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Author Topic: Improving video quality with ROHQ  (Read 5049 times)

InflatableMouse

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Improving video quality with ROHQ
« on: July 08, 2012, 01:36:37 pm »

I've been very busy with my new htpc, I've been calibrating my tv for it, saved profiles for broadcasts, MC with ROHQ and XBMC.

I followed this guide to set brightness, contrast and colors (my tv supports color filters making color cabration as good as it gets without specialised calibration equipment).

I'm very happy with the result, I think generally videos look better than they did before and especially darker scenes show more detail than they used to.

There's a downside too. It much more obvious now when a video has lower quality. Especially in dark scenes I often see the effect that looks like smudging or smearing. Imagine a guy running through a dark alley at night towards a lit street. You see the guy running and moving with the streetlights in the back, but the parts that dissapear into the darkness remain stationary. There's just a few shades of dark grey (just one or two shades lighter than black) that shimmer a bit. Turning brightness down 1 or 2 clicks and it all dissapears but then I'd also loose some detail at moments when there is actually detail to see, like wrinkles in a black suit.

I'm wondering since my htpc has plenty of power, if there are any filters I can use to help lessen that effect in dark scenes but keep the detail when it matters?
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BryanC

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 05:32:15 pm »

Have you enabled Videoclock?
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 01:59:07 am »

Yes I have.
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svinks

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 10:58:03 am »

Did you try ffdshow improvement?
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 01:50:37 pm »

No, how do I do that?

When I right click I only have MadVR to choose from.
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svinks

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 03:48:45 pm »


First off all you have to install ffdshow
Then you have to set the video mode to "Advanced, custom"
Then:
- start with ROHQ
- add, type "video post processor", filter "ffdshow raw video filter"
Then click on "properties"

And take time to configure, this guide may help http://www.homecinema-hd.com/ffdshow-video-profiles_en.html

Hope that's help  :)
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mojave

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 04:24:12 pm »

What is your source and output resolution? I'll assume you are 1080p. Most of the benefit with ffdshow was with resizing and madvr does a better job. However, you can still try some of the filters. If you have DVD's, you can convert to mkv using MakeMKV and then JRiver will use madvr for resizing DVD's to a higher resolution.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 01:31:48 am »

Thanks svinks, I'll give that a try.

I play 720p mostly, some 1080p to a 1080p plasma TV.

When I install ffdshow and configure it like that, will madvr still be used for scaling or will it revert to ffdshow?
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svinks

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 02:22:48 am »

Yes Madvr still be used for upscaling, until you don't use resize option in ffdshow.






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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 02:28:46 am »

Thanks for the quick reply. I think you meant until I do use the resize option in ffdshow, not don't ;).
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svinks

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 02:31:27 am »

Yes yes ;D

(I'm french so sorry for my poor english...)
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Jong

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 02:33:17 am »

As someone who was an avid ffdshow user 5-6 years ago, I wouldn't/don't use it for anything but esoteric decoding duties now. MadVR does a much better job of resizing and it 'just does it right' there is really no need for ffdshow's post-processing either.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 02:37:57 am »

Jong, did you read my first post?  ::).

It's not for upscaling, I'm trying to overcome an issue due to (I think) compression. I don't see this on larger files or original blurays.
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Jong

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 03:28:56 am »

Yeah IM, I did see that. I was just reenforcing that I would not personally use ffdshows resizing or video post-processing now. You are probably right the problems you are seeing are probably down to over compression of (broadcast?) 720p. The bitrates used are nowhere near bluray levels, but IMO attempt to mask them will mostly only make things worse e.g. loss of detail in other parts of the image. But personal preferences on this do legitimately vary.  :)
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 03:50:34 am »

Yeh you're probably right about making it worse but I still think its worth to check it out, see if I can find a trade off I can live with.

In the end I might just take brightness down 1 or 2 clicks as that masks most of it too but takes some detail away in dark scenes, enough to make me try something else. It also shifts the problem to higher level grays, though its a lot less obvious because those areas are smaller I guess.

The sources I'm talking about in particular are the purchased web download versions of episode series, like recently I watched season 2 of The Walking Dead. The HDTV broadcast versions are often smaller and better quality :(.
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glynor

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 09:27:54 am »

This reminds me a little of...



One of the graphic designers in my office is fond of saying:

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t."
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glynor

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 09:53:34 am »

It much more obvious now when a video has lower quality. Especially in dark scenes I often see the effect that looks like smudging or smearing. Imagine a guy running through a dark alley at night towards a lit street. You see the guy running and moving with the streetlights in the back, but the parts that dissapear into the darkness remain stationary.

This is a temporal compression artifact.

