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[Urbanito]

I am being thinking on a way of making simpler the understanding of MC. Being the best, it is also a bit complicate to handle it well.
So, my idea that I am proposing is to CREATE A BEGUINNERS FORUM, where we could post more basic questions and receive easier answers.
I have to confess that, sometimes the answers assume that the knowledge of the beginners and even more experience ones is quite deep. And it is not.
On the other hand, the answers are quite quick and difficult to understand.
Lately, since I have MC i am trying to "sell" it to my friends. A couple of them already tried the Trial Version, but they keep phoning me for a lot of small problems.
DPreview, a photography site, created a forum for beginners wit a lot of success.
I would like to hear about.

[BryanC]

The wiki should cover most of the basics.

[glynor]

I think part of the problem with that (or any new board) is that they'd split their users, and then expert users won't be as likely to stumble in and answer those questions.

And, you can end up with the blind leading the blind.

[Urbanito]

Couldn't some of the experts volunteer for this on a monthly basis?
Or any other way?
On Dpreview the proposal came from the experts in order to avoid a mix a questions, some very basic, others quite difficult and advanced.
Couldn't be created a moderator who will try to get support from some of the experts? And, since the questions will be from beginners, sometimes it will be not necessary an answer from the experts.
For this purpose, beginner could also be the question and not necessary the ones that post them.
Best wishes.

[Scolex]

I agree with Glynor on the segregation possibly not working well.
If there is one thing I have learned over the years of being a forum user it is the level of detail given in a reply is up to the original poster.
People that I have seen that basically open with I need you to hold my hand cause I don't know anything get a very detailed response.
People that just simply say how do you do this don't get much detail, obviously there are exceptions.

I generally base the level of detail on both the question detail and the number of posts the user has. I tend to err on the less detailed side
though as I would rather add more detail if needed than insult someones intelligence.

[glynor]

That and subject lines count a LOT.

I don't mark every thread as "read".

[Urbanito]

It was just an idea and a proposal.
I will not insist, even if I think that it could be very useful.

[MrHaugen]

I agree with Scolex. This is a better way than spreading the posts even more. The more forums the more messy it get's in my opinion.

[Urbanito]

The idea was not spread, but concentrate. Concentrate on the basis of knowledge, revealed by the person itself, self considering a beginner or/ and by the nature of the question.
It will be interesting if some of the beginners could come to express their opinions.

[rick.ca]

I'm sure many beginners would like the idea. I can't speak for other experienced users, but I would likely ignore it. I may not succeed, but I always do my best to respond in a way potentially useful to the OP and other readers. The OP's number of posts and nature of question usually provide a reasonable indicator of their level of experience and understanding. Their choice of where to post won't add much.

It's always more satisfying helping someone who is not afraid to ask, listen and try or consider the advice given. If there were a beginners forum, I wouldn't judge anyone for using it, but I'm generally not motivated to help anyone who seems to be declaring, "I'm special, incapable of learning, and in need of spoon feeding." Or unable to appreciate I might benefit from the exchange as much as they do. Some of my best ideas for my own library come from beginners who were willing to discuss their issue, rather than just expect a simple direct answer to a question.

It's understandable some beginners may be reluctant to post here because of the number of topics beyond their understanding. But it's still pretty clear this is the place for them to ask. I don't recall ever seeing a beginner asking a beginners question treated as if they shouldn't be asking it here. Sometimes it takes a while for a question to be answered (and sometimes never if it's not understood), but that will only be made worse by fragmenting the forum.

[glynor]

It was just an idea and a proposal.
I will not insist, even if I think that it could be very useful.

Just so you know... I wasn't knocking your idea.  Things like it (though I don't think exactly this) have been proposed before.  And Jim does like to create sub-boards on the forum sometimes, so you could get your wish.

I just think it might end up being a bit counter-productive.

