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[rjm]

I am building a new desktop system with:
- integrated graphics
- 16 GB DDR3 1600
- 1 x SSD
- 5 x SATA drives
- no overclocking
- no gaming
- excellent for hidef video viewing
- good for video encoding
- want a stable cool quiet system
- expect to squeeze 6 years of use out of it

I am leaning towards the Asus P8Z77-M Pro motherboard $155:
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77M_PRO/#overview

Why this board? Only one I could find with DVI + HDMI + e-Sata on back panel and I want all 3.

I am trying to decide between these 2 processors:

Intel Core i5 3570K Unlocked Quad Core Processor LGA1155 3.4GHZ Ivy Bridge 6MB Retail $220
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processor-comparison/processor-specifications.html?proc=65520

Intel Core i7 3770K Unlocked Quad Core Hyperthreading Processor LGA1155 3.5GHZ Ivy Bridge 8MB Retail $330
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processor-comparison/processor-specifications.html?proc=65523

1) Anyone think I am making a mistake on the motherboard? I can wait several months if necessary for something better.

2) Which of the 2 processors?

3) Anyone have enough experience to eyeball the optimal power supply size for this system?

[rjm]

Found a couple power supply calculators that say a 400 watt supply is all I need.
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp
http://support.asus.com/powersupply.aspx

[glynor]

No, you are not making any big mistakes, and the cheaper CPU.

The Core i5 3570k is a good choice.  The performance gained by going up to the 3770K is relatively minor (diminishing returns).  If you are going to consider going with an i7 (to get the hyper threading bump, basically), at all, consider the vanilla i7-3770.  The K is a marginal 100mHz faster (though this varies in practice because of the Turbo features), and isn't unlocked, but it is quite a bit cheaper, and a better value (if you don't intend to overclock).

Still, though... The 3570K is an even better value.  With your described use case, I'd go with that.

The only other note is that I struggled with the same eSATA quandary with the ASUS boards, but on the bigger ones.

Bear in mind, you can make a pair of eSATA ports by simply rerouting two of your internal SATA ports to a PCI Slot with one of those cheap wire bracket things (usu like $6).  But, of course, you want a bunch of drives, so sacrificing those internal ports is a bitter pill.  So then you're to getting a real PCIe eSATA card for more money and with a potentially flaky controller.  The ASMedia ones ASUS is using on the Z77-M Pro is a decent one (mine has the same chip and they've been trouble-free).

I went with the Deluxe (of the full sized boards), and this was one of the biggest reasons (and the Intel LAN chip).  They did it on purpose.

I know nev got the M Pro and is (I think) happy with it.  I'm EXTREMELY pleased with my Z77-V Deluxe.

[InflatableMouse]

I have that board, minus the 'pro', in my HTPC. I went with the i5 cpu, I have 380watts PSU.

Low profile memory are needed for most CPU coolers these days, I went with Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 1600MHz CL9.

For the SSD I went with Samsung 128GB.

Which case do you have in mind?

[rjm]

No, you are not making any big mistakes, and the cheaper CPU.

i5 it is then, thanks for saving me $, maybe runs a little cooler too?

Bear in mind, you can make a pair of eSATA ports by simply rerouting two of your internal SATA ports to a PCI Slot with one of those cheap wire bracket things (usu like $6).

Forgot about this option, thanks.

The Deluxe adds the Marvel controller for a total of 10 SATA so even if I route 2 to the rear I am still ahead by 2 for internal use over the P8Z77-M Pro. But then I lose DVI and will have to buy a new monitor. 

Before I dive back into comparing the various models 2 things I would like to be clear on.

1) network: Intel better than Realtek - I'm not too fussy about my network as long as it works - should I care about Intel?

2) SATA: ASMedia better than Marvel - is this significant? I do hate it when e-SATA does not work nicely and I've run into a few controllers that are crappy. Is Marvel one of the bad ones?

[rjm]

I have that board, minus the 'pro', in my HTPC. I went with the i5 cpu, I have 380watts PSU.

I am leaning to the Seasonic 400 watt fanless. Reviews are excellent.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=55673

Low profile memory are needed for most CPU coolers these days, I went with Corsair Vengeance LP DDR3 1600MHz CL9.

