISO)?

VirtualCloneDrive seems excellent in my experience. I believe you can have a number of 'CloneDrives' running at once, so you could specify the same number as your zones for this eventuality, or n+1 for a gizmo/webgizmo zone in addition! I can't remember the limit on number of drives in it offhand.

SBR

[Matt]

Another option would just be to suggest that people just don't use ISO.

We could provide documentation on how to unpack an ISO, for example.

Currently we don't support ISO all that well, but we also don't publicly say "don't do that."

[babgvant]

Another option would just be to suggest that people just don't use ISO.

We could provide documentation on how to unpack an ISO, for example.

Currently we don't support ISO all that well, but we also don't publicly say "don't do that."

People have ISOs. There are valid reasons to have them, and use them going forward.

The current implementation is a source of frustration for me. I can see why you wouldn't want to roll your own solution given the complexity and because there are good, free options out there, but it doesn't make sense to me that now that you've identified a problem that the "right" answer is "don't do that".

[jmone]

Matt - thanks for looking at this as ISO handling in MC is poor and it causes grief for many newbies. 

Background:  There can be good reasons to want to use ISO or just a user preference.  I originally used to rip my BD to unencrypted folders, then a change in the commercial players meant all these rips would not play.  So I then had to rerip as protected ISO that were then mounted and decrypted on the fly as with a normal disc (as recommended by Slysoft due to the earlier issues).  Once MC started supporting BD then I started ripping as folders.  But now I have my first BD 3D disc I am back to commercial players and ISO if I want to store it on the HDD. 

Current Issues in MC:  MC is "ignorant" of what is in an ISO so much of the automated reading and collecting of meta data does not work.  Playbackback requires the user to download and install an ISO mounter and you need (in some cases) to then manually set the Playback Method to get MC to reliably "play" the ISO to the mounter + you then need Windows File association to kick off the playback.

Solutions Proposed by Matt: Having MC being able to parse the content of what is in an ISO is terrific and would solve most of the issues, with the options to do so being:
- VCD:  I use VCD and it just works and as a very mature produce has few updates these days.  Nice and stable and causes little issue with the correct identification of CD, DVD, HD-DVD, BD (no idea on SACD sorry).  I have no idea on how the open source licence works but including it as a part of a MC would make life easy for all.  I don't know if you can have it as a private install (like with RO filters) as I assume you need it as a system driver.
- MC ISO Mounter:  If most of the code already exists in MC then having your own ISO parser may be a better option as you have much more flexibility.  The downside is the coding time VS just using VCD
- Other ISO Mounters:  Sounds like Win8 will include it as part of the file system so at some point (long) into the future MC may need to ALSO use whatever Win8 provides
- Recommend Against it:  As mentioned there are good reasons / user preferences for ISO and I would encourage better MC support not less.

If MC's ISO support was better, I'd seriously reconsider going back to using this as my format.  There is just something appealing to keeping an exact copy of the original disc on your server + it is nice a neat with only one file (+ a sidecar file)!

My 2cents.
Nathan

[jmone]

We could provide documentation on how to unpack an ISO, for example.

The Wiki contains some doco (and has from V12) - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DVD_Library_in_Media_Center but may need an update.

[gvanbrunt]

Personally I use Daemon Tools for mounting images. A few other media programs I've used supported auto mounting via DT, so some new users may be familiar with this if coming from other software.

I've long ago gotten rid of any ISO's I had because support in MC was lacking so I'm just going by what I saw a few years ago in other software when I used them for Movies and TV.

[MrHaugen]

I don't see the biggest need for implementing this now. A few years ago when DVD images was popular, sure. But now that most people have moved on to HD media or the still popular divx, no. The biggest problem imo is not the actual mounting of the images. That can be done easily with external apps like Deamon tools or Virtual Clone drive or similar. The biggest problem when I used images up until 4 months ago (now I've deleted all of it), was the fact that you got about 0 meta data for the images. It's treated as data, and meta data, cover art, play conters, duration etc, is non existent. THAT was, and is a bigger problem than mounting and playback it self imo. Implementing native mounting and playback might improve things like meta data as well. And if that is the case, I would say go for it.

If it takes a lot of work, then I would say no. There are more pressing matters with MC imo.

[Hendrik]

I've just found an ISO in my collection that i didn't even know i had, how curious.

Anyway, i would think leveraging the mounting functionality from other tools seems like the best idea.
Virtual CloneDrive is what i use, Daemon Tools is another popular alternative, both free.

After i manually mounted the disc i could play it just fine, it just didn't appear in the library to do it automatically.
This brings me to another point, while it was mounted the Theater View "Blu-ray" option played that one, but in the real optical drive was a Blu-ray as well, and i didn't see an obvious way to switch between the drives. Only very marginally related, but huh.

[NickF]

I'm not sure what the big deal is here.  Playing a mounted .iso is exactly the same as playing a physical disc in a drive.  The issue which needs to be addressed is simplifying the tagging of the iso file so it shows up in the right views and contains the right settings to play smoothly.

I wrote some instructions yesterday to cover most of this which Jim has now put on the wiki.