For example, there's a whole Media Network sub-board... I almost never think to open it up.  Right now, my account shows most of those threads unread.  I know I'd have things to add to the threads in there, but I only have so much time to dedicate* to Interact, and I waste most of it on the main board and the beta board (which has already split off some of the expert users a bit).  And then that's where the traffic is and so it is where I go and round and round it goes.  So, seeing how the other sub-boards often fare, I just had that worry.

One modification to your idea that could be nice might be this:

If Jim creates a "Tips and Troubleshooting" board, but keeps it LOCKED so that only he (and other JRiver folks) can post to it.  Then, when he sees a good thread wrapping up that might "qualify" as being helpful and valuable to new users (like some of the tips and tricks threads or just helpful resolutions to common problems), he can move the thread there.

That would make the threads easier to find for beginning users than buried in the forum, kind of like a user-generated FAQ drawn directly from the forum content that is already here.

He does something like this now with his Weird and Wonderful thread, but then you need to dig through a mighty thread of multiple posts, and the individual threads aren't always so well organized or labeled.

People would keep posting their questions in the regular forum, but the new Tips and Troubleshooting board would be up top and everyone (especially new users) could check there first.

That would be very helpful, I think, and wouldn't split the community more than is needed.

* Only so much time my wife will let me spend talking to the Dog, I should say.

[MrHaugen]

Yea. That's a nice idea. I'm thinking of the times where people might wonder where their post have gone though. If you know it was posted on the MC17 board, you might only search there, and end up not finding it? 

What if the moderators just COPY the helpful in-depth answers, tips, guides and walk-troughs instead of moving them? That way we could just keep a library of helpful posts in one board? I also think it might be good to just copy the questions and replays that is of any use. Whole threads can be much work to read through. Renaming threads might also be important in some cases.

[Urbanito]

I understand your points. But, if we follow that idea it will end up breaking the principal of being responsible for whatever you post (or want to say). Having someone interpreting your words represents, besides being a wrong interpretation, represent an offense: " Hi, my friend. What you have said is not what you have said (or wanted to say); what you want to say is this....)". Like a father to their children...but only in the old times, because now they don't allow it anymore...
No. my idea is of a direct contact. This will also has the advantage of creating the need to the poster of phrasing well and, above all, to think about his/her problem, before asking for support.
How can someone interpret my words, unless I ask for?

[Scolex]

Yea. That's a nice idea. I'm thinking of the times where people might wonder where their post have gone though. If you know it was posted on the MC17 board, you might only search there, and end up not finding it? 

What if the moderators just COPY the helpful in-depth answers, tips, guides and walk-troughs instead of moving them? That way we could just keep a library of helpful posts in one board? I also think it might be good to just copy the questions and replays that is of any use. Whole threads can be much work to read through. Renaming threads might also be important in some cases.

The not finding it is not a concern since Jim being the primary mover of items is very good about leaving the original url there and just adding a link that opens in the same tab/window to the post.
Simply copying would waste server space and is not needed due to the above.

[Scolex]

Jaoa or is it Joao (SORRY)
I think you are misunderstanding what he is proposing. He simply means that once a thread is complete/solved the moderators would either move or copy it to a read only forum for reference. The posts would originally be placed in their respective category. Over time such a forum would turn into a very detailed FAQ.
I think ideally they would be well served to add a meta tagging system for such a forum and modify the search engine to use those tags and improve the search results.

[MrHaugen]

The not finding it is not a concern since Jim being the primary mover of items is very good about leaving the original url there and just adding a link that opens in the same tab/window to the post.
Simply copying would waste server space and is not needed due to the above.

True. But it's not always the subject you're after. I often search in the whole thread for known words or phrases to find what I know have been posted in a specific forum. It could be a problem, but probably a small one. And people will be increasingly aware of the need of adding this forum to their searches.

[Scolex]

The forum would be searchable and if my above "I think ideally...." comment in reply 14 were implemented the search results would be greatly improved.
I have to add that I personally think that the forum search leaves a lot to be desired and I use the Google search site function frequently.