I was going to get these because they are 2 x 8GB leaving me 2 slots free and they are cheap. But they are not low profile.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=70944

I could get this 4 x 4GB low profile for $10 more but then all my slots are full.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=62313

I'm not planning to use a custom cooler. Is low profile important? I don't see anyone in the forums talking too much about it.

For the SSD I went with Samsung 128GB.

I need a little more than 128GB and I am leaning to the SanDisk Extreme 240GB.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=69895

Which case do you have in mind?

I love my current Antec P180 so I plan to go with the next gen Antec P280.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=65170

[InflatableMouse]

I am leaning to the Seasonic 400 watt fanless. Reviews are excellent.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=55673

Seasonic is perfect but they are expensive, that's all.

I was going to get these because they are 2 x 8GB leaving me 2 slots free and they are cheap. But they are not low profile.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=70944

I could get this 4 x 4GB low profile for $10 more but then all my slots are full.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=62313

I'm not planning to use a custom cooler. Is low profile important? I don't see anyone in the forums talking too much about it.

With the stock cooler, you won't need LP memory. But as you're spending good money on silence (fanless PSU), you should consider an aftermarket cooler with a 120mm fan. It makes a huge difference, especially under load. I have been using Scythe Mugen 2b (not the newer v3, they are not as good) with a silent 120mm fan, for instance a RealSilent PWM 120mm. Problem is, the memory banks are right next to the CPU, so fitting a big cooler like a Mugen won't fit with regular memory modules.

I need a little more than 128GB and I am leaning to the SanDisk Extreme 240GB.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=69895

I'm not familiar with the Sandisk SSD's, my main PC has the Samsung 256GB. I choose Samsung because they are cheap and one of the fastest at the moment.

I love my current Antec P180 so I plan to go with the next gen Antec P280.
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=65170

I've heard the 280 is not as good as the 180 in terms of silence and cooling performance. I'm still using a 180 for my HTPC and I absolutely love that box.

[glynor]

The Deluxe adds the Marvel controller for a total of 10 SATA so even if I route 2 to the rear I am still ahead by 2 for internal use over the P8Z77-M Pro. But then I lose DVI and will have to buy a new monitor. 

No, you wouldn't:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042801&p_id=4827&seq=1&format=2

If you have DisplayPort, you have a DVI.  Converting from HDMI would work too.  What resolution is your monitor?

[InflatableMouse]

If you have DisplayPort, you have a DVI.  Converting from HDMI would work too.  What resolution is your monitor?

At least for HTPC use, make sure HDCP is still supported when using converters. Probably won't be an issue but shouldn't be overlooked either.

[glynor]

I'm not planning to use a custom cooler. Is low profile important? I don't see anyone in the forums talking too much about it.

Don't worry about it at all if you aren't going to use a custom cooler.

If you are, and you aren't building a small form factor box, then also don't worry about it because the tall coolers will all have appropriate clearance (unless you pick VERY badly).  This really only applies if you are building a small form factor box and you need to pick an odd cooler to fit in the small space.

You're using a big case, so don't even worry about it.  Since you aren't overclocking, I'd try out the stock cooler.  If later you are concerned about noise, then I'd look at the Noctua coolers.  They have a nice compatibility guide for all of their coolers which should make it easy to ensure it'll fit with the RAM slots populated.  I have NO issues with the GSkill Ripjaws DDR3 sticks on my Z77-V Deluxe board and my Noctua cooler (even if I have all four RAM slots populated).

At least for HTPC use, make sure HDCP is still supported when using converters. Probably won't be an issue but shouldn't be overlooked either.

He said he was building a desktop system (which is why I thought the small form factor stuff doesn't apply), but you still want DHCP if your monitor supports it.  The cables should be fine (I've never hit an issue).  Converting from DisplayPort can be flaky, though, and I really don't know the deal with the Intel GPU (to go from DP to DVI the video card has to support DVI over DP, and not all do).

If your monitor is 1920x1200 or below, you can just use one of these:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10231&cs_id=1023104&p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2

If your monitor is a big 27" job with a higher resolution, then I'd probably go with a discreet GPU anyway, so that's neither here nor there.

