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[JohnT]

Looking for advice on making TV channel setup a little friendlier in Media Center.  Currently we have three states for TV channels: deleted, available, favorite.  So after scanning for channels, you have a channel list and you can leave it as is, you can delete some channels, and you can mark some as favorites.  The guides in Theater View and standard view show all channels in the list.  The channel up and down buttons can move through all channels in the list or optionally only through the favorite channels. 

Some possible options:

1. Leave it as is, it's fine.

2. For simplicity, drop the "favorites" idea and all channels (that haven't been deleted) are shown in the guides.  The channel up/down button moves through all of them, and we'll make sure that holding down the button moves quickly and smoothly  through the channels so it isn't painful to skip from channel 9 to channel 199 quickly.

3. Keep the three state scheme, and add the option when showing guide data to show all channels or only favorite channels.  We could also move the favorite channel setup dialog to a more convenient place where it's separated from the more advanced activity of manually adding and editing channel specifics like major/minor/physical channel number, etc.

[eapool]

If those are my options - I vote for three.  If you have cable/ satellite, you usually have quite a few channels available, but maybe only watch a few.  That doesn't mean you don't ever want to see what is on the others.

I would really like the ability to have multiple favorite lists that are selectable from theater view.  This could also allow different views based on user, etc.

Since we currently can't create channel 'pools', I have different views based on tuner, so that I can differentiate between antenna and directv.  I could accomplish the same thing with a favorites list, if available.

Thanks,

Alex

[glynor]

I've explained this before, but since you're asking...

You really, really, really need a "unified guide".  Channel numbers should be disconnected (and abstracted) from "stations".  The "channel numbers" are completely irrelevant, except as a shortcut to jump to a particular part of the list.  More importantly, if I have three tuners (I do), then I should not ever see more than one copy of a particular "station" in the guide list.  I should see each channel listed once, and MC should choose what tuner to use when I tune that channel based on a tuner priority order, and what tuners are/aren't already in use.

That's how every other DVR application (or set-top-box) I've ever used has worked.  Imagine if a TiVO with 4 tuners had each-and-every channel listed 4 times, and you had to manually handle conflicts between these four different tuners?

That, and the whole channel-guide matching system needs to be completely re-worked.  It might be better than it was last time, but I ran into serious trouble, and it seemed like I'd need to re-invent the wheel regularly.

The goal should be a simple four-step process:

1. Enter your zip code and then pick your provider from a list (to get guide data).
2. Select Tuner(s) and assign a particular cable "package" (if applicable) to each tuner (analog tuners won't get the same channels as HD-PVR tuners connected to an external cable box, so each tuner needs it's own way to select a subset of the guide).
3. Configure tuner options (scan for channels on analog tuners, or program IR blaster for external STB style tuning).
4. Customize channel listing where necessary.  Here's where you'd do things like: match QAM channels (which don't typically have guide data available) to their OTA or Cable counterparts in the guide data you do have, or edit out QVC and channels you don't get from the guide, and things like that.

Done.

I haven't tried it again in a while, but I know you've added a few more of the things I'd need before trying to switch to MC again (like QAM support), but the unified guide (and the associated conflict resolution system) is really key.

Without it, my wife would need to know what tuner does what, and which "copy" of a particular channel to choose to record things on.  That's a nightmare.  If she wants to record something on CBS, she should be able to just pick the show on CBS, set a favorite, and have the system figure out the scheduling and use the best tuner available at the time, while still recording as much as it can.

Anything less is just not meeting the bar set by set-top DVR boxes for the past 6 years.

[Sandy B Ridge]

I've explained this before, but since you're asking...

You really, really, really need a "unified guide".  Channel numbers should be disconnected (and abstracted) from "stations".  The "channel numbers" are completely irrelevant, except as a shortcut to jump to a particular part of the list.  More importantly, if I have three tuners (I do), then I should not ever see more than one copy of a particular "station" in the guide list.  I should see each channel listed once, and MC should choose what tuner to use when I tune that channel based on a tuner priority order, and what tuners are/aren't already in use.

That's how every other DVR application (or set-top-box) I've ever used has worked.  Imagine if a TiVO with 4 tuners had each-and-every channel listed 4 times, and you had to manually handle conflicts between these four different tuners?

That, and the whole channel-guide matching system needs to be completely re-worked.  It might be better than it was last time, but I ran into serious trouble, and it seemed like I'd need to re-invent the wheel regularly.