[Urbanito]

Sean:
It is Joao.
I understood the point that you stressed (?), but I really don't agree.
Jim is indeed an outstanding moderator, but he can't do everything.
I would like to make mine MrHougen words, to add to my argument.
And more: when I ask a question, most of the experts give me an answer that confuses me even more, since they assume that I know much more than I really do.
This is why your support has been so outstanding, as well as the one provided by Bill.
What is a pity is that others with the same problem very seldom can take advantage of the support.
A beginners forum, or a sub-beginners forum will put on the same place the same type of questions and answers.
As soon as us, the beginners learn the basics and even more, we will move to the regular forums or could assist on the beginners one.
My intention keeping feeding this subject is not to win anything, but to help MC to win something I think it is a "minus" point and is based on my own and some friends difficulties.
Kind regards,
Joao

[preproman]

On Dpreview the proposal came from the experts in order to avoid a mix a questions

Urbanito,

I totally agree with your request.  This a great idea.  As we can see a model has been set.  It has also been proven to add value on the Dpreview forums.  So to say this won't work is not a fact, when it has been proven to work.  

I think a lot of the MC Beta Team just lacks customer service skills and don't really have a full understanding of the concept.  We have MC beta Team members who would verbally attack users - literally.  With such sayings as "I'm special, incapable of learning, and in need of spoon feeding." referring to the customers.  Just Bad.

On this main forum, soooo many questions get asked. If I ask a question at 9:00am by 12:00pm if it has not been commented on it may get put on the next page and never get addressed.  where on a separate board it has a chance to be seen by someone who logs in later in the day.

Have we ever heard of the phrase "Divide and Conquer"?  That's what this would be doing in a way.

Customer Service is more than just answering a question.  It's taking the time to show "A beginner" a step by step process - if needed.  To make sure that he/she fully understands.  Also, by being on a separate board, more beginners would be able to see more answers of some of the same questions when first starting out.

Good Idea Urbanito.
 

[JimH]

preproman,
I apologize for those who have been less courteous than they should be.  When I see those kinds of remarks, I remove them.

Jim

[glynor]

I think a lot of the MC Beta Team just lacks customer service skills and don't really have a full understanding of the concept.  We have MC beta Team members who would verbally attack users - literally.  With such sayings as "I'm special, incapable of learning, and in need of spoon feeding." referring to the customers.  Just Bad.

To be clear, we are not employees of JRiver.  You are not our customers.  I have plenty of my own customers, thanks.  We are regular people just like you, donating our free time to help improve something we love.  We've just been doing it a long time, or have some other special skill to contribute.

That's not to say that I think it is okay to be rude or to "attack" anyone, and I try my best not to even err on that side (but we all have bad days or too much wine every so often).  I often, when I have time, try to do a very good job.  But I have a full time (60+ hour a week) job too of my own, and I'm usually trolling interact late at night after my wife has gone to bed, or around breaks at the office.

But, it is an important distinction...  When you see someone who's "title" on the forum is NOT Administrator, that is just some other customer, same as you.

On this main forum, soooo many questions get asked. If I ask a question at 9:00am by 12:00pm if it has not been commented on it may get put on the next page and never get addressed.  where on a separate board it has a chance to be seen by someone who logs in later in the day.

I agree that can be a problem.

If you don't get an answer, try "bumping" your thread a little later.  It can also help to add additional details or troubleshooting steps you may have taken.  Quite often I read threads here and don't comment because the original poster wrote a confusing post, or one with no where near enough information, and I don't even know how to begin answering their question (or how to even determine what the question means).  Rephrasing and adding more information both brings the post back up to the top of the board, and it gives everyone new insights into the issue.

Have we ever heard of the phrase "Divide and Conquer"?  That's what this would be doing in a way.

