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Author Topic: Attempting HTPC build  (Read 5102 times)

twom17

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Attempting HTPC build
« on: July 02, 2012, 02:44:40 pm »

I’m a bit over my head but I’m attempting my first build.  My goal is bit-perfect audio, 1080p 3D video playback and live TV recording with an increasingly extensive library maintained on the system.  Everything will be run through my Onkyo 709 receiver and out to my Panasonic Plasma and Monitor Audio speakers.  The processor and motherboard I’ve picked out are probably a bit more than I need but with the processor I’m thinking about needs in the future.  And with the motherboard the line for audio is isolated to decrease interference.  I’m hoping this will negate the need for a discrete sound card and/or an external DAC until I can afford one (if at all).  Any thoughts or suggested changes are appreciated.

Here’s what I’ve put together so far with a budget of $1,000 give or take:

Intel Core i5-3570k 3.4
ASUS Maximus V Gene Micro ATX Motherboard
Samsung 830 SSD (for the operating system)
Samsung EcoGreen F4 2TB 3.5 SATA 3.00Gb/s HDD
G. Skill Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2x4) DDR 1600
LITE-ON Black 12x Blue-ray Burner with Blu Ray 3D Feature
SeaSonic SS-300 Bronze 300W Power Supply
Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 Dual TV Tuner
TP-LINK TL-WN722N USB 2.0 WiFi Adapter
Silverstone GD05B Micro ATX case

Thanks all.
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hulkss

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 04:01:01 pm »

No 3D support from JRiver yet. I would use ArcSoft TotalMedia Theater for 3D.
Not sure if Intel HD4000 graphics will play 1080p 3D at 120 Hz.
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twom17

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 05:14:06 pm »

Thanks, hulkss.  I didnt realize JRiver didnt support 3D.  Regarding refresh rate, my biggest concern is the supposed inability of the HD4000 to refresh at a perfect 23.976.   I think I remember reading that there is an extra frame inserted every 40 seconds or so.  Some people notice a judder, others dont...
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Scolex

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 05:47:38 pm »

Yeah when playing at 24fps 1 frame out of every 1000 has to be inserted 23.976 vs 24fps is 1.001 or .999 speed.
I Think I read that this was fixed with Ivy are you sure you aren't thinking of HD3000 Sandy.
I would be interested in the sound quality of the Asus Max V Gene. A review from a HTPC user's prospective would be nice.

I would get a PSU with more headroom just in case you want or need to add a discrete graphics card later on.
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Sean

twom17

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 06:02:23 pm »

That's good advice, Scolex.  I'll definitely look into a higher wattage psu.  I imagine 500w would be plenty?

I had a problem finding good reviews on the refresh of Ivy.  If I'm remembering right, it seemed the issue was improved but not perfected.  

When I get things up and running, I'll definitely post a review of the audio from the mobo.
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Zenith

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 07:07:01 am »

I think that your build will not use more that 120watt in full. So you have about 200watt spare for the discrete graphic...is quite good amount for the typical htpc discrete like hd 6450, gt 430 or hd7750

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/HD_7750/24.html

A bigger psu usually means less efficiency on low loads

I5 seems to me a little too much. i3 ( or even g620) is enough. Imo investing in cpu power for the future in not a good investment. Future is always different and htpc use very low cpu resource ;)
If we look at windows 8 and other software development it seems that GPU will gain more importance than cpu...and here in the forum the heaviest cpu usage that I know on a i5 is 20%...

Thanks, hulkss.  I didnt realize JRiver didnt support 3D.  Regarding refresh rate, my biggest concern is the supposed inability of the HD4000 to refresh at a perfect 23.976.   I think I remember reading that there is an extra frame inserted every 40 seconds or so.  Some people notice a judder, others dont...