I should add... I still think the V77-M Pro is a great little board.  The main reason I went with the full-sized board and didn't get that one was that it gave me a couple extra SATA ports, and the big board has the header to add ThunderBolt later, and I do use a bunch of PCIe cards (TV Tuners, RAID cards, and whatnot).  I actually have a few ThunderBolt devices now, so this matters to me, and I wanted to have the capability to switch to an external Thunderbolt RAID solution in the future when/if I outgrow my exsiting miniSAS solution.  It also has the WiFi and built-in Bluetooth and whatnot, but I've never even bothered to hook up the antennas for those features (and the WiFi drivers aren't even installed yet, I keep meaning to do that).  If I upgrade my HTPC this "cycle" (I'm probably waiting for Haswell, but we'll see), I'm going to get the M Pro unless they release a new SFF version that includes Thunderbolt.

If you don't care about Thunderbolt and you aren't going to fill it with a bunch of PCIe cards, then instead of paying extra for the upgrade to the bigger board, I'd probably stick with the M Pro.  Consider instead adding a "real" SATA/SAS RAID card.  This will give you all of the internal SATA ports you need (otherwise with your drive list above, you're going to be maxed out except for eSATA), and it'll probably perform better and provide additional features like online RAID expansion.

I'm saving up now for a LSI card, I think.  I have a Highpoint SAS RAID card now and it works fine, but the drivers/utilities are a steaming pile of fail.  They work, but it feels like I'm using an application written to target Windows 95 (and badly even then).

[glynor]

Seasonic is perfect but they are expensive, that's all.

Agreed.

I'm not familiar with the Sandisk SSD's, my main PC has the Samsung 256GB. I choose Samsung because they are cheap and one of the fastest at the moment.

The Samsung SSDs are the best ones on the market right now, though they do have a bit of a price-premium.

I have one of the Corsair Force GT 240GB drives in my HTPC and it is great.  The GT is the same as the Force 3 (Sandforce controller) only it uses the faster ONFI synchronous NAND.  The Sandforce drives have a checkered reliability history, but Corsair has been particularly good about firmware updates, and the dust seems to have settled on the Sandforce firmware anyway.  The only vendor I'd avoid is OCZ, and that's primarily because they seem to have some poor customer service skills (when the firmware bugs were bad, they seemed to take a serious "blame the user" tack, and their Firmware updater requires you to wipe the drive, which is annoying).

That Sandisk has a good price, a decent controller (the Sandforce) and is probably a solid choice.  I too have no experience with them for support or firmware, but the drive itself is a good deal and it isn't like Sandisk has a BAD name (and they have plenty of NAND experience).

[rjm]

I have been using Scythe Mugen 2b (not the newer v3, they are not as good) with a silent 120mm fan, for instance a RealSilent PWM 120mm.

Thanks for the tip.

I'm not familiar with the Sandisk SSD's, my main PC has the Samsung 256GB. I choose Samsung because they are cheap and one of the fastest at the moment.

The Samsung's seem to be more expensive. I'll start watching for a sale.

[rjm]

If you have DisplayPort, you have a DVI.  Converting from HDMI would work too.  What resolution is your monitor?

Excellent! 1920x1200 which is supported by the onboard graphics.

[rjm]

If you don't care about Thunderbolt and you aren't going to fill it with a bunch of PCIe cards, then instead of paying extra for the upgrade to the bigger board, I'd probably stick with the M Pro.  on written to target Windows 95 (and badly even then).

Great advice. The Deluxe is an extra $130. Will think on this.

[rjm]

Another question regarding WiFi built in to the Deluxe motherboard.

I have read the Asus marketing hype and I'm not clear on the advantages of their WiFi.

My intent is to connect my desktop to a high quality wireless router via a Gigabit wire. So my question is will I ever use the built-in Wi-Fi feature of the motherboard?

I definitely intend to stream media from my desktop to various devices (Apple-TV, Airport Express, iPad) but its not clear to me if streaming will be better using the motherboard WiFi rather than my high end WiFi router.

[glynor]

Another question regarding WiFi built in to the Deluxe motherboard.

I have read the Asus marketing hype and I'm not clear on the advantages of their WiFi.

My intent is to connect my desktop to a high quality wireless router via a Gigabit wire. So my question is will I ever use the built-in Wi-Fi feature of the motherboard?

