Topic: Fast BD Drive for Ripping? (Read 30219 times)

jmone · « **on:** August 03, 2012, 02:54:46 am »

Any recomendations on good internal SATA BD Drives especially for high speed ripping?
Thanks
Nathan

PS - happy to flash firmware if riplock disabling is still needed to get quicker rips.

Daydream · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2012, 03:04:52 pm »

Whatever you choose, get 3 of them. That will make ripping really fast!

hulkss · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2012, 04:52:29 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 03, 2012, 02:54:46 am

Any recomendations on good internal SATA BD Drives especially for high speed ripping?
Thanks
Nathan

PS - happy to flash firmware if riplock disabling is still needed to get quicker rips.

I'm using WH14NS40
http://www.lgsolutions.com/__documents/file/LC_Opt_Drive_041233_PR(1).pdf

glynor · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:32:24 pm »

I have two ASUS BluRay ROM drives and a LG RW drive. I have no idea if they're fast or not though.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:43:41 pm »

Typically, I use Pioneer BD-R. Mine is older model, but their latest version is a 12X. Pioneer is reliable drive though.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100008607%2050001167&IsNodeId=1&name=Pioneer

The other Pioneer has BDXL support, but if the discs would drop in price. Then it might be worth the extra $10.

If you want something where you can load a 100 at a time, then I recommed Nimbie http://www.acronova.com/product.php?id=9&n=overview
You might see if a company rents them out, but that be better though.

jmone · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:58:19 pm »

Ok - ordered a Pio BDR-207EBK and will see how it goes (as it should be "fun" to see what 100GB disks are like) + it should be faster than my aging GGW-H20L (and who needs HD-DVD compatibility anymore!). This will then give me 4xBD drives I can use...

Sparks67 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2012, 09:08:14 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 03, 2012, 10:58:19 pm

Ok - ordered a Pio BDR-207EBK and will see how it goes (as it should be "fun" to see what 100GB disks are like) + it should be faster than my aging GGW-H20L (and who needs HD-DVD compatibility anymore!). This will then give me 4xBD drives I can use...

Supposedly, I heard that those BDXL format will come down in price. Just makes a good backup solution, but right now I use BD-R for backup. Ritek is supposed to drop the price soon. Then you have to go to holographc disk in the future. http://hvault.com/solutions-for-any-size-application/ This technology primary purpose for now is Cloud technology, but it is on the roadmap for UHDTV (4k and 8K). hVault is basically, owned by the same people that owned InPhase Technologies that went bankrupt in 2010.

You can rip HD-DVD movies with AnyDVD HD with that other drive. There is a few movies that never made it Bluray. Sneakers is one of those movies. I did it with an XBox HD-DVD player back in 2008. The image quality on a few titles is better with HD-DVD.

hulkss · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2012, 12:48:38 am »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 04, 2012, 09:08:14 pm

right now I use BD-R for backup

I'm sticking with hard drives for back-up. Blu-ray disks have unproven shelf life. Maybe there will be affordable high density M-Discs some day.
http://millenniata.com/m-disc/

jmone · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2012, 01:28:11 am »

I've already converted all my HD-DVD to BD-R 25GB but as hulkss points out who knows how long they willl last so they are also getting ripped to the HDDs

Sparks67 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2012, 01:50:52 am »

Quote from: hulkss on August 05, 2012, 12:48:38 am

I'm sticking with hard drives for back-up. Blu-ray disks have unproven shelf life. Maybe there will be affordable high density M-Discs some day.
http://millenniata.com/m-disc/

I have CD's now that are 12 years old. DVD's 15 years old, and I have been doing BD-r's for about 3 years. I had hard drives fail within 6 months.
Hard drives are magnetic media, and since it is gone to multiple platter design. Typically, they are failing more often now. Holographic disc will be the next gen media according to NHK's open house in 2012. You also need a new format for UHDTV. http://blogs.hds.com/technomusings/2011/08/a-true-holographic-system-would-be-disruptive.html

Of course, you have to spend more money for the new audio format with UHDTV.

P.S. I just backup the data. I have been doing this same method since 1995, and never failed yet. My photography friends also use the same method. Shelf life for Verbatim BD-R is about 12 years. I had hard drives to fail before, so putting it on hard drive is not a backup method.

hulkss · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2012, 10:43:45 am »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 05, 2012, 01:50:52 am

putting it on hard drive is not a backup method.

Multiple copies on multiple drives is required with hard drives for data backup.