The goal should be a simple four-step process:

1. Enter your zip code and then pick your provider from a list (to get guide data).
2. Select Tuner(s) and assign a particular cable "package" (if applicable) to each tuner (analog tuners won't get the same channels as HD-PVR tuners connected to an external cable box, so each tuner needs it's own way to select a subset of the guide).
3. Configure tuner options (scan for channels on analog tuners, or program IR blaster for external STB style tuning).
4. Customize channel listing where necessary.  Here's where you'd do things like: match QAM channels (which don't typically have guide data available) to their OTA or Cable counterparts in the guide data you do have, or edit out QVC and channels you don't get from the guide, and things like that.

Done.

I haven't tried it again in a while, but I know you've added a few more of the things I'd need before trying to switch to MC again (like QAM support), but the unified guide (and the associated conflict resolution system) is really key.

Without it, my wife would need to know what tuner does what, and which "copy" of a particular channel to choose to record things on.  That's a nightmare.  If she wants to record something on CBS, she should be able to just pick the show on CBS, set a favorite, and have the system figure out the scheduling and use the best tuner available at the time, while still recording as much as it can.

Anything less is just not meeting the bar set by set-top DVR boxes for the past 6 years.

Indeed, glynor speaks words of wisdom as always!

SBR

[JohnT]

More importantly, if I have three tuners (I do), then I should not ever see more than one copy of a particular "station" in the guide list.  I should see each channel listed once, and MC should choose what tuner to use when I tune that channel based on a tuner priority order, and what tuners are/aren't already in use.

That's how every other DVR application (or set-top-box) I've ever used has worked.  Imagine if a TiVO with 4 tuners had each-and-every channel listed 4 times, and you had to manually handle conflicts between these four different tuners?

That, and the whole channel-guide matching system needs to be completely re-worked.  It might be better than it was last time, but I ran into serious trouble, and it seemed like I'd need to re-invent the wheel regularly.

The current tuner setup works pretty much like you describe, it uses a tuner priority list.  And the channel-guide matching system was re-vamped recently.

If she wants to record something on CBS, she should be able to just pick the show on CBS, set a favorite, and have the system figure out the scheduling and use the best tuner available at the time, while still recording as much as it can.

Anything less is just not meeting the bar set by set-top DVR boxes for the past 6 years

This is how our "subscription" TV recording system works presently.

[glynor]

Okay.  It wasn't like that at all the last time I tried it (which was, admittedly, a few months ago).  To be clear, I have three different physical tuners (5 logical devices):

1. HD-PVR hooked up to my Digital Cable box
2. Hauppauge 2250 Analog tuner (#1)
3. Hauppauge 2250 QAM/ATSC tuner (#1)
4. Hauppauge 2250 Analog tuner (#2)
5. Hauppauge 2250 QAM/ATSC tuner (#2)

The HD-PVR gets some channels the others can't see (obviously).  The two analog tuners get the same channels #3-70ish as the HD-PVR.  The two QAM tuners get my local channels the same as my Analog tuners, but they obviously use totally different "channel numbers" (and are in HD via QAM).

What you are saying is that I'm able to go on and assign QAM channel 98-4 to show up in the guide as "channel 12".  Likewise, I'll be able to assign my HD-PVR/STB channel 712 (digital version of PBS) to "channel 12" in the guide.  That way, my Guide will only list PBS once, no matter what the source.

Then, when I tune it, I can set the priority like this:

1. QAM
2. HD-PVR
3. Analog

So that it only ever actually "tunes" the "real" channel 12, if both of the QAM tuners and my HD-PVR are in-use or otherwise unavailable.  Right?

[glynor]

I should add... If so, I could really not care less about the original question you asked.

I'd really prefer to never have to see the channel numbers at all, and certainly don't want them sorted by channel number.  It can be handy to be able to quick type in a remembered channel number in a pinch, but mostly I don't remember them at all.  I'd prefer to have a flexible method of sorting the channels by channel name (PBS, HBO, ABC, etc) and to be able to assign them to "genres" (like "Sports", "Locals", "Premium", "Science", "Lifestyle", etc) and sort them that way with different views for different needs.

That is something no other DVR application really does well, and it is something I think MC could excel at.

In that case, yes, it would be handy to be able to build a "favorites" list, but it would also be good to be able to build other groupings too.

[NickF]

The recent changes to tuning and, particularly, setting up the guide are better but still tortuous.  In the UK on DVB-S, one Provider doesn't provide all of the guide data for all of the channels so we need to be able to select multiple Providers.

