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[daveman]

Hi all,

I am hoping you can provide me with some much needed advice.  Please excuse my ignorance if I am asking stupid questions.

I am in the process of a major renovation project and the time seems right to look into the whole home automate process.  I am being advised to get the Control 4 system which is quite nifty.  However, it seems to be lacking for my needs in the Media Server department.

I have a 12 TB media server which includes movies, music, and pictures.  I have 5 WDTV (3 wdtv live and 2 wdtv live hubs) which I love.  What I would like to do is to use an IPAD or tablet device to access my media and then to "play to" a specific device.  Thus, in my den I could send one movie, while in the bedroom my wife could send a TV show to that TV.  I would like to be able to start a video in one room and then transfer the playback to another room.  Control 4 has their own media server which may be able to some of this but at $300.00 plus per unit I am not interested.  I would also like to be able to access the media via the internet (I can do this now using a slingbox HD) using something like the control 4 interface.  In essence I want a single interface to run everything.

can JRiver access the windows "play to" feature?  Is there a way to integrate JRiver with Control 4?  What systems are other people using?  Am I completely wrong in thinking of managing my media this way?

[JimH]

"Play to" is equivalent to playing to a DLNA Renderer, which the WDTV HD Live devices are.  MC will do that.

[Visth]

i use justaddpower for HD video distribution via IP and a managed switch. Control4 as a fancy remote control system. I only have the 300  controller and the iphone/ipad license. JRiver is installed on my HTPC and i have synology server with media. works like a dream. plus i have a bunch of home automation stuff i run through control4. The interface is the best on the market in my opinion, particularly the ipad one!

using  jriver as a DLNA server works, but not for me. just wanted to be able to flip from cable box (x2) to apple tv to htpc to whatever next device will come out, on all tv's in the house anywhere and anytime. JAP is just a fantastic matrix for that purpose. no hassle no tech know-how required for that (after installation) particularly in combination with the control4 driver.. HTPC works well with jriver, and I use it for audio distribution. Unfortunately, and this is really too bad, there is not a good control4 driver that links up with jriver. that would be the magic link. I doubt that control4 will make that, as they only really make money on their audio matrix devices that are like 4 large. you can run some (2 zones/devices) audio through a 300 control4 unit, and I have it set up to control the basic functions of "theater view" and it can switch zones in jriver. this is already great. The only thing lacking is discrete volume control for multiple audio zones... for that you need one of the big c4 units.  Control4 works in zones or locations as well, but therein lies the problem. C4 zones are not JRiver zones... turning up the C4 volume in the living room does nothing in JRiver Living room zone...

anyway, i am trying to summarize here what has been puzzled together by myself and my buddy working on this with me. It is actually quite complex. Just know that we started out with trying to use jriver as the back bone of it all. What i will say is that the jremote app makes the audio part a breeze, just not using C4 for any of that as of now. i can use a PS3 as a renderer for media as well, use the various tv's with DLNA to get to the server, etc, etc. However, mostly, I just switch to the HTPC and access my server media that way. The other devices have just such clunky DLNA software. 

Now, if people have setups like the above and have a control4 driver for jriver mc. wow, i will pay for that! jriver is clearly the best media player out there. and really the only thing I can't do right now is control the volume in jriver per zone using control4.

[JimH]

Did you try switching MC to "Internal" volume?  Click the little speaker icon to begin.

[Visth]

I appreciate your attempt at being helpful.

JRiver works fine. I have tried multiple setups and volume control works great per zone in a variation of setups. Currently I control 6 different zones. No need to learn how to click on the speaker thingy, I am a bit beyond that. 

The issue is that for control4 to understand it can use jriver as a volume and audio endpoint, this will have to be programmed into a IP driver specific for control4 and JRiver, Analogous to for instance a control4 driver for a fancy onkyo receiver for instance. Short of that it wont work. I am not proficient enough of a programmer to write an control4 IP driver for jriver.

I'd pay for that driver.

[daveman]

Visth... thanks for your informative response. 

I am trying to get my head around a few things.... 

justaddpower for HD video distribution - allows you to send high def (HDMI) signal  across a network.  Am I correct?  Why do yo actually need this versus simply running media from the computer or is it to get high def TV?


"JAP is just a fantastic matrix for that purpose"  What do u mean by JAP?

I think that you have set up the type of system I am looking at.  I agree that a JRiver - Control 4 driver would be amazing.