No.  You probably won't use it.

The iOS stuff they advertise is all junk that would be easier/better accomplished with regular apps.  It is all about making the computer act as a ad-hoc WiFi network and then connecting your iPad to it to transfer files and stuff back and forth.  But, if you use the ad-hoc setup like they advertise, then you'd have to switch your iPad/iPod/iDevice to a different WiFi hotspot (and lose Internet connectivity) in order to use these apps.  Wouldn't it be easier to just use your "real" WiFi network and an app that can directly connect to a Windows file share?  There are plenty of those in the App Store.  Yeah... Junk.

It could come in handy in a couple situations:

1. If you need to use WiFi to get the machine online (no wired connection).  Especially if you might drag the rig around to other people's houses for LANparties.
2. If you don't have a WiFi router, then the machine could make one (through Internet Connection Sharing).
3. If you have a complex network setup, it could allow you to connect to a WiFi network that isn't part of your main LAN to do testing/configuration.
4. You could make the box into your firewall/router (install something like pfSense on it), but that's a pretty powerful rig to just run a Linux/BSD firewall distro.

The third thing above is what I think I might eventually do with mine.  I have two separate WiFi networks at my house.  I have my main (encrypted) WiFi network that is "part of" my LAN.  Then, I have a separate WiFi router that is just totally open and is connected to my DMZ, for when guests come to my house, so I don't have to give them my 100 character password and let them on my private LAN.  Administering this router is a PITA now because I have to either enable remote admin on it and poke a hole through to the DMZ on my Firewall, or I have to plug into it directly.

Currently, I just do this admin using my laptop.  I figured with this I could use my main server to do it, and just connect to my "public" WiFi when needed for testing or whatever.  Like I said, I've never bothered to install the drivers or plug in the antenna.

The Bluetooth is handy.  The WiFi is... meh.

[glynor]

Excellent! 1920x1200 which is supported by the onboard graphics.

I should note... I'd go from HDMI to DVI first unless you need to go from DisplayPort.

Like I said... Going from DisplayPort to DVI depends on support from the GPU.  Nvidia and AMD GPUs both support it fine, but I have no idea if the Intel integrated GPU does.  Plus, it is cheaper.  I linked to a HDMI->DVI cable from Monoprice above for less than $4.  You can buy them in stores locally too.  My local po-dunk RadioShack and Walmart have them in stock (though they're $30 there).

HDMI = DVI with a different connector.  HDMI is generally limited to single-link DVI bandwidth, which is why I asked about resolution.  Also, most DVI inputs/outputs don't allow you to connect the audio, but the DVI wire can actually carry the same kind of audio as HDMI.  Other than those two things, HDMI and DVI are interchangeable.

Of course, if you get the M Pro, then you have a "real" DVI port, so it doesn't matter.

[rjm]

Thanks Glynor. You sure know your stuff!

Now that I have a solution for my video connection I think I've talked myself into the Deluxe because of the extra SATA ports.

Now I am chewing on the O/S decision.

Was going to get Windows 7 Professional 64Bit OEM for $150 but then will need to pay another $40 for Windows 8 upgrade later this year.

I read that I might be able to install Windows 8 beta for free then pay $70 for a license in October.

Anyone know if this cheaper Windows 8 beta path is real and low enough risk for me to take?
And that I won't have to reinstall all my apps?

[rjm]

Got a response from Microsoft on the upgrade path.

Looks like if I don't want to reinstall my apps I need to buy Windows 7 now and pay $40 later to upgrade to 8.

Because I am building the system myself I do not qualify for the $15 upgrade that new PC buyers get now.

[rjm]

Since the main reason (for me) to pay $130 extra for the V-Deluxe over the M-Pro is the extra SATA ports I thought I'd price a good quality SATA port add-in card as per Glynor's suggestion.

LSI has a gazillion models but the cheapest start at $200 and head north of $1000.

The cheapest SATA3 add-in card I could find was Supermicro 8 ports for $120.

So it seems paying an extra $130 for the Deluxe is not too bad a deal, especially since you do get a few other extras like Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and a 2nd wired network port.