No one can do 24p consistently well.
Ivy is not improved over Sandy, the best that intel can do now is 23.973 that is near what the other gpu makers offer:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333324/lets-set-this-straight-no-one-can-do-24p-consistently-well

That means 1 frame drop every ~5 min.
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glynor

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 07:53:25 am »

I think that your build will not use more that 120watt in full. So you have about 200watt spare for the discrete graphic...is quite good amount for the typical htpc discrete like hd 6450, gt 430 or hd7750

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/HD_7750/24.html

A bigger psu usually means less efficiency on low loads.

I agree with this.  The Seasonic is a good PSU, though the difference in efficiency between their 300w and ~450w isn't going to be this much.  Depending on the discreet card that you grab, you might want to go a little higher just to give yourself extra headroom.

You probably don't have to, but if you might want a discreet GPU, I might look for a 400w Seasonic.

I'd, personally, go with the Ivy 3570K, just like you picked.  Ivy is improved over Sandy in a number of ways, and the HD4000 GPU is way better than all of the other Intel iGPUs (just perhaps not when it comes to video playback as much).  Sandy was a better overclocker (or, at least, Ivy isn't dramatically improved), but it is far more power efficient and it does get a nice IPC boost over Sandy too.  As far as the GPU, I'd still get a discreet card though, if it was me.

Word is, Nvidia is getting ready to launch a new Kepler based midrange card: http://techreport.com/discussions.x/23339
AMD's lower-end 7000 series cards are also very nice.

Otherwise, that build looks VERY nice.
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Zenith

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 08:08:25 am »

In order to get the most power efficient system is important that the idle loads falls around 20% of minimum load of the psu.
This because 80 plus psu certification ask manufacturers guarantee a minimum efficiency of 80% or more that load...but nothing is asked on 5%-10% load

80 PLUS Certification    115V Internal Non-Redundant    230V Internal Redundant
% of Rated Load--10%    20%    50%    100%    10%    20%    50%    100%
80 PLUS-------------    80%    80%    80%            N/A
80 PLUS Bronze------    82%    85%    82%    ---    81%    85%    81%
80 PLUS Silver-------    85%    88%    85%    ---    85%    89%    85%
80 PLUS Gold--------    87%    90%    87%    ---    88%    92%    88%
80 PLUS Platinum----    90%    92%    89%    ---    90%    94%    91%
80 PLUS Titanium----    ---    ---    ---    90%    94%    96%    91%

Usually under that load efficiency drop at 70% or even less for 5%. If you get a 500w on a i5 it means that it will stay most of time in idle using only 10% of total load with the lowest efficiency your power supply can offer. It's not unusual to see power usage tests that are completely ruined using 1000watt power supply even if is 80+  gold..

Guidelines and protocol:
I think that the perfect htpc cpu will come in october...but this another story  ;)
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glynor

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 12:38:32 pm »

In order to get the most power efficient system is important that the idle loads falls around 20% of minimum load of the psu.
This because 80 plus psu certification ask manufacturers guarantee a minimum efficiency of 80% or more that load...but nothing is asked on 5%-10% load

That is true of most run-of-the-mill PSUs, but he said the magic word: Seasonic.

While I don't have reviews of that particular PSU (because hardly anyone does rigorous performance testing of low-end models), most of Seasonic's PSUs vastly overperform the specs at low-loads.  For example, their current Platinum Series 860w model does ~80% at 5% load, and the older Gold series were quite good as well.  Besides... How much difference in the real world is the difference between a 300w @ 80% and a 400w at 75%?  Maybe $4 over a year?  Of course, if you're doing it for the planet, that's fine, but you'd probably be better served saving your pennies for a windmill or something.

In any case, if you aren't going with a discreet GPU, you don't need much of a PSU at all.  I'd still go for a Seasonic though, as I've found them to be VASTLY longer-lived, quieter, and more stable than any other manufacturer I've tried.  PSU stability problems are COMMON, and people never know it because they never check their systems under load.

Sometimes, you get what you pay for.  That's not the main reason I commented though...

I think that the perfect htpc cpu will come in october...but this another story  ;)

This is why I really commented.  This type of sentiment is very common, and it mildly annoys me... The perfect HTPC CPU for your needs, perhaps.  It all depends on what you want to do with it.  Many people, granted, look at a HTPC like you are, and that is fine if that's what you're going for.