I am trying to set up  Whole Home media system.  I have a 12TB server, whole house is set up with CAT 6 (about 30  drops!).  I have 4 desktop computers, 3 laptops, and 5 DLNA media servers (3 WDTV Live / 2 WDTV LIV HUBs).  My wife wants to be able to watch live tv (Basic Cable - we are in Canada and are cable companies only use encrypted digital and I do not want a cable box) so I set up a slingbox HD (nifty product).  I want to be able to use a single interface to be able to control music, video, live TV (i.e., TV streaming), live FM radio (live AM radio but that does not seem to exist anymore).  I would also like to be able to access the media server from abroad via the internet for streaming media.  I am also interested in home automation which is why I was looking at Control 4.  Of course, zones is very important and I will likely have to purchase an amp that allows zones (unfortueetanely, the one I have now only includes 2 zones, and I require at least 1 more zone

In addition to all of this, I have a formal sound proof theatre in my home which still includes an old projector and a bose audio stystem.  I will be updating the entire system and I still have to decide how it should integrate with the rest of the whole home media system.

I have spoken to a few companies and they all seem to be lacking in the FULL integration approach with automation and media server.  2 companies are pushing the Control 4 system but they are unable or unwilling or simply do not know how to create the type of integrated media serving system that I desire.  I have been unable to come up with a system design and I am struggling.  As I am in the midst of home renovations in which several walls are now exposed, it is the perfect time to do any wiring that would be required.

[Visth]

Sorry for the late reply.

JAP (Just Add Power) is indeed a HD HDMI over IP solution. I like it. No stock in the company ;-). It is just very scalable, and simply always works. It allows all kinds of HDMI signals with 5.1 sound from any source to go to any TV in any configuration. So if you have say a cable box and an HTPC, you can transmit those HDMI signals into your switch, and then the HTPC output can go to tv 1, 3 and 4, while you watch cable on 2 and 5. Clearly, the advantage of this system increases with more sources and more screens.

Control4 is a very nice home automation system, mostly because of the very smartly designed interface and the phenomenal software that integrates various pieces of hardware seamlessly. I use Control4 in a very limited fashion at the moment. I use a single controller unit. The software allows for very easy control of all my equipment, including cable boxes, apple tv etc. Most importantly, I can control the JAP switch with a the same phenomenal software, even with my ipad or iphone.

Control4 divides the house up in rooms, and determines per room what the audio and video endpoints are in that area. In normal terms, it basically asks you what speakers and TV you use. It controls the volume and "channel" choice for you. "channel" in quotation marks as it can be anything, including streaming media from a home server using the control4 hard and software. Technically, I actualy only use one "channel" which is the just add power channel and I switch channels not at the control4 level, but at the JAP Switch level.

I have an extensive HTPC with JRiver as its core software. Basically, I started out with this machine and wanted to use it for all of the above. Technically, I was able to get multiple screens set up and the audio zones worked really well. However the video component is simply not good enough for day to day multi user use. I did look into cable cards and configurations with multiple graphic cards and even multiple cheap "thin client" slave units with individual graphic cards. I can make it work with streaming of video and such, but it did never reach the quality I was looking for. Having said that, the reason to do it this way was to save costs and by the time I had a working configuration, the costs had actually ramped up as well, but without the quality or easy of control I was looking for in my rather large setup. So no dig at JRiver, at all, it is the best of the crop. One thing i maintained from these days of trial and error is the audio distribution. This is outside of control4 (largely) and done by running separate individual stereo cables to my audio zones. I have a couple of amps in my AV rack and that supplies the power for the music. This is still in evolution. As described earlier, JRiver/HTPC does not integrate well with Control4, but for now this is the solution I chose from a cost/effectiveness perspective. Using a multizone (and you quickly will need 5 or 6 zones) amplifier that has a control4 driver is ultimately the way to go and my way to go, as soon as I have the time, energy and cash to buy that.

I use my HTPC for so much more nowadays. I use JRiver on the HTPC to play all my server stored music and video. I use the theater view interface for this and it is beautiful. I browse youtube with it and access netflix through it. If someone else in the house is watching the HTPC channel, i can still get to my movies on the server via my PS3 or even using the DLNA client on some of my TV's. I also use my HTPC as the main computer in the house. Keyboards in every room, mouse in every room and you have a super fast (gaming) PC in every room of the house! browse the web, do what ever. I love it. Not easy to do, but if you have dropped enough Cat6 (you need 2 per room at least), you have plenty of cable to run a USB extension into each room as well. Logitech keyboards/mice will then be your wireless keyboard and mouse of choice. But, mind you, in this set up the HTPC is only one option on my TV's and I can also control the HTPC using the JRemote app or webgizmo and run it even without using the TV's or keyboards and stream it to any other laptop, padtop or phone in the house. It is a truly versatile system. It would be perfect with an IP controller of JRiver build into a Control4 driver, as I could then control JRiver volume directly using control4 software. now I control the volume of the htpc per zone by using JRemote. It is soo close, i can taste it. Unfortunately, i will likely soon have to spend a bunch on a mulitchannel amp/matrix because of familial complaints. I will still use JRiver as my main gate way into the HTPC because it is just fantastic software for this purpose.