Glynor, I did not see anything from Asus about upgrading the Deluxe to Thunderbolt. What will be involved to do this at a later date?

[glynor]

Glynor, I did not see anything from Asus about upgrading the Deluxe to Thunderbolt. What will be involved to do this at a later date?

They're going to sell an add-in card for them (for around $40).  It is coming out soon, I think.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5935/asus-thunderbolt-ex-upgrade-card-for-7series-motherboards

The motherboard has to have the "thunderbolt header" for this to work, though, in order to route the DisplayPort video output to the ThunderBolt controller.

Got a response from Microsoft on the upgrade path.

Looks like if I don't want to reinstall my apps I need to buy Windows 7 now and pay $40 later to upgrade to 8.

Because I am building the system myself I do not qualify for the $15 upgrade that new PC buyers get now.

Yeah, I figured.

There is a solution though... Probably.  Do you know someone who has a Windows 7 disc?  You can install Windows 7 and use it without activating it (without a key) for 120 days.
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-7/extend-the-windows-7-trial-from-30-to-120-days/

Then, when Windows 8 comes out, you can either decide to buy it and install it (and upgrade your Windows 7 install), or (if you decide not to get Windows 8 in the end) just get a Windows 7 license at that time and enter the key.

[InflatableMouse]

They're going to sell an add-in card for them.  It is coming out soon, I think.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5935/asus-thunderbolt-ex-upgrade-card-for-7series-motherboards

The motherboard has to have the "thunderbolt header" for this to work, though, in order to route the DisplayPort video output to the ThunderBolt controller.

Maybe I missed it but I was looking at the screenshots for the -M, PRO and -V DLX boards, and I don't see the TB_HEADERs on there?

[glynor]

Maybe I missed it but I was looking at the screenshots for the -M, PRO and -V DLX boards, and I don't see the TB_HEADERs on there?

The V Deluxe has it.  The M Pro doesn't (none of the small boards do).

There's a list on that Anandtech article that spells out which do and which don't.

EDIT:  Actually, it looks like the P8H77-M Pro has it.

[InflatableMouse]

Yeh I see it on the -V DLX, bottom right corner near the USB headers.

[glynor]

Yep.

It is dumb that the H77-M Pro has it but the V77-M Pro doesn't.  That H77-M Pro board looks like a nice option though.

If you aren't ever going to overclock and you aren't going to ever run dual discrete GPUs (SLI or Crossfire), then there's no reason not to get an h77 based board.

I'd forgotten about those.  I ruled it out because I might overclock or run a dual GPU setup at some point in the future.

[rjm]

There is a solution though... Probably.  Do you know someone who has a Windows 7 disc?  You can install Windows 7 and use it without activating it (without a key) for 120 days.
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-7/extend-the-windows-7-trial-from-30-to-120-days/

Then, when Windows 8 comes out, you can either decide to buy it and install it (and upgrade your Windows 7 install), or (if you decide not to get Windows 8 in the end) just get a Windows 7 license at that time and enter the key.

Great tip, thanks. My son has a Windows 7 license.

[rjm]

Glynor,

I had another look at the Sabertooth vs. Deluxe. Sabertooth is same price; adds fancy cooling (with small maybe irritating fans that can be turned off), longer warranty, and maybe better reliability; and loses wi-fi, bluetooth, and 2nd network.

Advice on the intertubes is conflicting. Some think the Deluxe is better for overclocking (provided you water cool) and others think that the Sabertooth is better for over clocking. I will not overclock. I want stability, long life, and quiet. I don't care about wi-fi, bluetooth, or 2nd network.

Bunches of kids think the Sabertooth looks cool. I do not care what it looks like.

Is Deluxe still the best choice for me?

[Sparks67]

Probably should look at this motherboard.   http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_PROTHUNDERBOLT/

I have one and it is rather nice. Thunderbolt will allow you to place the hard drives away from the HTPC. 
I do have 2 SSD drives in this case, but I will have the option in the future to add more drives with Areca storage that is designed around thunderbolt.  http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm
The advantage of the Areca is built in raid, and with the optical cable that will be available.  You can place that storage cabinet away from the pc. 