Recently I ordered a bunch of used CD's to get recordings that were not "remastered". Many of them are full of pinholes in the data storage layer. If you hold them up to a light it is easy to see the holes. Fortunately the error correction for music playback interpolates through the gaps and is mostly inaudible. Optical data discs are not so robust.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2012, 12:48:00 pm »

Quote from: hulkss on August 05, 2012, 10:43:45 am

Multiple copies on multiple drives is required with hard drives for data backup.

Recently I ordered a bunch of used CD's to get recordings that were not "remastered". Many of them are full of pinholes in the data storage layer. If you hold them up to a light it is easy to see the holes. Fortunately the error correction for music playback interpolates through the gaps and is mostly inaudible. Optical data discs are not so robust.

I recently ripped my entire collection of around 1300 CD's to WAV and 400 DTS CD's and all still play fine. I think that I had one failure out 1700 Discs. I can deal with 0.0005 failure, but entire drive? No way! Majority of my collection was 1999 to 2003, but I do have some CD's that are from 1987 to 1990. Each CD is stored in a jewel box, in my basement that runs around 55 degrees year around. I never said CD was permanent storage. You can have manufacturing problems on some early CD's. I have vinyl from the 60's and 70's that still play, but that was pressed. My 8-tracks, cassettes, VHS tapes were replaced long ago.

Sounds like you ordered from online used CD's, but it might have been better to see them first. The problem is that most people don't know how to pick up CD's or store them properly. Here is link that describes CD Rot. http://cdrot.com/info/why-are-cd-rotting-how-it-happens/ My background with computers dates back to 1982, but I have worked in Lasers and coatings in the past as an Engineer.

What I find though that most people use cheap brands of media, and cheap drives. Then complain that optical media fails. I used Plextor CD-R drives and EAC. Brands of media for CD-R's was at first Kodak, and Ritek. My Plextor drives are like a tank compared to the new drives now with plastic parts. Of course, I have tried the hard drive method, and lost several drives. I had one drive to fail on RAID and lost 12TB, but I used this Optical method in the past for work. This has been the most reliable, because you might lose one CD. While your method an entire collection.

Here is a good source in talking about Optical. http://www.dataarchivecorp.com/why-Optical.htm

hulkss · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2012, 06:46:39 pm »

I may consider M Disc when they reach blu-ray density.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2012, 10:06:00 pm »

glynor · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:32:22 am »

Quote from: hulkss on August 05, 2012, 10:43:45 am

Optical data discs are not so robust.

Agreed. We used to do a lot of archival onto CD-R and DVD-R here at the office. Unfortunately, they are extremely variable in quality (even with "known good" brands - we used exclusively Verbatim at first and then Taiyo Yuden later), and very sensitive to storage conditions.

We researched it, and kept them in what seemed to be good, controlled, conditions (in a climate-controlled office, in "archival" CD-sleeves, in the dark, on a shelf). Within 5 years, 2-3% of them were unreadable, and all had a substantial uptick in errors.

That's in controlled conditions with high quality media (and verified writes before putting them on the shelf). Pressed discs are, of course, much more reliable. But for backup, pressed discs aren't a realistic option.

Ink-based optical discs are just way too fragile, and way too much work. Hard drives stored on the shelf are WAY more robust and reliable. The backup process is way easier, too, and now the cost per GB makes sense too.

I have zero interest in optical media anymore. It just doesn't make sense when magnetic media is so fast, reliable, and has massive (and ever increasing) available capacities.

Daydream · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2012, 01:58:08 pm »

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:32:22 am

Hard drives stored on the shelf are WAY more robust and reliable. The backup process is way easier, too, and now the cost per GB makes sense too.

Is this your POV or the enterprise's you work for? If the latter I'm curious how many business see it like that because in my experience very few.

I agree with you ref. HDD, but still have to suffer through backup tapes and the likes.

glynor · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2012, 02:05:53 pm »

Quote from: Daydream on August 06, 2012, 01:58:08 pm

Is this your POV or the enterprise's you work for? If the latter I'm curious how many business see it like that because in my experience very few.

At the office, we archive to our SAN now, mostly (which isn't really a "SAN" but acts effectively like one). But before we had a SAN that was useful in this kind of way, each individual department was forced to come up with solutions ourselves. My department even went so far as to buy a fancy (and absurdly expensive) automated tape backup system, which broke down after a couple years (months after the warranty support period ended, of course).

Some things I still archive off onto hard drives on my shelf. But only stuff that (1) can be recreated from the sources if necessary, or (2) wouldn't be the end of the world to lose if the building burns down.