Again, I feel like that's exactly the problem.  I'm afraid that it would be dividing us (and so conquering yourselves, not the problems).  But, I've said my piece.  It won't ruin my cheerios if it is done.

I think something moderated would be more useful and more searchable.

[preproman]

Like it was said before.  This is a proven model that adds value to a forum like this.  To be crystal clear we are all customers to JRiver.  Never said we was customers of gylor or of the MC beta team, none the less we are customers - paid customers at that. Thank you.

If this is done with success else where, who are we to say that it won't work here? 

I do understand your support is done on purely volunteer bases (when you have the time) - I know that and believe me and I think I may speak for most of us.  I really do appreciate all you do.

The point of this is - It can be done better and more efficient.  Also done with the beginner in mind.  Yes some beginners need their hands held - simple as that.

[MrC]

The term "beginner" is too broad and undefined.  Many of the issues stem from users not understanding Windows, or computers, or file systems, or networks, etc.  Or "beginner" can mean an expert in one MC area, but entirely without knowledge or understanding in another.

Communication is a process, a give and take with refinement, until minds meet.  The process cannot be perfect, and communication naturally entails several miscommunications.  Each helper cannot instantly step into the mind and psyche of each helpee; some helpers sometimes error on the side of brevity, and at other times may be more instructive and guiding.

The name of a forum Board does not change this process; rather, it only changes the audience.

[Urbanito]

Hi Jim:
Is there any possibility for MC to have some people paid to help the others?
A fee, a symbolic amount, anything?
With the increase number of customers I foresee if MC is a little bit more friendly, I think that MC will have a financial benefits, besides lots of happier customers.
Best regards,
Joao

[Scolex]

For me any number of sub-boards would not make a difference, I use the "Show unread posts since last visit" 99.9% of the time.
With a beginner's board I may stumble onto a post in the unread list and then respond to it without even realizing it is that board
I have done this a few time with questions asked about MJ. With that in mind if the question is not detailed I might not realize they
are a "beginner" and give a brief answer when they need quite a bit of detail.

I won't speculate whether it would help or not but I agree with MrC that beginner is a very broad term and the quality of response
starts with the quality of the question.

[Urbanito]

Why don't we try to agree on the word beginner instead of using the possible lack of a precise agreement, to avoid the need for creating the Forum? Or use another word, if this one represents a problem?
But the concept is there and, in my opinion, a real need to tackle it.
Joao

[Scolex]

Is there any possibility for MC to have some people paid to help the others?
A fee, a symbolic amount, anything?
With the increase number of customers I foresee if MC is a little bit more friendly, I think that MC will have a financial benefits, besides lots of happier customers.
Best regards,
Joao

I don't see how this could work, it would only take resources away from development, and how do you decide who receives compensation and who doesn't.
For me personally just the feeling I get when I am able to help someone is payment enough. I am a selfish helper I do it to raise my own self worth as I think
many do even if they don't realize it.

[Scolex]

Why don't we try to agree on the word beginner instead of using the possible lack of a precise agreement, to avoid the need for creating the Forum? Or use another word, if this one represents a problem?
But the concept is there and, in my opinion, a real need to tackle it.
Joao

A getting started board may make more sense.

Something like this

Getting Started
New to Media Center or need basic help with a feature post here.

[MrC]

Urbanito, when you read this post:

   Getting Started

Did it help give guidance in posting and getting assistance?

[JimH]

A getting started board may make more sense.  Something like this

Getting Started
New to Media Center or need basic help with a feature post here.

We already have a lot of helpful resources -- if people read them.  These are in my signature, for example:

Getting Started    Up and Running    FAQ    Weird problems    License Info   Wiki

The FAQ is right at the top of the MC17 board and its topic is "*** Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) -- Read this first ***".  It does get read.  Around 250,000 times so far. 

Sometimes, adding more information can just confuse people.

