Topic: V17.0.x: 24/96 Files Freeze using RME Multiface (WASAPI or ASIO) (Read 5761 times)

Vocalpoint · « **on:** February 23, 2012, 12:48:12 pm »

Morning,

This is a follow-on to an older thread regarding 24/96 FLAC files not playing.

MC 17.0.82 (on up to .91) cannot seems to play 24/96 FLAC via my RME Multiface II. When I load up MC - no problems playing any FLAC file that is 16/44. But with any FLAC that is 24/96 - MC freezes - the song freezes and no sound is produced.

I am able to replicate this behavior with MC using the ASIO output mode or WASAPI (in plain and event style modes). MC has exclusive access to the device.

As another test of the interface - all of my audio recording software (Wavelab 7, Vegas Pro 9, Nuendo 5.52 and Presonus Studio One 2.04) will play 24/96 FLAC or wav with no issues whatsoever. The RME tray applet shows a correct sample rate of 96000 using the Internal clock bit rate.

However - MC seems to have some sort of mysterious issue with this studio interface?

Any ideas on what I can do to troubleshoot?

VP

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2012, 11:02:56 am »

Update

I played around with the ASIO output again and finally seemed to figure out where the problem lies. With MC using the RME ASIO driver - if I start MC up and then wait - say 10 seconds (like some sort of mysterious intialization period must pass) and then target a 24/96 file for playback - it plays. While that song is playing - if I click on another 24/96 file - it will play as well.

But - if while a 24/96 file is playing - I select a 16/44 track - MC goes into freeze mode. The only way to stop this behavior is physically click the Stop button in the upper left transport. Then I wait a second or two and click Play on the 16/44 track - it plays. Then while that is playing, I can move to another 16/44 track and have it play (crossfading) with the former.

And then the reverse happens - if a 16/44 track is playing and I attempt to start playback on a 24/96 file - MC freezes. Hitting stop on the transport and waiting a few seconds and then hitting Play on the 24/96 file works.

After more testing - it seems that MC now requires me to click Stop and wait on any transition from 16/44 to 24/96 and the reverse.

Has this always been the case? Is there some setting that's causing the "delay" or is this just the way ASIO works with MC. I can see it being a major pain if I ever create a playlist that mixes different sample and bit rates. Seems like MC will stop when switching between them.

Comments?

VP

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2012, 11:10:20 am »

This is not normal with ASIO.

Your device / driver may not support setting sample rates for a while after it's been stopped.

One solution is to allow Media Center to upsample everything to a consistent sample rate.

You could also post a log showing ASIO startup when it freezes, but my guess is that RME will have to help on this one. We'd be happy to work with them if you contact them.

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2012, 11:15:55 am »

That's not the way ASIO should work, but the driver may have problems.

Why not resample everything?

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2012, 11:16:33 am »

Quote from: Matt on February 24, 2012, 11:10:20 am

This is not normal with ASIO.

Your device / driver may not support setting sample rates for a while after it's been stopped.

One solution is to allow Media Center to upsample everything to a consistent sample rate.

You could also post a log showing ASIO startup when it freezes, but my guess is that RME will have to help on this one. We'd be happy to work with them if you contact them.

Matt/Jim,

Will look at getting some logs..and will consult RME if need be. It's a bit surprising as RME drivers are known for their rock solid reliability and are very well done. This interface has been tremendously rock solid for all of my pro audio work for ages. Mind you - I don't really get into swapping sample rates that often....

Will also do a bit more testing here (like the resample option) to see what else I can find out.

Thanks!

VP

Mitchco · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:59:42 pm »

I am having a different, but maybe similar issue with ASIO and WASAPI with my Lynx L22.

Attached are a few pics. WASAPI and MIX2 are paired together. Looking at WASAPI.jpg, when I select Device and from the drop down list, I select Lynx L22 Play 3+4, I get the proper routing in the Lynx mixer. If you look at MIX2.jpg, you can see the signal is properly routed to the P03 and P04 Outputs. I am also using digital loopback on the sound card, so that is why you see signal on Play 3+4 on the Record/Play page.

However, when I switch to ASIO (ASIO.jpg) and select 3+4 and then look at the corresponding routing on the Lynx mixer (MIX1.jpg), you can see it is still stuck on routing to P01 and P02 outputs. I tried changing the various channel selections in the Device drop down list, but it does not properly route, and remains stuck on Play 1+2, no matter what I select.

This normally is not a problem, except I am doing some loopback testing and need to be able to route JRiver to 3+4 on the Lynx mixer.

So I went back to WASAPI and tried playing a 24/96 tune and ran into the error that is WASAPI Error.jpg. I did not include the next dialog which indicated that 24/48 was supported and would you like to change that. When I tried a tune that was 24/48, another dialog came up and said that format was not supported, but 16/44 was...

Maybe I am missing something? I also put in a support call to the Lynx forum , but have not heard anything yet.

Regards

Mitchco · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:01:03 pm »

Attaching ASIO pair.zip

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:22:25 pm »

Mitchco, are you saying WASAPI doesn't work after you play with ASIO? What if you restart Media Center?