At one point, my department was the biggest "problem" at my company for large amounts of data storage, so we were often on-our-own in the wilderness to find data storage and archival solutions (I'd call and say I needed a 4TB share and they'd flip out). Now, however, we're small-fry. My good friend in our microscopy department has a single machine that generates 1TB of data per day, and they're about to bring a new system online in another area that will generate around 4TB of data per day. So, IT was forced to solve the storage problems, and has mostly done a good job. They no longer freak out when I ask for big shares. Of course, the shares are all way too slow to work on natively, so I still end up with local storage concerns.

At home, hard-drives-on-the-shelf is my method because I don't have a SAN that supports that amount of data.

* I don't work for IT and I don't interact with that part of IT enough to know a lot of details about the SAN. I know it is one of those big, industrial multi-tiered ones that shifts inactive data off to slower and slower disks, and handles off-site backup automatically and all of that. Our top-priority assets are duplicated to remote offices in a variety of locations.

jmone · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2012, 05:03:23 pm »

well the Pio BDR-207EBK just arrived and I was disapointed to find no blank BDXL disc to play with in the packaging.... Then I checked out the prices of blank media

a single 100GB RE is almost as much as the drive!

glynor · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2012, 05:15:54 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 06, 2012, 05:03:23 pm

Then I checked out the prices of blank media a single 100GB RE is almost as much as the drive!

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:32:22 am

I have zero interest in optical media anymore. It just doesn't make sense when magnetic media is so fast, reliable, and has massive (and ever increasing) available capacities.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2012, 06:18:49 pm »

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:32:22 am

That's in controlled conditions with high quality media (and verified writes before putting them on the shelf). Pressed discs are, of course, much more reliable. But for backup, pressed discs aren't a realistic option.

Ink-based optical discs are just way too fragile, and way too much work. Hard drives stored on the shelf are WAY more robust and reliable. The backup process is way easier, too, and now the cost per GB makes sense too.

I have zero interest in optical media anymore. It just doesn't make sense when magnetic media is so fast, reliable, and has massive (and ever increasing) available capacities.

Most large organizations use thermal based discs. (3000 people). Ink-based optical disc is typically is a small organization. The problem with hard drives is that it is based on magnetic media. Even in a controlled environment, the major factor in hard drive failure is temperature and humidity. Most companies and homes don't have huge diesel generators that can switch on with 10 seconds after losing power. The generators are designed to keep the cooling systems for data centers running 24/7. I have been out power several times, but doing a whole house generator is rather expensive. One time was 10 days with out power, but the advantage for me is the basement.

Another factor that I experienced at home was a lightning strike on a tree outside my house in 2010. Lightning found a entrance into the house and destroyed in less than a minute over $10,000 in electronics. Can you protect against lightning strike? No! One computer had 10 hard drives, all the data was loss. Another computer only had 2 drives, but it wasn't near that circuit. Then I spent the next 3 months trying to replace my equipment, because the insurance company wanted to buy gray market audio equipment. They wanted to pay me $399 for a computer that was around $4,000. I thought ahead though and had my data backed on optical media. I keep my optical method, and you can keeping doing yours.

The next generation in storage is based on Holographic disc. If you recall InPhase Technologies went bankrupt in 2010. Well, they are back with a new name. It is hVault. http://hvault.com/solutions-for-any-size-application/ Holographic storage is part of NHK development with UHDTV, but there is huge demand for a permanent solution. There is several companies that are approaching Petabyte or Exabyte storage, so a backup solution is going to be optical. hVault is just one of the companies, but a few others are Hitach Data Systems, and GE. According to the NHK Open House in 2012, Holographic disc in 3 years is going to replace Bluray for next gen optical.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2012, 06:32:55 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 06, 2012, 05:03:23 pm

well the Pio BDR-207EBK just arrived and I was disapointed to find no blank BDXL disc to play with in the packaging.... Then I checked out the prices of blank media a single 100GB RE is almost as much as the drive!

Supposedly that media is going to go down in price, according to avsforum. Ritek is going to drop the price. That is why I am doing doing BD-R for a $1 a disc. The pioneer is a good drive though, so you have to wait and see on if the media drops.

Anyway, I am looking for a more reliable solution. So, I am looking at Holographic storage. Here is a link on pricing per gigabyte on holographic storage.
Well, I want 1TB disc solution or higher.

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-48/issue-02/world-news/holographic-data-storage-uses-volumetric-crystal-media.html
There is chart in the article.

jmone · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2012, 06:39:34 pm »

Well installed the 207EBK (and updated the BIOS to latest 1.21) but getting very ordinary read speed on it (seems to cap at 8.5MB/s) which is under half the max of my patched old LG GGW-H20L. Time to find either a patcher or patched firmware I guess....