Is it possible to automate or semi-automate the tagging?

Nick.

[CountryBumkin]

ISOs play fine on the server machine (following NickF's instructions and using VirtualCloneDrive), but they don't work on my client machines.
My first try to play the ISO (a DVD movie) from my client resulted in a popup box asking for "username and password" (for access to server). Once I filled in the info, MC opens an Internet Explorer window and tries to connect to 192.168.0.100:52199/MCWS/v1/File/Getfile?file=93424.
However it never connects.

So I guess there is some more Wiki instruction needed " for the client configuration".

[Hendrik]

I get the same behaviour. I can add it manually to the library, but the Client cannot play it.
The Client even has full access to the ISO itself through a network share, it doesn't have to use the server to play it.

[jmone]

An oldie but a goodie!  LS Clients have had some issues mounting ISO over the years and I find one of the two will always fix it.

Tools --> Options --> File Type, the under Data Subsection select "Disk Image Files (iso, img, nrg)" and then change to playback method from "Automatic" to:
1) External Program (default).  If it still does not work, then the following does:

--- OR ---

2) External Program (custom).  Now browse to the VCD Install folder and select VCDMount so it looks like the following.

[CountryBumkin]

Thanks, jmone.
Tip #1 did not work, I had to to use #2.

I suggest these addtional instructions be added to the Wiki (that Jim just updated). Else others will be asking the same questions.

So to play ISO on client machine, you need to install VirtualCloneDrive (VCD) on the Client machine(s) and set playback method to "External Program (Custom)" and point to the "VCDMount.exe" file.

How important is the FPS on ISOs? For example, does an ISO BD movie need to have 23.976 entered to play correctly (my DVD ISO didn't seem affected by the missing data). As you know, the FPS field can be manually edited if needed.

[jmone]

These "Tips" are just workarounds for a bug that keeps coming back and IMO should be fixed (and Tip #1 has been in the original WIKI post for years http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DVD_Library_in_Media_Center#ISO_file_in_MC13)

It's been a bit since I tested but .... there is no point in setting any value in the FPS field in MC as when you "play" an ISO MC would change the Freq but as the "Play" event on an ISO is just mounting it, it would switch back immediately and the untagged content of the ISO is now being played (if that all makes sense)....hence I use the madVR settings to make the freq change.

[NickF]

I have made some updates to the instructions in the thread on the Media Center 17 Board to cover these points.

Jim, could you update the wiki please?

Nick.

[Hendrik]

Shouldn't that way to play an ISO be similar to playing a physical Blu-ray disc?
Does MCs refresh rate switcher not work with that either? I honestly didn't pay much attention last time i put a disc in.

[jmone]

I could be out of date but....the requests to integrate refresh rate changing based on the playing FPS has not happened but then we got madVR's feature...

MC's display rate changer kicks off pre playback from the value stored in the FPS field.  Hence it only works with content that is (or has been?) imported into the library.  While many GPU's seem to like this sequence, the downside is that Physical and Logical (ISO) discs don't have these values and hence MC does not change the refresh rate.  The answer is to also use the settings in madVR as it (as we know) reads the actual FPS of the playing material and changes it on the fly.

[Hendrik]

i'll test this later when i get home. I'm pretty sure it switches for Blu-rays.

[JimH]

SACD question was split here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71274.0

[raym]

I could be out of date but....the requests to integrate refresh rate changing based on the playing FPS has not happened but then we got madVR's feature...

MC's display rate changer kicks off pre playback from the value stored in the FPS field.  Hence it only works with content that is (or has been?) imported into the library.  While many GPU's seem to like this sequence, the downside is that Physical and Logical (ISO) discs don't have these values and hence MC does not change the refresh rate.  The answer is to also use the settings in madVR as it (as we know) reads the actual FPS of the playing material and changes it on the fly.

When u insert a physical disc, MC is supposed to scan the main feature (longest title) and populate FPS. I'd expect the same to occur when first importing an ISO.

This certainly used to work for DVD discs but checking a series of NTSC DVDs I have here suggests that this feature is now broken - at least for DVDs. BDs seem ok.

[raym]

Also, the problem with relying on Mad for display rate changing is that Mad does not support all media (like DVDs).

[Hendrik]

Since playing an ISO just results in Mounting it and then treating it like any other physical disc, i would expect ISOs and Physical Discs to behave the same. The FPS information in the library for the ISO would not seem to be important, as on mounting it treats it like a fresh physical disc.

In fact, at least for Blu-rays, MC17s Refresh Rate changing works just fine with ISOs or Physical Discs.
I don't play DVDs anymore.

[raym]

An oldie but a goodie!  LS Clients have had some issues mounting ISO over the years and I find one of the two will always fix it.

Tools --> Options --> File Type, the under Data Subsection select "Disk Image Files (iso, img, nrg)" and then change to playback method from "Automatic" to:
1) External Program (default).  If it still does not work, then the following does:

--- OR ---

2) External Program (custom).  Now browse to the VCD Install folder and select VCDMount so it looks like the following.

Took me ages to work out autoplay needs to be enabled for this to work. I set MC's autoplay setting for all disc types to "ask every time" but you don't get the prompt in theater view. Works ok in standard view. Could this be fixed please?