Most modern video compression (those for delivery, anyway) use temporal compression.  If you imagine each frame of a video as a separate photo, then compression on video works generally like this:

Uncompressed: Each frame is essentially like an uncompressed TIFF (in a funky color space). For a 1080p stream at 24p, this works out to roughly 142 MB/s (24 frames *1920*1080*3 channels = 149,299,200 bytes per second, not including sound or metadata).
DV and AIC: Each frame is essentially like a JPEG of the same TIFF from the uncompressed video stream.  Many non-temporal codecs (like DV) also use color space compression to achieve higher compression ratios (the color data is stored at a lower resolution than the black-and-white luma channel).
MPEG-2 (H.262) and MPEG-4 (ASP and H.264): Frames are still compressed like described above, but are also no longer encoded independently.  Instead, the codec stores keyframes at regular intervals then only the differences between these key frames.  The idea is that in most footage, only small portions of the frame change from one frame to the next.  The sky and background stay relatively static as the guy in the foreground walks across the screen.  More advanced codecs (like H.264) do a better job at predicting these changes than older ones like ASP (XviD) and MPEG-2 (DVD).  This kind of compression is called "temporal" compression, and it is very common with all modern delivery codecs.

Unfortunately, to achieve high compression ratios, the temporal codecs have to use some fuzzy math about color and frame changes.  This is, much like MP3 compression and JPEG compression, designed to be invisible to the human perceptive system.  However, there are limits to these capabilities.  As you increase the amount of compression, you become more likely to be able to see artifacts from the compression, particularly in the shadows (which the codecs are tuned to "destroy" first).  If the video is compressed with a fixed bitrate (rather than a VBR scheme) you will also see issues in frames where "lots of action" is happening, or where there is a "busy" background with lots of changes (a guy walking across a busy street in NYC, for example).  Slow fades are one of the most difficult things to compress temporally, because each pixel of each frame is different from the one before it.

There are some things you can do to smooth out the video (deblocking and whatnot) but you are essentially just further manipulating the data that is there.  The only way to "hide" these details in the shadows is to blur them, so that the lines don't appear so sharp to your eye.  You can't reconstruct data that isn't there.  You can try to make smart guesses about what might have been there (and some algorithms do), but it will still be blurring and guessing.

The reason I mention all of this is to make this point:

If you apply these kinds of corrections to your "bad" videos, and it looks better to your eye, then great.  However, it is a blur effect.  You don't want to apply it to videos that are already in good shape, as you will be reducing their quality.  Hence:

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t."
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 10:04:37 am »

Thanks Glynor for the explanation.

What I was hoping for is some kind of filter that would apply its effect on areas that are having this effect. In my case, that would be the final 2 or 3 black levels. If a filter could apply some logic to those areas, "detect" a stationary black blurr while the rest of the image is changing, then apply some blurr to that part to soften it up ... Sometimes I wish I never gave up programming.

I find it hard to believe I am the only one seeing this and bothered by it, so I figured there had to be something to "fix" it.
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glynor

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 10:10:28 am »

There are algorithms that do that (apply the blur smartly, and also apply sharpening smartly) by analyzing frames as they fly through and trying to predict where the "problems" lie).

However, many of these involve heavy math, which means they can be resource intensive.  And, like I said, they are technically "further damaging" the data that is there, they are just doing it in a way that happens to be pleasing to the eye on a video that is otherwise ugly.

Most good filters need to do multiple passes on the entire video stream, which means they cannot be a real-time effect.  This makes sense if you think about it.  If the problem was caused by compression that happens over time, it is best to analyze it over time (and look at the frames yet-to-come compared to those that already passed by) to try to repair the damage.

But there are things you can do even in real-time.  I've never investigated it very thoroughly, as I prefer to just have a better quality source, but I've seen guides.  The most important thing to consider, though, is that the algorithm won't be able to tell the difference between a "good" video source and a "bad" one.  You'll need to turn it on and off depending on the video in question yourself, or else the algorithm will try to "fix" things in the good videos that aren't broken.
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Jong

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 10:31:11 am »

Frankly, the decoders for this stuff are pretty mature now, so they will already be doing all they can to display the best possible image with the available data. If you could see the raw data you'd probably be amazed how good it looks. Fact is all the general public seems to care about is the HD label. They could compress a 1 hour video to the size of a single .jpg and provided it was still 720p Joe Public would be happy! Well, not literally, but..... Bandwidth costs money. Broadcast and streamed HD is overcompressed to save cost and because they can get away with it.

Of course, personal preference still can vary, so maybe you can find something that works better for you, but it isn't that the decoders just don't care.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Improving video quality with ROHQ
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 01:44:27 pm »

Right, thanks guys!

I guess I just need to let this go as the more I learn about it the more it looks like its more trouble than its worth.
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