Sparks67 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2012, 06:50:42 pm »

Anydvd? There is some other features that might make it faster. One is called Aggressive scan
And the other is speed control. Fast & Noisy according to the forum.
I never changed the settings.

jmone · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:05:05 pm »

Yup AnyDVD HD and I too have not changed any setting, the LG and the PIO are both in the same PC same AnyDVD instance, yet the Pio is much slower.... got to be something else...

Matt · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:18:57 pm »

This thread lists the speeds of a couple BD drives I've used:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69556.0

If anyone finds something considerably faster, please share.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:35:31 pm »

I never done 2 Bluray rips at once. My pioneer is an older model, BD-RWBDR-203 and it is reliable.
I try a rip for you, and give you the time on rip. I am getting around 16.70 Mb/sec on Bluray pressed media. I tried a BD-r and it is around 9 Mb/sec.
I say this bluray recorder was bought in 2009. Same settings as before.

I have the Nimbie NB-11, but it is CD/DVD only. Uses a Pioneer too. Took around 10 days to do my CD collection, but that is the best for those.
Just load up a 100 a time, and let it go...

jmone · « **Reply #26 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:41:31 pm »

You have put me on the right track (I think) - While the settings in AnyDVD HD made no difference I did find this about the drives:

Quote

The Auto Quiet mode intelligently adjusts the disc rotation speed to reduce noise, a feature useful while watching movies or listening to music. Drives with Auto Quiet mode, monitor how they are being used and will adjust their speed automatically – high speed for data transfer, and low speed for music or movie playback. The Pioneer BD Drive utility offers four different modes:

Standard Mode - Shuts down the quiet drive feature. The drive will operate similar to the standard setting for maximum performance for playback.
Performance Mode - Upon disc insertion, High speed setting is on. When audio or video playback occurs, the drive will switch to Low speed setting.
Quiet Mode - Factory default setting, which utilizes the Quiet Drive feature to its fullest potential. Upon disc insertion, Low speed setting is on. When deemed necessary, the drive switches to High speed setting.
Persistent Quiet Mode - Upon disc insertion, the drive will remain in its Low speed setting and will not engage High speed setting regardless of host requests.

I'm now trying to find a download for the Pioneer BD Drive utility as it was not in the box....

glynor · « **Reply #27 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:55:16 pm »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 06, 2012, 06:18:49 pm

Most companies and homes don't have huge diesel generators that can switch on with 10 seconds after losing power. The generators are designed to keep the cooling systems for data centers running 24/7.

Actually, we have a pretty sweet biomass boiler.

As I mentioned, I was only discussing my department's use of optical discs for archival (offline) storage (so no "automated" backup situation would apply, because the files aren't accessible anywhere anymore), and we have been very satisfied with keeping hard drives. They may be sensitive to humidity and heat, but generally this is only a concern when: (A) they're spinning, and/or (B) you have very harsh conditions that would also kill any optical discs. In practice, they've been extremely reliable when you use good quality drives (not re-using old leftovers) and you don't spin them after the initial burn-in (to test for the bathtub failure curve).

In any case, when referring to Nathan's home-based use for backup, I think hard drives are a much better and more reliable option.

PS. One other reason the drives have been handy is for ease-of-use and ease-of-updating reasons. Even though the data is stored on the SAN now, I still keep archive disks on the shelf for everything I take offline (off of my local RAID). This keeps things simple for a number of reasons, but mostly, because they ARE read/write. I can update the archive when needed occasionally, and accessing it for use is simple (where an optical disc's contents would need to be copied to a local disk before use, and then any changes saved out to new discs).

jmone · « **Reply #28 on:** August 06, 2012, 07:59:49 pm »

found the Pioneer BD Drive Utility in a folder on the included Cyberlink Disk (go figure) and have now turned off "quiet mode". Performace looks better and started at 14MB/s and is still increasing as the disc progresses (oh and the drive is it is still quiet!)

glynor · « **Reply #29 on:** August 06, 2012, 08:05:14 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 06, 2012, 07:59:49 pm

in a folder on the included Cyberlink Disk

No wonder you didn't find it.

Putting in a disc included in the box with a piece of hardware..? Shudder.

jmone · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2012, 08:14:58 pm »

I know - what were they thinking.

Don't post it on any of their web sites (worldwide) for any model. Don't advertise it on the Doco in the box. Hide it in a Disc for Cyberlink Playback SW (also not in the install menu).

Sparks67 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 06, 2012, 10:54:33 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 06, 2012, 07:59:49 pm

found the Pioneer BD Drive Utility in a folder on the included Cyberlink Disk (go figure) and have now turned off "quiet mode". Performace looks better and started at 14MB/s and is still increasing as the disc progresses (oh and the drive is it is still quiet!)