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:34:04 pm »

Quote from: Mitchco on February 24, 2012, 06:59:42 pm

However, when I switch to ASIO (ASIO.jpg) and select 3+4 and then look at the corresponding routing on the Lynx mixer (MIX1.jpg), you can see it is still stuck on routing to P01 and P02 outputs. I tried changing the various channel selections in the Device drop down list, but it does not properly route, and remains stuck on Play 1+2, no matter what I select.

For ASIO, you fill in 'Channel offset' to change the start channel. Is this what you are doing?

Mitchco · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:58:24 pm »

Quote from: Matt on February 24, 2012, 07:34:04 pm

For ASIO, you fill in 'Channel offset' to change the start channel. Is this what you are doing?

BAM! fixed, thanks so much Matt!

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:00:02 pm »

Matt/Jim,

I made contact with RME and they walked me thru a procedure to check my card and driver install. Their DigiCheck tool is designed to test all sorts of things on the entire RME card family. Anyway - the test they had me perform is to change the sample rate of the card between 44.1khz and 96khz (with ASIO) in real time to see if any strange pauses occur - and none do. I can use this tool to seamlessly switch between sample rates instantaneously with no delays, freezes or any other problems.

They are telling me that if this test passes - MC itself is causing this oddball condition. And - respectfully - I am leaning towards believing them. To wit:

After the DIGICheck test passed - I performed another test using the identical FLAC files (that I am attempting to play in MC) and brought them in Wavelab 7. I have a 44.1khz FLAC file and a 96khz file. And using the same ASIO driver and the same hardware - I start the 44.1 playing and then stick the cursor into the other window and hit play on the 96 khz file and playback (and sample rate switch) is instant. I have the RME tray applet up as well - which shows sample and clock rate in real time and the sample rate changes between 44.1 and 96 as fast as I can switch between tracks in Wavelab. No delays, no pauses and no freezes.

Would like to know next steps or what we can do to find out what's going on in MC...

Cheers,

VP

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:33:44 pm »

I just ran another series via 17.0.95 and the freezing remains. If you would like me to email the log - please let me know.

Cheers,

VP

Matt · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2012, 09:43:42 pm »

Quote from: Vocalpoint on February 25, 2012, 12:33:44 pm

I just ran another series via 17.0.95 and the freezing remains. If you would like me to email the log - please let me know.

Cheers,

VP

Please email the logs to logs at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2012, 03:39:52 am »

I have a similar problem, but I do not know whether it is hardware or software related. Two things have changed, which is why I am not sure. New computer, and reinstalled my external audio card (Lynx = PCI expansion card). And updated MC17 to .091/.095. Some time during the last week playback of multichannel 24/96 is broken. By "broken" I mean that playback starts as normal, even if the duration counter counts up wrong or really non-continuous. After some time - from two seconds to 2 minutes - a strange sound is heard and everything goes silent. Playback starts as normal again when pressing the play button. The problem is repeatable.

It occurs always when using JRSS to upmix from 24/96 5.1 to 7.1.
Some more testing is needed to identify if it happens to native 5.1 playback without upmixing.
Muting the extra channels in the upmixed output does not make a difference.
This is not e.g. a clip protection issue in my hardware. The Lynx mixer does never send out a high signal, and there are no alarm leds or similar to idicate hardware errors.
Stereo 24/96 plays fine. When using JRSS to upmix to 2.1, the problem comes back.
Resampling multichannel 24/96 to any other sample rate seems to make the problem go away, but that is not a desired path.
All other source sample rates seem fine.

My first thought was that my audio card somehow was damaged. But this does not ad up with the fact that restarting playback everything seems normal, and also the fact that the problem occurs after some considerable time.

My system is Core i7, LynxTwo/Aurora8 directly into power amps.

Is it possible that there is something with the 96kHz playback that has changed lately?

jaynyc · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2012, 12:39:24 am »

Windows 7 64
RME Multiface

I am trying to achieve Bit Perfect playback without freeze ups.

Output mode: have tried Wasapi, Wasapi Event, and ASIO
DSP & Output format: all rates set to No Change, Bit Depth set to Source

If I start MC17, and play a 16/44 track, it plays fine and the blue indicator lights so I know I am getting Bit Perfect.
I can play any number of 16/44 at this point without issue.
However, if, while playing a 16/44 track, I double click on a 24/96 track, MC17 appears to load the track but never actually plays.
I have to click the STOP button, then double click the file again and then it plays, and I do also get the blue indicator for bit perfect.

So I know my hardware can play tracks of different bit depths and sample rates, HOWEVER, why does JRiver freeze up when first trying to play a track with a different sample rate than what I am currently playing?

Any guidance greatly appreciated.

--jay

jaynyc · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2012, 12:55:12 am »

I am having the EXACT same problem-- RME Multiface. MC requires I hit STOP when trying to play a track with a different sample rate than what I am playing.