I think JRiver is fantastic software. The setup I describe above is beyond what i ever expect from JRiver. I use JRiver for my media room for instance. Fantastic.

Couple of quick notes:
live radio is easy using control4 and a good receiver. Onkyo comes to mind. If you want to feed it to all zones, you may truly need a control4 audio matrix/amp for room level control of volume and input.
Control4 people only do control4. The system described above is well above the average Control4 dealer. You will have to drive that boat. They can help you with your home automation though.  Or find someone who knows enough about network computing to set it all up for you.
Next, drop enough cables! In 10 years from now, you will be looking at something completely different and wireless, I am sure. For now, wired solutions are still the bomb.
Lastly: this is a hobby like no other. warn your family. This is not an out of the box solution ;-)

[daveman]

Visth... thanks for the very detailed reply.  I wish you lived nearby... I would love to have you work with me to build a system

As I spend more time researching, I realize that I will not a lot more time to set up my dream system.  As I am in the midst of a renovation, I decided to run several conduits under my floor joists an into what will become my media rack room.  I already have over 20 cat6 drops in my home (maybe more as I lost count and will be adding 3 or 4 more in my kitchen plus running speaker wire for ceiling mounted speakers in 2 different zones as well as cable to run any in wall tablets (should I choose to use them later).  Trying to find someone who understands the concept of a Matrix seems to be a challenge as the people I speak to only want to look at a packaged system (like control 4) and do not appear to be imaginative in setting up a more customized system.  This is quite frustrating for me.  I need a tech nerd friend who is more knowledgeable than I am  

What I realize now is that the term Matrix best describes what i am trying to build.  What I did not mention in my initial post is that in addition to wanting to set up automation and having 5 WDTV in my home, I also have a soundproof theatre in my home... I had thought about getting a separate system for the theatre (I am using old equipment at this time and was planning on purchasing a high end system) but I now realize that the Matrix I build should include the theatre and I should ensure that I purchase a multi zone amp that would be powerful enough to provide the unnecessary amperage to the theatre...


So by simply pre-wiring where I can and spending the next several months researching options and automation companies in Toronto, I hope that I will be able to develop a system that I will be happy with.  Please expect more questions from me.  In just a few days, my knowledge base has increased considerably through the reposnes of people such as you.

Playing with JRiver has also been an extremely interesting learning experience... I have just started to realize the power of the system and hope that I can adapt it to suit my quirky needs.

Thanks

dave

[Visth]

I would start by making a schematic of your house, and draw in audio and video 'end points'. Look at JAP and see how they set up a home with screens. Do realize that if you want 5.1 sound with a tv you will need an amp that can do that in the room you are playing your 5.1 sound. Alternatively, you can centralize this in your av rack, and run separate audio cables into that room.

Personally, I would just use the hdmi input on the tv and use that in most rooms and only setup surround sound in a dedicated media room. There is just an enormous cool factor to having nothing but a screen mounted on the wall in various rooms and yet have access and control over every pievce of equipment in the house.  You will want more and more screens everywhere. For stereo sound zones I would run separate cables.

I saw you wanted touchpads... Yes cool, yes very expensive, yes useless if you have an iPhone or iPad....

I do live a bit far south for us to work on this project together. However, I was able to find a friend who knew muchmore about some aspects like control4 and networking, and a lot of helpful people on this forum and others. The guys at JAP are very helpful too, and I could not have done what I (we, it is not a solo project, but it is my system) did without their help. This public endorsment hopefully makes up for the time, energy and equipment they sacrificed on my learning curve. I will check back from time to time to see if I can be of any assistance.

[daveman]

So I have been convinced to look at Crestron instead of Control 4 given the matrix setup that I want.

Anyone use MC with Crestron?

dave

[oldDave]

AMX is similar to Crestron. I think AMX may be more friendly to end users doing thier own programming.