Typically, I start around 9MB/sec with the default settings on anydvd. I changed the anydvd settings, but didn't notice any change. You need to reboot to make the changes. Pioneer has been the best bluray drive that I owned.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:08:46 am »

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:55:16 pm

Actually, we have a pretty sweet biomass boiler.

Yes, looks quite tiny as compared to our generators. Typically sized for large military base.

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:55:16 pm

As I mentioned, I was only discussing my department's use of optical discs for archival (offline) storage (so no "automated" backup situation would apply, because the files aren't accessible anywhere anymore), and we have been very satisfied with keeping hard drives. They may be sensitive to humidity and heat, but generally this is only a concern when: (A) they're spinning, and/or (B) you have very harsh conditions that would also kill any optical discs. In practice, they've been extremely reliable when you use good quality drives (not re-using old leftovers) and you don't spin them after the initial burn-in (to test for the bathtub failure curve).

There is several solutions out there, but most companies don't want spend the money. http://group47.com/Group_47-DOTS_Technology_Overview-WEBSITE.pdf Essentially, this company is selling a product, but the briefing does address a few other areas that I didn't cover. I would say that the briefing might be 1 year old. I noticed at the end about Holographic storage, well, several companies are developing this technology. Hitachi data systems is huge player in the development. http://blogs.hds.com/technomusings/2011/08/a-true-holographic-system-would-be-disruptive.html
"Twelve terabytes of capacity at 6 Gbps transfer rates on a single sided 12 cm disk are within the realm of eager discussion when looking to develop commercially available products and design solutions of the future." I love to see a hard drive do that speed. Not sure on the speed of Heat-assisted magnetic recording (HAMR) (next Gen Hard Drive)

Hitachi also developed those 3 Super Hi vision cameras that is being used in the Olympics for 8k video.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/researchanddevelopment/2012/08/the-olympics-in-super-hi-visio.shtml

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:55:16 pm

In any case, when referring to Nathan's home-based use for backup, I think hard drives are a much better and more reliable option.

Anyway, if you look farther up on the post. I was the first one to mention that I backup via BD-R. Holographic comes out later, then I will move to that. I am flexible.

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:55:16 pm

PS. One other reason the drives have been handy is for ease-of-use and ease-of-updating reasons. Even though the data is stored on the SAN now, I still keep archive disks on the shelf for everything I take offline (off of my local RAID). This keeps things simple for a number of reasons, but mostly, because they ARE read/write. I can update the archive when needed occasionally, and accessing it for use is simple (where an optical disc's contents would need to be copied to a local disk before use, and then any changes saved out to new discs).

I have a 25TB RAID 6 Server, which handles my CD and DVD collections. I also have 3 Sony BDP-CX7000ES Changers that handles my 1000 Disc Bluray collection. Changers are still cheaper than hard disc, and the audio/video is better via the changer. Right now it is controlled by Control4, but perhaps my request with J river will be included with Media Center 18. Actually, I do prefer it on the Mac OS X in the future.

jmone · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:29:56 am »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 07, 2012, 12:08:46 am

Changers are still cheaper than hard disc, and the audio/video is better via the changer.

$:-\$ and why would that be?

glynor · « **Reply #34 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 07, 2012, 12:08:46 am

Anyway, if you look farther up on the post. I was the first one to mention that I backup via BD-R. Holographic comes out later, then I will move to that. I am flexible.

Sigh.

I know. We're going round and round in circles. I meant: For your average home user with access only to an average BD-RW drive, it doesn't make sense to back-up to optical media anymore. You may disagree, that's fine. I've explained my reasons. Pointing out that high-end, multi-million dollar auto-loading/recording systems can handle backing up to optical media in an automated and reliable fashion, doesn't help end-users.

For end users, backing a large, ever-growing collection up to optical discs is a non-starter. Even if you think you'll do it, you won't, and your backup will be badly out of date.

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 07, 2012, 12:08:46 am

Changers are still cheaper than hard disc, and the audio/video is better via the changer.

No they aren't and no it isn't.

Magnetic:
Thermaltake BlacX USB3 Docking Station, one-time-cost: $48
2 x 3TB WD Green Drive: $169.99 shipped each.

That's $339.98 per 3TB of backup capacity, assuming you store one offsite in rotation, after startup costs. If you have 24TB to back up, this comes to:
$2767.84 total.