Here is the passive power supply that was used in the HTPC.  http://www.amazon.com/KingWin-Stryker-500-Watt-Fanless-STR-500/dp/B005CM8V4I/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_3 It has potential to do 600watts overclocked.  The case is very silent. 

DVI and VGA is slated to go away in the future, but it is being replaced with DisplayPort.  Cpu is up to you, but you are looking at the overclocked models with the letter K.

[rjm]

Probably should look at this motherboard.   http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_PROTHUNDERBOLT/

I have one and it is rather nice. Thunderbolt will allow you to place the hard drives away from the HTPC. 
I do have 2 SSD drives in this case, but I will have the option in the future to add more drives with Areca storage that is designed around thunderbolt.  http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm
The advantage of the Areca is built in raid, and with the optical cable that will be available.  You can place that storage cabinet away from the pc. 

Here is the passive power supply that was used in the HTPC.  http://www.amazon.com/KingWin-Stryker-500-Watt-Fanless-STR-500/dp/B005CM8V4I/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_3 It has potential to do 600watts overclocked.  The case is very silent. 

DVI and VGA is slated to go away in the future, but it is being replaced with DisplayPort.  Cpu is up to you, but you are looking at the overclocked models with the letter K.

Thanks, I considered this board and decided against it because I need 10 SATA and it has only 8, plus I probably won't use Thunderbolt, and if I do decide to use Thunderbolt I can upgrade either the Deluxe or Sabertooth for small cost.

I did not know K was for overclockers. I will not be overclocking. I chose K because that is what is on sale.

[Sparks67]

Thanks, I considered this board and decided against it because I need 10 SATA and it has only 8, plus I probably won't use Thunderbolt, and if I do decide to use Thunderbolt I can upgrade either the Deluxe or Sabertooth for small cost.

I did not know K was for overclockers. I will not be overclocking. I chose K because that is what is on sale.

Thunderbolt needs to be on the motherboard, it is not attached card.  If you plan to use 10 hard drives, then you can't use a passive power supply.  Hard drives take 35 watts per drive, so that is 350 watts.  Cpu will take another 65 watts, and other accessories you plan to use. Motherboard will take some watts, but not sure how many it takes.   SSD drive is 3 watts.   The Areca or Sans Digital NAS has it's own power supply, and you can daisy chain up to 6 enclosures to the thunderbolt port.  With the Thunderbolt option you have potential to have up 48 drives on one thunderbolt port.  Gigabyte has the option to have dual thunderbolt ports on their motherboard.  GIGABYTE GA-Z77X-UP5 TH

Later on, you might want to have a new video card instead of the integrated video.  Also, you stated that you want a quiet PC.  Hard drives are noisy and generate heat.  So, you need them away from the pc.  SSD drives are fine for quiet. 

You can do 8 SATA, and use a cheap raid card to give you 2 more Sata ports.  I done that in the past, and I needed more drive space.  I was out of SATA ports, so I had to upgrade to a Raid card. 

[rjm]

Thunderbolt needs to be on the motherboard, it is not attached card. 

Glynor provided a link above for info on a Thunderbolt add-on. Very few m/b have this ability.

If you plan to use 10 hard drives, then you can't use a passive power supply. 

5 internal HDD, 1 SSD, 1 dvd, 1 blu-ray, 2 external HDD. I think I am ok with 400 watts. Will double check.

Cheapest SATA3 add-in I could find was $120 (see above for details).

[rjm]

Yep, even with 30% derating for capacitor aging and assuming I add a low end graphics card for a second monitor I am still under 400 watts, and reviews suggest the p/s I picked can easily supply more than 400 if pushed.

[InflatableMouse]

Yep, even with 30% derating for capacitor aging and assuming I add a low end graphics card for a second monitor I am still under 400 watts, and reviews suggest the p/s I picked can easily supply more than 400 if pushed.

It probably can, Seasonics are very good. But do realize when you push it above 90%, its efficiency will drop considerably. If you push to supply around a 100% continuously, I'm not sure even a Seasonic would hold up for very long.

I try to pick a PSU that supplies my needed wattage under load in its sweet spot, the point at which its efficiency is highest because that means that under load, it supplies it with the least generated heat.

I don't know how you calculated and how far off the maximum of 400W you are, just an idea but maybe you want to consider the Seasonic 460W then, its fanless too and you may end up closer to the 80% under load.