[Urbanito]

Hello MrC:
It helped, but it doesn't answer some concrete questions witch are important sometimes and have a very concrete "how to?"
I know that it is difficult to create a new Forum and the fear to create more confusion is very real and understandable.
However I think from the beginning that the support service should be more personal. Why not to rethink the way it is organized and cut somethings that went too far?
I already learned quite a bit of MC, but I also know that I just scratched the surface.
Without wanting to use this post for another purpose, I am stocked by a problem of an album, not ripped, were the track's information is all lost. They, the tracks, have all the same name.
It is hard to search if this was already posted. At least, I must confess that I don't know how to do it. Will it not be nice to have a place were to ask the question and receive a quick answer. And than keep a very simple data system with the more basic questions and answers?
Kind regards
Joao

[rick.ca]

Is there any possibility for MC to have some people paid to help the others? A fee, a symbolic amount, anything?

When the forum software is updated to SMF 2.0, it will be possible to add the SMF Likes Pro Mod. A 'likes' system would be the most democratic way to recognize the efforts of members, whether for helping beginners or assisting with complex issues. And it could still provide a basis for rewarding some of them periodically (e.g., with a credit towards next upgrade) if JRiver chooses to do so.

While providing a method of recognizing helpers, the larger benefit would be (from the mod's description)...

This wonderful mod will give your community a "Likes Tree". It gives your users an instant "birds-eye-view" of the "Likes" distribution in a topic, allowing you to easily identify the most useful/important content, no matter how many posts are involved. This new feature allows people to extract more value out of forums in less time.

In other words, it should make it easier to find the most helpful topics and the most helpful posts within a topic. It even adds 'likes' as a criteria to the forum Search. Or, you could 'like' every post you think is most useful to beginners (and nothing else), then tell your friends to look at the posts you've 'liked'.

[rick.ca]

Will it not be nice to have a place were to ask the question and receive a quick answer.

Sure it would be nice. But I don't believe that would be the result of creating a separate forum. It would more likely result in slower response times (because fewer users are reading it) and a greater likelihood of inaccurate or incomplete answers (because fewer advanced users are reading it).

And than keep a very simple data system with the more basic questions and answers?

This is partially addressed by the suggestion in my previous post. Also, if there were a way to objectively identify topics 'with the more basic questions and answers' (I don't think there is), that can be done by 'tagging' the subjects (i.e., a moderator can add a '[BEGINNERS]' tag to the subject of the first post). That would make them easier to find without fragmenting the audience.

[preproman]

When the forum software is updated to SMF 2.0, it will be possible to add the SMF Likes Pro Mod. A 'likes' system would be the most democratic way to recognize the efforts of members, whether for helping beginners or assisting with complex issues. And it could still provide a basis for rewarding some of them periodically (e.g., with a credit towards next upgrade) if JRiver chooses to do so.

While providing a method of recognizing helpers, the larger benefit would be (from the mod's description)...

In other words, it should make it easier to find the most helpful topics and the most helpful posts within a topic. It even adds 'likes' as a criteria to the forum Search. Or, you could 'like' every post you think is most useful to beginners (and nothing else), then tell your friends to look at the posts you've 'liked'.

Rick,

This is a good idea - good find on this one.

[preproman]

Sure it would be nice. But I don't believe that would be the result of creating a separate forum. It would more likely result in slower response times (because fewer users are reading it) and a greater likelihood of inaccurate or incomplete answers (because fewer advanced users are reading it).

There are facts that disagree with this.  The fact is that this has been done before and is being done now with success.  There is already a model out there that works.  Why not just copy it. 

You guys all are just speculating what would happen instead of looking at the data that's already out there on this same exact subject.

The data is out there and it works - that's a fact.

Urbanito did his research and brought a good idea to the table with some substance behind it.  He is bringing facts to party and you all are steady telling him it won't work?  What facts do you have that this won't work?  NONE.  Instead of saying I'm willing to give it a shot - you'll just shoot it down with out even looking at the data. 

Do some research.