They make duo-versions of those drive docks for marginally more (and ones with eSATA and whatnot instead of USB3), so buy four of them and you'll have plenty of "slots". If you want, instead, you could usea an Addonics box (or something similar) with hot-swap drive bays for a few hundred bucks. It'd take a huge amount of docks and/or a very fancy case to add up to $1095. You only need 8 to do 24TB in one fell swoop, and that's assuming the online array is completely fully. For example, four of the Thermaltake USB3 Duo-Drive docks comes to $260. That total would be $2979.84.

Turn the docks/case off when not-in use for a backup (once a week or something). You could even, maybe, automate this with a timer.

Nimbie:
Nimbie USB Plus: $1095
Taiyo Yuden BD-R ~$1.44/25GB

That's 40 discs per TB, times 3TB, times 2 for the offsite copy, which is $345.60 per TB. The total cost for 24TB would be:
$3859.80

Even if you could find marginally lower prices for the BD-R discs than I'm quoting (that was for packs of 300, which is more than he'd need), you're still looking at a much higher overall cost because of the hardware cost. Plus, then you're stuck managing 120 discs (more than the Nimbie can handle) to backup 24TB just once. To deal with the fact that you're really going to need a Nimbie Chorus system ($2k+). And how do you do offsite backup? Buy another Nimbie system and switch them? Or do you painstakingly catalog and transfer them one at a time?

And then, how do you store them to make sure that data stays "good"? How do you check them? How do you update them? (My prices were for BD-Rs, so you're throwing them out and buying new each time you change a file.)

If you are in a massive data center that is going to buy discs by the tens of thousands and use a massive, multi-million dollar auto-loader and archival system? Sure. It is cheaper per TB to store backups that way. Slower and less convenient, but cheaper.

But it isn't cheaper for most normal humans, and it isn't cheaper for 24TB.

And it certainly isn't higher quality. That's just funny.

glynor · « **Reply #35 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:47:02 am »

PS. Plus, that doesn't take into account that next year the hard drives will be even cheaper and available in even larger capacities, so you can easily grow your backup capacity over time.

jmone · « **Reply #36 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:49:59 am »

...still waiting for my other 4 x 4TB hdd to arrive, and annoyingly 2 of them arrived in Sydney on the weekend but UPS will not ship them to my house till Thurs as that was the date booked

- I asked to do a pickup and they said I could only do that once they failed to deliver the first time..... of of course I'm away Thurs/Fri.....

...anyway as I've run out of space on my Drive Pool I'm now filling up old 1TB hdds in an e-stata docking station to import later, but found they max out at around 50MB/s which I can hit from the 3 x drives ripping on the one PC

glynor · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2012, 02:00:58 am »

A 3TB Caviar Green should be able to hit around 92MB/s average across the surface in sequential writes. Lots of little writes might slow it down in-practice from that, but 50MB/s seems excessive.

Something is funky there. The bus, even if it is SATA1, should be able to handle 150MB/s easy. Are you using a really long eSATA cable or something? A poorly shielded one? That could increase error rates and make things slower.

It is probably just the crappy controller in the drive dock, though. A newer high-quality USB3 one might do better. I might be able to test for you if you'd like...

PS. Or maybe it is just the old 1TB drives you're using. If they were old and much slower then, maybe... Still probably the dock though.

jmone · « **Reply #38 on:** August 07, 2012, 02:07:24 am »

I too thought it was the doc but a bit of googling suggested it is this model of hdd http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/799/

Anyway, no biggie just getting some more ripping done till the new HDDs arrive (which are much much quicker!)

Sparks67 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:03:07 am »

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

Sigh.

I know. We're going round and round in circles. I meant: For your average home user with access only to an average BD-RW drive, it doesn't make sense to back-up to optical media anymore. You may disagree, that's fine. I've explained my reasons. Pointing out that high-end, multi-million dollar auto-loading/recording systems can handle backing up to optical media in an automated and reliable fashion, doesn't help end-users.

The next gen system is not bluray, it is holographic disc. GE had a video on this in 2009, but stated that holographic disc would be the size of your current recorder. Although, no company has bought the GE design. Hitachi, InPhase Technology (hVault) developed a different method that has better results in terms of speed and storage. There is 2 different size file formats. The first one is 1TB and the other will be at least 10 to 12TB. NHK states about 3 years in the NHK open house in May of 2012. http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2012/html/tenji/index_e.html Here is a list of technologies that is being developed for UHDTV. This was the Exhibition. There is a pdf that has highlights of that open house. Anyway, there was a few people that went to this event in Japan. I give you a link to the blog http://lcjapan.com/

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

No they aren't and no it isn't.

(Yes, it is cheaper!!!)