I, however, have zero interest in an underpowered but small HTPC.  I want the HTPC in my house to be among the most powerful computers in my house, not the least.  It needs to be in a full-sized ATX case (though doesn't necessarily need a full-sized ATX board).  Why?  Well, a few reasons:

1. It is the machine I use more often than any other in my free time.  I want a very high-performance machine that performs without hesitation.  SSDs are an absolute requirement for me, for example.  It needs to leap at the touch of a button.

2. I play games on my HTPC.  I need to be able to fit a good sized GPU in the box, and power it.  It doesn't need to be a $500 behemoth GPU anymore because it is only driving 1080p.  But even my current AMD 6870 is starting to get a little slow at 1080p in some current games.  I have to turn down settings now and drop back on AA.  You mentioned the GT430, which is the worst possible card for me that I can think of, for example (way overpriced and underpowered).

3. It does a fair bit of on-the-fly video transcoding and compression (ripping BluRay and whatnot), and Quicksync is a piece of crap, so I need real CPU power in that case.

So, not to come off like a jerk at all... I know what you meant.  But not everyone thinks a HTPC should fit in a MiniITX box and run the slowest/lowest-power CPU you can get that still barely performs basic media playback tasks.  Opinions, and needs, on this can vary substantially.

I wouldn't even think about using anything less than a quad-core i5 on my most-used system.  For you, one of the coming Ivy i3s might be completely sufficient (even overkill) for your needs.  One thing is often not like the other.
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glynor

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 12:55:20 pm »

And with the motherboard the line for audio is isolated to decrease interference.

I have a question for you...

If you are using it with an Onkyo TX-R709, then why do you care about the analog audio outputs on the motherboard at all?  Wouldn't you just be using the HDMI output and sending all of the audio out multichannel PCM via the HDMI?

I ask because the one spec I thought was way overkill on that build list was the particular motherboard model.  The valuable extra specs on the Maximus V Gene are almost exclusively about overclocking, but you're not going to do that in a little case like that.  So, I was skeptical about that board.  Nothing wrong with it, of course, and it does have some nice extras (like eSATA and lots of USB3 and whatnot).  But the reason it is so expensive is the RoG stuff they add to that line.

If you are going to use HDMI out for your audio anyway, which I'd almost certainly recommend over any analog onboard audio (regardless of how shielded or fancy it is), then you can save some coin and get something like the ASUS P8Z77-M Pro board.  I know Nev is happy with his, and I love my full-sized P8Z77-V Deluxe board.
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glynor

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 01:20:29 pm »

I should also mention... I really like the GSkill Ripjaws series RAM sticks, but I'm not sure which specific ones you are looking at.  There is almost ZERO performance different in the real world between different latencies in RAM, unless you are running a high end database server (and even then, the benefits are modest, and you should have ECC RAM anyway).

You want DDR3 @ 1600 @ 1.5v @ "normal" timings for that speed (CL 10 or 9 is fine for that size).  Anything more is just taking your money.  Something like this would be perfect for an 8GB set (BTW, there's a $5 off promo code on those today - EMCNCGJ43).

You probably aren't, because you mentioned @ 1600, but if you were looking at something fancy like these for double the money, then don't.  They aren't worth it at all.
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Zenith

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 01:56:15 pm »

That is true of most run-of-the-mill PSUs, but he said the magic word: Seasonic.

While I don't have reviews of that particular PSU (because hardly anyone does rigorous performance testing of low-end models), most of Seasonic's PSUs vastly overperform the specs at low-loads.  For example, their current Platinum Series 860w model does ~80% at 5% load, and the older Gold series were quite good as well.  Besides... How much difference in the real world is the difference between a 300w @ 80% and a 400w at 75%?  Maybe $4 over a year?  Of course, if you're doing it for the planet, that's fine, but you'd probably be better served saving your pennies for a windmill or something.