[glynor]

You guys all are just speculating what would happen instead of looking at the data that's already out there on this same exact subject.

The data is out there and it works - that's a fact.

I didn't want to wade in on this again.  Like I said, I've said my piece and it isn't up to any of us anyway.  But this statement (seemingly somewhat angry, though maybe I'm misreading the tone) is just not supported by the evidence.

Those forums are not this forum.  What works there may, or may not, work well here.  There are a million variables that can all interplay to impact these kinds of results.  Do we have the same number of active expert users?  What is their ratio of active novice to expert users?  Is the topic at hand as readily segregated into "novice" versus "advanced" topic categories?  Do they have a strong and widely dispersed mod community (we have Jim)?  Do they have posted, strictly enforced "forum rules"?  What kind of people frequent the forum?  What range of topics are those people interested in?  Do they have a paid support staff that manages the content of the forum (moving misplaced posts and whatnot)?

I have years and years of experience watching various things that have been attempted in this vein on JRiver's Interact.

If you can point us to a peer-reviewed article scientifically proving that this tactic works well across all kinds of internet forums, then I think we'd shut up.  I doubt any such research exists, and if it did, I'd bet you $50 that it would say that the results depend almost entirely on the community in question.  Otherwise, stop telling us that we're absolutely, positively wrong.  None of us knows unless it is tried.

[Scolex]

Do some research.

I did!
I looked at dpreview yesterday but didn't comment but I am going to now.
IMO it does not work well there as many of the post have nothing to do with the basics of photography.
Just a quick scan of the titles shows that the variation of questions is vast and some of them are simply asking for opinions.
I am not saying there aren't any true beginner questions because I am sure there are.

Did you go look at the board before telling us we were wrong?  I am guessing no.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1002

[glynor]

I know dpreview well.  I've long-been an active lurker there.

Agreed.  I'd say it has had the most success at keeping novice questions out of the advanced forums (because mods angrily move them and there is a nicely labeled place for them), but I don't know that it has been a huge success at increasing the quality of responses to novice questions.  Maybe somewhat?

But that community is way different from Interact.  It is a totally different kind of site, in fact.  They cover a huge range of different products from different vendors, and it is, essentially, a news and reviews site.  Interact is a support forum for one product.  Not the same thing at all.

EDIT:  I should add, since additional comments probably make it seem like I'm all worked up about the topic.  I'm not.  At all.  My reaction if Jim had come in and said "Sure, good idea!" and done it?

Shrug.  Meh.  We'll see if it works. 

[rick.ca]

Do some research.

What glynor said, plus...

What are you suggesting? That we refrain from thinking and using common sense, even when the results of that are expressed as 'I believe...'? Sorry, but I also believe that's a prerequisite for any meaningful 'research'. Most of what is discussed here are 'just' ideas, even if some of those ideas have concrete applications. In any case, there's no intrinsic requirement to support every idea with research. Aside from original research (e.g., 'I tested this, and this is what I found...'), most research that's offered in support of an idea doesn't mean much anyway. It just introduces another notion that can't be proven—that the research is applicable to and supports the idea.

Of course, I offer no research in support of this. If you don't like or are unable to understand my idea or opinion, please ignore it and/or express your own.

PS. I see glynor has already refuted your research-based conclusion using common sense. QED. Way to go, glynor!

[glynor]

Hey... Speaking of forums with rigid hierarchies and active mods.  Has anyone been over to AVSforums lately?  I hadn't been in a while (I know, slacking), and the new design flabbergasted me.

I like it.

In some ways, it makes me sad.  AVS is supposed to be geeky.  It was kind-of fun how.... Ugly and old-school and BBS-like it was.  It made me smile sometimes, but it also made the site obnoxious to read.  I'll probably lurk over there more often again now, instead of just mining it for stuff I need to know.

Also, I know this probably happened months ago (like I said, I know, slacking), so don't email me.

[JimH]

Timeout.  Closing this thread for the night.