My Sony 7000ES Changer cost was last year. $700 US each. New. (Sony Changer is equivalent to 20TB based on 400 Discs). The lowest price was on Black Friday was $550. Sony Outlet stores had them for $199. Currrently, they are around $2,600 on ebay. Sony quit producing them, because of the Sunset law.

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

2 x 3TB WD Green Drive:

(Junk Drives...Don't buy them. I had 2 to fail. Black is better) Green lasted about a year. I never own them again. Hitachi has been reliable so far on my
Rackmount Server with Areca 1280ML RAID 6 Raid. Hitachi price was 119.99 from Newegg at 2TB and I bought 16 drives. This drive is a SATA II, but I get very reliable speeds on copy. Server eats the power though, it is 3U power supply. Takes around $60 a month to run Sever 24/7. Old motherboard wouldn't do sleep, so we have to see on the Asus.

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

2 x 3TB WD Green Drive:

Nimbie:
Nimbie USB Plus: $1095
Taiyo Yuden BD-R ~$1.44/25GB[/quote]
I bought the Nimbie NB11 (DVD/CD), but it is USB. Currently though Bluray drive is my pioneer. I told you it was reliable. Cost for the Nimbie was around $500.
Nimbie uses a Pioneer drive, so it could be replaced with Bluray.
Verbatim BD-R ~ $1.20/25GB (25 discs) Amazon

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

And then, how do you store them to make sure that data stays "good"? How do you check them? How do you update them? (My prices were for BD-Rs, so you're throwing them out and buying new each time you change a file.)[/quote]

Basement is storage it is 55 degrees year around. No water ever in the basement, but former owners did some commercial work to it. I own the pressed versions, so why would I throw them out. Changers have BD-R's, so I just reburn when needed.

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 01:41:41 am

And it certainly isn't higher quality. That's just funny.

I have both, so I can compare. In 2008, on my first htpc, I was doing Bluray and HD DVD in 2008 on hard drives. The older single platter drives are more reliable. I still own them, but these new cheap multiple platter designs has lot of failures.

You can tell via the audio quality, but perhaps you are going through HDMI on the motherboard. Video cards don't have the quality as an high end player. I have a pioneer Elite bluray player and it is still the best quality.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ___________________
Currently, you don't have the option for a changer. So, your only option is servers/NAS. For a home HTPC, you don't want noise if the HTPC is in the cabinet. I think this storage will be the best option, because allows the HTPC user to expand in the future. http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm

Sparks67 · « **Reply #40 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:12:35 am »

Quote from: jmone on August 07, 2012, 02:07:24 am

I too thought it was the doc but a bit of googling suggested it is this model of hdd http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/799/

Anyway, no biggie just getting some more ripping done till the new HDDs arrive (which are much much quicker!)

Hitachi is great drive. Stay away from the Samsung F4. I never own another one. Lasted for about 6 months.
The platter started to vibrate, and would shake the entire case.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:16:41 am »

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 02:00:58 am

Something is funky there. The bus, even if it is SATA1, should be able to handle 150MB/s easy. Are you using a really long eSATA cable or something? A poorly shielded one? That could increase error rates and make things slower.

It is probably just the crappy controller in the drive dock, though. A newer high-quality USB3 one might do better. I might be able to test for you if you'd like...

PS. Or maybe it is just the old 1TB drives you're using. If they were old and much slower then, maybe... Still probably the dock though.

The maximum out of SATA II drives is around 110MB/sec. Not sure on SATA III. SAS, I heard hits around 200 MB/s

glynor · « **Reply #42 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:42:18 pm »

Quote from: Sparks67 on August 07, 2012, 06:03:07 am

(Yes, it is cheaper!!!)

My Sony 7000ES Changer cost was last year. $700 US each. New. (Sony Changer is equivalent to 20TB based on 400 Discs). The lowest price was on Black Friday was $550. Sony Outlet stores had them for $199. Currrently, they are around $2,600 on ebay. Sony quit producing them, because of the Sunset law.
(Junk Drives...Don't buy them. I had 2 to fail. Black is better) Green lasted about a year. I never own them again. Hitachi has been reliable so far on my
Rackmount Server with Areca 1280ML RAID 6 Raid. Hitachi price was 119.99 from Newegg at 2TB and I bought 16 drives. This drive is a SATA II, but I get very reliable speeds on copy.

You're comparing turkeys to peanut butter. Your argument is invalid.

And that comparison between quality is hysterical. I'm done explaining, because it obviously isn't getting through. Enjoy your changer.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #43 on:** August 07, 2012, 07:39:27 pm »

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 12:42:18 pm

You're comparing turkeys to peanut butter. Your argument is invalid.