JimH · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2012, 06:20:13 am »

Try the option for 24 bit data in a 32 bit package.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:04:39 am »

I continue to have this problem again now with 17.0.129...it was working and now - even when hitting stop - I get a dead freeze.

I will generate some logs and get them out to dev today.

Cheers!

VP

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:30:56 am »

Quote from: jaynyc on April 20, 2012, 12:39:24 am

So I know my hardware can play tracks of different bit depths and sample rates, HOWEVER, why does JRiver freeze up when first trying to play a track with a different sample rate than what I am currently playing?

It's likely that it is the device not responding.

Try upsampling everything.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2012, 08:08:53 am »

Quote from: JimH on April 20, 2012, 07:30:56 am

It's likely that it is the device not responding.

My "device" works fine in every other app that uses it. I can switch between sample rates on the fly with no issues. Only MC freezes...so I am skeptical that the device is not responding.

If that was the case - this off freeze would occur in every app when switching sample rates.

VP

JimH · « **Reply #20 on:** April 20, 2012, 08:36:41 am »

Quote from: Vocalpoint on April 20, 2012, 08:08:53 am

My "device" works fine in every other app that uses it.

That may only mean the conditions that trigger the bug do not occur in another app. It isn't proof that the driver is bug free.

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** April 20, 2012, 08:55:17 am »

I have emailed RME three times about this issue in the last month. They do not write back.

Here's the most recent, sent on 4/18:

Quote

Hi,

We have been receiving reports of problems with ASIO sample rate
switching on RME hardware in JRiver Media Center.

JRiver is the leading audiophile solution on Windows. More here:
http://www.jriver.com/index.html
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/JRiver-Media-Center-17-Detail

Would you be willing to direct this to your ASIO driver engineer?

Would you like to exchange licenses for a piece of test hardware, so
that we can test against one another?

Thank you for your time,

Matt Ashland
CTO
JRiver, Inc.

If anyone has a way to contact them, please share.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #22 on:** April 20, 2012, 09:37:39 am »

Quote from: Matt on April 20, 2012, 08:55:17 am

If anyone has a way to contact them, please share.

Matt,

Check your email for RME contact coming your way shortly.

Cheers,

VP

Matt · « **Reply #23 on:** April 20, 2012, 10:17:32 am »

Quote from: Vocalpoint on April 20, 2012, 09:37:39 am

Check your email for RME contact coming your way shortly.

Thank you.

jaynyc · « **Reply #24 on:** April 20, 2012, 10:25:05 am »

Just to add a little more color here
--I can confirm this issue exists whether MC is set to ASIO, Wasapi, or Wasapi Event Style.
--This also happened with MC15 (when I started with MC) and MC16 as I never could get Bit Perfect to work for all sample rates
--Of course, with MC's very high quality SRC, I can re-sample all sample rates to a fixed value and then MC plays all tracks without incident (what I have been doing)

The catalyst for my involvement is that I am changing my setup and wanted to achieve Bit Perfect for all sample rates.

Matt · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2012, 05:19:13 pm »

I heard from RME today. I'm hopeful we'll be able to work together to get to the bottom of the issue.

Matt · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2012, 02:29:29 pm »

RME has been really great to work with on this.

The issue is that the RME driver issues a hardware reset shortly after opening. JRiver didn't support hardware resets (this is the first device I've seen use it).

RME is updating their drivers to not do a reset.

And this build of Media Center adds support for resets:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/MediaCenter170135.exe

So it'll be fixed twice. Feedback appreciated on the build above.

Thanks to VocalPoint and RME for all their help.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2012, 02:59:39 pm »

Quote from: Matt on April 25, 2012, 02:29:29 pm

RME has been really great to work with on this.

The issue is that the RME driver issues a hardware reset shortly after opening. JRiver didn't support hardware resets (this is the first device I've seen use it).

RME is updating their drivers to not do a reset.

And this build of Media Center adds support for resets:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/MediaCenter170135.exe

So it'll be fixed twice. Feedback appreciated on the build above.

Thanks to VocalPoint and RME for all their help.

And I would like to personally thank Matt for his help on the MC side of things.

This series of fixes happened with lightning fast efficiency...nice to see two vendors being able to work in sync like this.

I am testing this build now and have run into a couple of things - have forwarded them to you Matt.

Cheers!

VP

jaynyc · « **Reply #28 on:** May 24, 2012, 02:22:22 am »

checking in to see what the status is on this. I am running MC 17.0.147 and still experiencing freezes as above.

Do I need

a) a newer build of MC17
b) the updated RME drivers when they are released
c) both

?

Thank you

Matt · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2012, 01:40:17 pm »

Quote from: jaynyc on May 24, 2012, 02:22:22 am

checking in to see what the status is on this. I am running MC 17.0.147 and still experiencing freezes as above.

The support for hardware resets was added some time ago.

But please try the latest, due to this change:

17.0.157 (5/18/2012)
Changed: Audio playback loads and unloads output plugins from the same thread to prevent issues with drivers that didn't like different creation and destruction threads.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: V17.0.x: 24/96 Files Freeze using RME Multiface (WASAPI or ASIO) (Read 5761 times)