The huge number of encrypted channels need to be automatically filtered out.

Radio and TV channels need to be separately flagged so we can have different channel lists and, indeed, separate guides.  I currently have a custom field to mark channels as radio or TV.  This should be done automatically.

We definitely want favourites and need an option for guide presentation and channellists based on favourites.

We need to be able to have channel logos in the guide listings.

I definitely want channel numbers.  Many people will remember favourite channel numbers and want to access them like that.  My remote uses them to select channels from icon based buttons on the iPad display.  We also need a Core Command which selects channels based on channel number string, not just the multiple single character option we have now.

We also want to be able to change channels which we can't at present without all sorts of glitches.

I agree with most of what glynor has said about only having a channel name appear only once.  This only happens across instances of the same type of tuner.  If I had the same channel on DVB-T and DVB-S, it would appear twice.

Lots to be done!

Nick.

[nwboater]

I agree with most of what glynor said except I definitely want channel numbers. On our cable we have 2 or 3 ABC's from different areas both in HD & SD. The same with some other stations. His non numbering system would work if you could add more identifiers to ABC such as Detroit HD. But I still think in numbers for many of our favorite channels. So how about this being an option - one way for glynor and one for me!

It's been several months since we set up our HDPVR so I don't know if the setup procedure may have changed. It was thoroughly non intuitive when I did it. If it hasn't been already the procedure needs to be made much more straightforward and simplified.

To Johns original question: I like #3, but "the option when showing guide data to show all channels or only favorite channels" should be selectable on the guide if it can be set up to do from a remote.

Thanks for asking for input on this.
Rod

[JustinChase]

Thanks for asking.  I'm very hopeful this signifies some intent to put some concerted effort on TV in general, but even if not, this will be another good step forward

As for the original question, I think having "Favorites" is useful/welcome/expected by most people wishing to 'just watch some TV'.  I think "The Power of JRiver" allows you to easily go a step beyond that, and give multiple Favorites, as recently suggested above. 

I also think the channel numbers will become less meaningful over time.  They used to be a convenient way to differentiate selections when there were a dozen or so, but with (for example) PBS having nearly any channel number across the country, and any other channel having multiple options for numbers, I think over time some random number will hold less importance.  I think we generally know what channel Name we want to watch, so changing to that as the main selection criteria is inevitable I think.  I understand that some will still want to use channel numbers (and should be able to), but I think this will change once searching/selecting by Name is easier.

I think Glynor's comments on how best to get there (multiple tuners 'hidden' from users), and some attention on TV in general would get a lot more people to try/use TV in MC (and I really want to )

thanks

[Sandy B Ridge]

Some possible options:

1. Leave it as is, it's fine.

2. For simplicity, drop the "favorites" idea and all channels (that haven't been deleted) are shown in the guides.  The channel up/down button moves through all of them, and we'll make sure that holding down the button moves quickly and smoothly  through the channels so it isn't painful to skip from channel 9 to channel 199 quickly.

3. Keep the three state scheme, and add the option when showing guide data to show all channels or only favorite channels.  We could also move the favorite channel setup dialog to a more convenient place where it's separated from the more advanced activity of manually adding and editing channel specifics like major/minor/physical channel number, etc.

How about having a more flexible option?

Rather than a three state scheme, why not have channel lists as 'playlists'? You could then have as many schemes as you wish: All, Favourites, Movies, Kids, Shopping, Radio, etc, etc.. In the Guide option then the roller could switch between the playlists.

Also the guide could be made XMLTVID related (to keep glynor & me happy!) rather than physical channel related. Then the Tuning Code would find the next available Tuner with the same XMLTVID. There is already a tuner priority built into the options, so this would probably suffice (without the need to set priority for every channel individually which would probably be overkill). So for example I could set the following to the same XMLTVID:
DVB T : BBC One HD
DVB T : BBC One SD
DVB S : BBC One HD
DVB S : BBC One SD

BBC One would appear in the EPG Once only and the tuner logic would work out which to use ( maybe prioritising HD)

SBR

[glynor]

For the record, I wasn't saying channel numbers should be removed at all.  Just that any system shouldn't be built around them.  They are certainly antiquated.