And that comparison between quality is hysterical. I'm done explaining, because it obviously isn't getting through. Enjoy your changer.

Actually, you argument is invalid in terms of cost alone. You really need to review of the Sony 7000ES changer.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/sony-bdp-cx7000es-blu-ray-disc-changer
A rather cool feature in the Sony.. Super Bit Mapping (SBM). This feature processes a 14-bit video signal from the original 8-bit on discs. SBM eliminated banding effects as colors shifted from light to dark. I really noticed the improvement any time the moon or sun appeared onscreen: In such scenes, rough gradations are normally visible radiating away from the brightest part of the image. But with SBM engaged, the same transitions looked smoother and more natural. Although, the server allows me to play blurays from other countries, so I have the best of both worlds

P.S. My eventual plans are for UHDTV, but since there is no storage format yet. RED hinted that it will be download via the cloud from their REDRay player.

MrC · « **Reply #44 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:06:28 pm »

Quote from: glynor on August 07, 2012, 12:42:18 pm

You're comparing turkeys to peanut butter.

Can one compare guajolote to cacahuate?

jmone · « **Reply #45 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:18:27 pm »

Got two of the new 4TB hdd, and can say the speed from SSD --> 7K4000 (over Sata 2) is 120+MBs. From WD10EADS --> 7k4000 is running a bit under 70MB/s

Did not have fun today as one of the new drives could be partitioned but was failing formatting. Turns out it was a lose Sata Cable but in all the add/remove/format partitons, add remove to drive pool etc, try other tools at some point I blew away the rips on a holding 2TB drive I'll try some recovery tools but I guess I'll just re-rip them to be sure

The things you do when you rush...

Sparks67 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:20:10 pm »

rjm · « **Reply #47 on:** August 25, 2012, 07:12:01 pm »

Quote from: glynor on August 06, 2012, 07:32:22 am

Agreed. We used to do a lot of archival onto CD-R and DVD-R here at the office. Unfortunately, they are extremely variable in quality (even with "known good" brands - we used exclusively Verbatim at first and then Taiyo Yuden later), and very sensitive to storage conditions.

We researched it, and kept them in what seemed to be good, controlled, conditions (in a climate-controlled office, in "archival" CD-sleeves, in the dark, on a shelf). Within 5 years, 2-3% of them were unreadable, and all had a substantial uptick in errors.

That's in controlled conditions with high quality media (and verified writes before putting them on the shelf). Pressed discs are, of course, much more reliable. But for backup, pressed discs aren't a realistic option.

Ink-based optical discs are just way too fragile, and way too much work. Hard drives stored on the shelf are WAY more robust and reliable. The backup process is way easier, too, and now the cost per GB makes sense too.

I have zero interest in optical media anymore. It just doesn't make sense when magnetic media is so fast, reliable, and has massive (and ever increasing) available capacities.

Curious if in your office you do read back verify after burning every disc? I do 100% read back verify after burning and I see an error rate around 1-3% that is not caught during the burn process. I wonder if the errors you see are from burning and not from storage rot? I've never seen a optical disc fail in storage and I've burned many thousand. I also have not tested all of them so this is all speculation.

Just bought an M-DISC compatible drive and some media for my new desktop system. Didn't have to pay a premium for the drive so thought I'd diversify my backup risks a little more.

jmone · « **Reply #48 on:** August 25, 2012, 07:47:40 pm »

FYI - When I converted all my HD-DVD to BD's I did a verify and never had a failure. When ripping all of these (now twice) to HDD I had only one problematic BD that keep throwing up read errors but it was (just) ok on the drive that burnt it. So far that is under 1% failure rate of the issue could be that the surface of that disc is just physically scratched and not a burn issue anyway.

Sparks67 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 25, 2012, 08:25:11 pm »

Quote from: jmone on August 25, 2012, 07:47:40 pm

FYI - When I converted all my HD-DVD to BD's I did a verify and never had a failure. When ripping all of these (now twice) to HDD I had only one problematic BD that keep throwing up read errors but it was (just) ok on the drive that burnt it. So far that is under 1% failure rate of the issue could be that the surface of that disc is just physically scratched and not a burn issue anyway.

I was well under .05% with only one failure of CD-R's discs and I had over 2000 discs that were burnt optically. I did recently backup my array to hard drive, but it was easier to do. Well, I needed to move my hitachi drives to a new Chenbro case that I bought. One of my old hard drives did have failure, so I had to throw it away. So what if that had 1Tb of backup storage on it? My failure rate would be probably around 15% with hard drive storage.

The main reason is that discs get scratched is handling and storage of the discs.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Fast BD Drive for Ripping? (Read 30219 times)