A super duper 80 plus gold platinum diamond oversized psu...generally cost more than right sized a good standard/bronze 80+. You'll never get back that money just on power saving.
Choosing the right size is FREE and you can choose less expensive model! ;). Anyway it is true that things are changing and even cheaper model are getting more and more efficient even in low loads

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3902/antec-earthwatts-ea-380d-green-380w/6


So, not to come off like a jerk at all... I know what you meant.  But not everyone thinks a HTPC should fit in a MiniITX box and run the slowest/lowest-power CPU you can get that still barely performs basic media playback tasks.  Opinions, and needs, on this can vary substantially.

I wouldn't even think about using anything less than a quad-core i5 on my most-used system.  For you, one of the coming Ivy i3s might be completely sufficient (even overkill) for your needs.  One thing is often not like the other.

Yes your right. Perfect cpu depends on user...but I was referring on the needs of the user who started the thread. I don't play games so I just need htpc to play films and music. I thought that twom17 had the same needs since he didn't mention games. What you said is plus or minus what I say when people start talking about zacate and atom. For me THESE are very underpowered and unusable platform.
In this scenario I wouldn't call an i3 underpowered...and yes you can even mount an ssd disk....is allowed also on i3 platform! ;)

I have a question for you...

If you are using it with an Onkyo TX-R709, then why do you care about the analog audio outputs on the motherboard at all?  Wouldn't you just be using the HDMI output and sending all of the audio out multichannel PCM via the HDMI?

Glynor is right. Don't use integrated analog go digital.
I understand what you want to do...but you need a good 2 channel amplifier and very good speaker to ear differences and most of the times external dac are superior to integrated analog audio.
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glynor

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 03:20:07 pm »

Yes your right. Perfect cpu depends on user...but I was referring on the needs of the user who started the thread. I don't play games so I just need htpc to play films and music. I thought that twom17 had the same needs since he didn't mention games. What you said is plus or minus what I say when people start talking about zacate and atom. For me THESE are very underpowered and unusable platform.
In this scenario I wouldn't call an i3 underpowered...and yes you can even mount an ssd disk....is allowed also on i3 platform! ;)

I was mostly just ranting because I see those kinds of arguments (here and at AVSForum and everywhere) all the time.  Nothing personal.  ;) ;D

And, generally, I agree about the PSU.  I was only suggesting maybe he might want to go up to a 400w PSU if (and probably only-if) he was going to seriously consider adding a discreet GPU.  Not suggesting 1000w behemoths (and, fwiw, most Superfantastic Double Platinum Cooks-You-Breakfast Edition PSUs are actually crappier than the older "non-Eco" models).  The manufacturers actually usually REMOVE components (and make them less reliable) to achieve the high efficiency ratings.

Not Seasonic, though.  I've become a big fan of theirs over the past couple of years.  You know, after my third Antec died prematurely.

All in all, though, we're totally on the same page.  People over-spec those all the time because... Bigger is better, right?
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Zenith

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Re: Attempting HTPC build
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 03:44:42 pm »

I was mostly just ranting because I see those kinds of arguments (here and at AVSForum and everywhere) all the time.  Nothing personal.  ;) ;D

I never thought  :)

And, generally, I agree about the PSU.  I was only suggesting maybe he might want to go up to a 400w PSU if (and probably only-if) he was going to seriously consider adding a discreet GPU.  Not suggesting 1000w behemoths (and, fwiw, most Superfantastic Double Platinum Cooks-You-Breakfast Edition PSUs are actually crappier than the older "non-Eco" models).  The manufacturers actually usually REMOVE components (and make them less reliable) to achieve the high efficiency ratings.

Not Seasonic, though.  I've become a big fan of theirs over the past couple of years.  You know, after my third Antec died prematurely.

All in all, though, we're totally on the same page.  People over-spec those all the time because... Bigger is better, right?

Not always, most of the time the reason to go "bigger" is that there is no a clear idea on how correctly size the hardware for the use...and can be a waste of money...
I like smart build...just good enough for their work. You don't need a Ferrari to go to the grocery store...(unless you are Paris Hilton :) )
Yes you right "enough" is relative ;)
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