[NickF]

Also the guide could be made XMLTVID related (to keep glynor & me happy!) rather than physical channel related. Then the Tuning Code would find the next available Tuner with the same XMLTVID. There is already a tuner priority built into the options, so this would probably suffice (without the need to set priority for every channel individually which would probably be overkill). So for example I could set the following to the same XMLTVID:
DVB T : BBC One HD
DVB T : BBC One SD
DVB S : BBC One HD
DVB S : BBC One SD

BBC One would appear in the EPG Once only and the tuner logic would work out which to use ( maybe prioritising HD)

I think it may need to be more flexible than this.  The priority for watching may be different from recording.  I would invariably choose to watch in HD but, depending on disc space, may choose to record in SD.  Maybe there should be a choice for recording when setting the recording up.  If there is a choice for the channel, display the option.

Nick.

[Scolex]

Rather than a three state scheme, why not have channel lists as 'playlists'? You could then have as many schemes as you wish: All, Favourites, Movies, Kids, Shopping, Radio, etc, etc.. In the Guide option then the roller could switch between the playlists.

I think that is a fabulous idea.
I am thinking also have a record list with drag n drop for each available tuner/capture device, be smart enough to know if it is HD or SD tuner or have a HD/SD setting for the device.

[MrC]

Generalize perhaps w/per-channel Keywords, which become user-favorites lists, an omnipresent All, Deleted, etc.

[Sandy B Ridge]

I think it may need to be more flexible than this.  The priority for watching may be different from recording.  I would invariably choose to watch in HD but, depending on disc space, may choose to record in SD.  Maybe there should be a choice for recording when setting the recording up.  If there is a choice for the channel, display the option.

Nick.

Nick, of course you are right. I slept on this after posting and came to the same conclusion. I would think that an option in the Record/Subscribe dialog could work quite well here. eg. If you choose to record a program on the XMLTVID, jriver will know that it has 4 channels linked to that ID (as my Bbc One example above) and present you with a priority list at the time of recording. I'm different to you, because I'd rather record in HD if possible, disc space is cheap! So this way could suit us both.

[JohnT]

Thanks for the comments guys.  I've got another problem I'm working on at the moment, but I'll be returning to this issue shortly.  We're looking to take some incremental steps in the direction of ease of use, rather than a wholesale overhaul right away.

[rossp]

One other thing, when the scan for channels is complete and the box to select or delete channels is displayed there is a tick box next to each channel. If you tick multiple channels and delete them only the single highlighted channel (which may not be ticked) is deleted. This has cought me out several times

Rgds Ross

[NickF]

One other thing, when the scan for channels is complete and the box to select or delete channels is displayed there is a tick box next to each channel. If you tick multiple channels and delete them only the single highlighted channel (which may not be ticked) is deleted. This has cought me out several times

Rgds Ross

That checkbox is for selecting Favorites only.  It caught me out first.  I think your assumed use for it would be more helpful.

Nick.

[audioriver]

3. Make the favourites more readily available, in a right-click context menu inside the TV window for example, and/or as an easily editable/accessible smartlist/playlist.

[Yaobing]

For the record, I wasn't saying channel numbers should be removed at all.  Just that any system shouldn't be built around them.  They are certainly antiquated.

I see your point here.  You prefer a program-centric system instead of a channel-centric system, right?  But channels are just important foundation of any system as you actually tune to a channel, not to a program when it comes to a particular tuner.  Don't you see that there are still many people asking for a channel view in the Theater view (or building one themselves)?

I think we can do the following (I hope it will satisfy you):

We can group related channels.  Since channels are database entries, we can just add a field to it - "Related Channels".  When user chooses to play a program, which is associated with a particular channel, we can look up all related channels of that channel, and then try them in the user's priority order.

The process of grouping may require user input manually (we can certainly try doing some auto-matching, but the user should be the ultimate decision maker).

[NickF]

I think a channel view is important and I would be very unhappy if we moved away from that.  

One of the serious issues is that many of us will have tuner cards which support multiple carriers, e.g. DVB-T and DVB-S on the same card.  This means we will see the some of the same channels on both and some will be SD and some HD.  So multiple deliveries of the same channel.  I am prepared to see separate rows in the guide for SD and HD of the same channel but not separate rows for the same channel in SD from DVB-S and DVB-T.  I would prefer one row with rules to show my preference for viewing (SD or HD) and my preference for recording (SD or HD).  So I don't expect everything to be automated but I think it would be great to have the mechanisms to choose my preferences in a simple interface.

I also want to preserve channel numbers as a way of rapid selection.

I would very much like to see a MC Core Command to input a channel number string to select a channel.  I have seen others express this view.

Nick.