[Jong]

Just seen this thread now it has been "declassified"!

For what it's worth, as someone who has used both methods of ripping bluray for 5 years now I think.

- it is a no brainer that MC should be able to assign .iso as a video mediatype at import. This way we don't have to change the type for all isos. It should also mean the movie name is picked up from the folder name instead of having to rename all isos.

- I would not waste time creating a new iso mounter. Daemon or VCD should be picked up and used automatically (as seems to be the case already). There are more important things to do than reinventing the wheel. Also, VCD, being closely tied to Slysoft has adapted quickly in the past to attempts to prevent bluray isos from playing. Best leave this to the 'experts'!

- Using .iso is still best practice amongst AnyDVD diehards, for good reason. A protected iso rip will be able to adapt to any necessary changes in AnyDvD in the future. AnyDvD decrypts each time the disc is played using the latest methods. This may or may not affect MC's own player (it could and does if you rip a new release before Slysoft are fully on top of it), but it will certainly affect external players, which are a wholly legit way of using MC, e.g. For 3D. A player update might (and in the past has) break old rips. If AnyDVD is updated then isos will work again - not true if already ripped to a folder.

- The above being the case, it would be great if MC could optionally rip to Iso.

- If iso metadata was properly parsed on import not only could we have duration/resolution etc info in our libraries, but it would also be possible, presumably, to play using MC for 2D and automatically launch an external player for 3D! That would be fantastic.

All in all, please do not write off iso as some historic irrelevance! Some of us have been round the block a few times on this one  

[NickF]

- it is a no brainier that MC should be able to assign .iso as a video mediatype at import. This way we don't have to change the type for all isos. It should also mean the movie name is picked up from the folder name instead of having to rename all isos.

MC also handles SACD .iso so it couldn't default to video on import.  Can it detect the fact that a .iso is video?

Nick.

[babgvant]

MC also handles SACD .iso so it couldn't default to video on import.  Can it detect the fact that a .iso is video?

Nick.

It should be possible to determine the type after mounting it, but that might product undesirable results if the autoplay setting aren't configured in a specific manner.

IMO it could be a bit cleaner with a setting (treat ISO as by default), but the current approach (where you can assign a type to an import folder) works well enough too.

[Jong]

I was just thinking of having .iso as on optional (not default) file type for video imports. The user can then just tick it if he needs it, for folders containing them. Provided he doesn't have one folder with both SACD and bluray it would be fine.

[MrHaugen]

You should be able to do that with a Auto Import rule. Just make sure that only video iso's are put into that directory, and set the import rules as Media Type = Video.

[Jong]

As I said earlier, it does not work (unless you are talking of something else I am missing!). I can set the subtype to 'movies', but the mediatype stays, stubbornly, 'data', even if I tell it to change to 'video'. It seems it has to be done manually.

[MrHaugen]

Darn. Carnac probably takes control of the media type then. Hopefully JRiver can add the possibility to manipulate this field as well. It's a must for image files like iso and img.

[apgood]

Mine are automatically imported as media type video and sub type movie. I'll look later today what I did to make that happen. It was to do with the import rules but not syd what anymore. If / when I start using SACD iso's I'll look into if I can set a conditional rule of some type to import SACD iso's as type audio if the is file name has audio in it e.g. Cuff.audio.iso

[Jong]

Interesting! Please let me know how you did it!

[Jong]

Just to 'fess up! I set this up again and now it works! No idea what I did wrong before  . Anyway, it seems it is possible to change the media type on import 

[Jong]

Another request for Matt:

At the moment it seems there is no ability to prompt to rip/play/do nothing when in TheaterView. At least the normal one does not work. Instead DVDs/Blurays are always played when inserted. Please can we have the option for this prompt in TheaterView.

The above of course is not directly related to .iso. However, I have noticed in non-TheaterView if the above option is enabled a prompt appears even when MC itself mounts a .iso after pressing 'play'! Please can we change the behaviour so MC spots if it is mounting a .iso and in this case NOT prompt for rip/play/ignore.

[raym]

Another request for Matt:

At the moment it seems there is no ability to prompt to rip/play/do nothing when in TheaterView. At least the normal one does not work. Instead DVDs/Blurays are always played when inserted. Please can we have the option for this prompt in TheaterView.

I've reported this one many times. Would be nice to get it sorted one day.

[JimH]

If you're in Theater View, why would you insert a disc if you don't want to play it?

[Jong]

Because my HTPC is normally in TheaterView and I put the disc in to rip it.

Ideally I would be able to configure MC so it can rip Blurays to .iso and DVD to folder. Failing that I just want to able to tell MC to take no action and use AnyDVD to rip.

[Jong]

Just to 'fess up! I set this up again and now it works! No idea what I did wrong before  . Anyway, it seems it is possible to change the media type on import 

Not quite sure what is going on here. I have another file that will not import into "video" but keeps being imported as "data" although I have set up my tag import to change it. I'm guessing it might be because this file has previously been imported as "data", but new freshly imported files CAN be changed to video, but I am guessing.