[WayneM]

I'd like to add to the voices in favour of having a channel number system.  This is important both for sorting in the Guide (not available now so I have had to build it by prefixing the Channel Name with a number), as well as for quick selection (as is now available).

While I hear those that say channel numbers are becoming outdated in some parts of the world (particularly when you have hundreds of channels), the situation here in the UK may be somewhat different.

I have asked Brian Butterworth, who has run the ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice site for the last decade, to explain why channel numbers are so important to UK television users:

In the UK, there are a number of broadcasters that have a special status in law: the BBC (funded by universal television tax), the Channel 4 Corp. (a public not-for-profit broadcaster), S4C (ditto for Welsh language programming), the "Channel 3 Licencees" (ITV plc, STV, UTV), and the "Channel 5 Licencee".

The Broadcasting Act 2003 recognises the status of these broadcasters by making provision for "due prominence" on any EPG. Statement on Code on Electronic Programme Guides Statement by Ofcom Issued

The upshot is that the first five slots of any EPG must go to BBC One, BBC Two, Channel 3 Licencee, Channel 4 (or S4C in Wales), and Channel 5.

For this reason, channel numbers are an important part of the UK broadcasting ecosystem.

THE UK TV ECOSYSTEM

There are four main EPG operators:

- DMOL (Digital Multiplex Operators Ltd.) who are responsible for the "Freeview" digital terrestrial system - DMOL Post-DSO Logical Channel Numbers
- SSSL (Sky Subscriber Services Ltd.) who operate the Sky subscription satellite system
- Freesat (a BBC/ITV joint venture) who operate the EPG for free-to-air satellite
- Virgin Media, who operate the cable EPG

This is complicated by there being 15 BBC One local regional variations Which BBC regions are on satellite? , four national BBC Two variations, and many local ITV variations ITV regions map.  In addition, Channel 4 Macro Map - Interactive Map of Our Regions with Data and Channel 5 Spot Advertising Macro Map - Channel 5 have six subregions but only for advertising.

So, for example, position 3 on Freeview (103 on other systems) is STV in Edinburgh, UTV in Belfast, ITV 1 Wales in Cardiff, ITV 1 Meridian South in Brighton.

To make this work, there is a complex network of transmitters and multiple streams on satellite Astra 1N at 28.2°E - LyngSat.

The BBC also operates a number of other stations on television and radio. These are also public services but the other channels operated by ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 are not. There are hundreds of other channels provided by private companies, but all are licensed by OFCOM.

This has led to each of the systems that could easily be linked into JRiver having their own channel number systems:

--- All free-to-watch channels - ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice

It is also expected that the LCN channel numbers will continue into IPTV, launching this year as "YouView". DTG :: News :: DMOL publish LCN consultation

So this means that the 60 million UK users of digital television are accustomed to using these numbers, as they have been in use for over a decade.

WHAT THIS MEANS FOR JRiver

IMHO, JRiver should automatically be able to read the logical channel numbers (LCN) from the NIT tables provided as part of the free-to-air broadcast and provide these to UK users as the default sort option, for both legal and practical reasons.

It is a fair question to wonder how systems with overlapping logical channel numbers (say DVB-T Freeview and DVB-S Freesat) should be handled.

[audioriver]

I think channel numbers should only be allowed in the favourites list, otherwise they will could cause confusion with the massive amount of channels available. Give the user the chance to create his/her own favourites list, number and re-order the channels as they wish. The ability to create more than one favourites list would probably please everybody.

[JustinChase]

I see channel numbers as one of several ways to locate and navigate to a show a person wants to watch, or thinks they might want to watch.  Somewhat like an Album helps a person navigate to a song they want to hear.

You could also navigate/find a show by selecting the channel/broadcaster name, or time.  Similar to selecting Artist or track # to find a song.

Most people are very used to using channel numbers, and I agree they must continue to be a part of JRiver Media Center.  However, more people are beginning to care less about/not know channel numbers at all.  I cannot tell you the channel number for the Discovery Channel on any provider in my area.  I personally don't care what it is; I just know that there's often interesting programming on the Discovery Channel, and want to watch or browse that.  I just request/hope that alternatives to channel numbers will be given equal consideration/design, for those that don't want to remember numbers, when names are easier.  

I would suggest that Logos are smaller (more/inch) and often as easy to 'read' as the spelled out channel names, so the ability to have channel logos much like album covers as a navigation option might be fun.

[icstm]

I agree that channel numbers are important, so please count my vote if someone is counting.