[rjm]

It probably can, Seasonics are very good. But do realize when you push it above 90%, its efficiency will drop considerably. If you push to supply around a 100% continuously, I'm not sure even a Seasonic would hold up for very long.

I try to pick a PSU that supplies my needed wattage under load in its sweet spot, the point at which its efficiency is highest because that means that under load, it supplies it with the least generated heat.

I don't know how you calculated and how far off the maximum of 400W you are, just an idea but maybe you want to consider the Seasonic 460W then, its fanless too and you may end up closer to the 80% under load.

Attached is the calculator I used that recommends a 379 watt supply with 30% derating for aging capacitors. Please let me know if you think I should go bigger then 400 watts.

My normal supplier does not have the Seasonic fanless 480 so I may need to select a different model if I go bigger.

I am a little uneasy that I am spending money unwisely on the Seasonic fanless since there are so many less expensive options. In particular, I wonder if the benefits of a fanless p/s will be canceled by my use of the stock cpu cooler? Note: My case has 3 x 120mm fans, all of which will be on low speed, and reviews suggest they are very quiet. I have no graphics card with a noisy fan.

My priorities in descending order are: system stability, lifetime, cost, quiet. Suggestions welcome. Thanks for your help.

[rjm]

I should of done some more reading. Sounds like Seasonics with fans are also very quiet and turn their fans off when not needed. If you think I need to go bigger then these 2 look like reasonable choices unless someone has a better suggestion.

Seasonic X-560 ATX 12V 24PIN 560W Active PFC 80PLUS Gold Modular Power Supply W Sanyo Denki Fan $132
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=55672

Seasonic M12II 520W EPS12V 20/24PIN ATX PFC 80+ Bronze Modular Connectors 6PIN PCI-E 120MM Fan $90
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=52175

[Sparks67]

Here is a recent review of the Kingwin Silent Power supply.  http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1220-page1.html  It is compared against Seasonic and Silverstone in this review.  The problem that I found on the 500Watt passive power supply, it was hard to find a vendor that supplied them.  Silverstone is rather expensive, but I only deal with 2 vendors Amazon or Newegg.  So, after reading a few reviews, then I chose the Kingwin.  Kingwin is one of the recommended PSU at http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/category=Quiet_Power_Supplies.html  Kingwin regular power suppplies turn off their fans as well.  
As far as Power supplies are concerned, and reliability. 21 watts is cutting it close.  I want probably a 500W PSU.  

I have built several HTPC's and the biggest thing is that you start filling up those drives. You can remove and replace them with a new drive, but after awhile you want everything online.  I had a Rackmount server with 16 (2TB) Hitachi hard drives.   It was fine in terms of space, but was noisy.  I went with a cheap Norco case and I replaced all the fans.  Still it was noisy.  (Glynor hasn't built a rackmount yet)   Thunderbolt is very flexible for the HTPC hard drive design.  

I forgot about the Asus Thunderbolt card, but realize it is $200 option.  It eats up a PCI-E spot, so what is cheaper?  A 249 motherboard with Thunderbolt on it vs your motherboard without thunderbolt ($279 Deluxe and $200 card) = $479.  (Oh, I have used that PCI-E slot for a RAID card.)  Actually, the reason that I chose the ASUS P8Z77-V PRO/THUNDERBOLT was primary for the PCI slots.  It gives me 2 pci slots for sound cards.  (I use the ASUS Xonar Essence ST with H6 for the sound cards.)  I have used onboard sound in 2008, it was Realtek in the past.  Never cared for it.    

In 2013, you might want to upgrade to 4k video. I heard of a few prototypes, but size is around 32".  Cost is unknown at this time.   So you need to think about this in the future.  As far as video cards, then you can use a Professional card.  It uses less watts, than the consumer cards.  I have replaced the fans to quiet fans on video cards.  http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/w7000/Pages/w7000.aspx#1

[Sparks67]

With the stock cooler, you won't need LP memory. But as you're spending good money on silence (fanless PSU), you should consider an aftermarket cooler with a 120mm fan. It makes a huge difference, especially under load. I have been using Scythe Mugen 2b (not the newer v3, they are not as good) with a silent 120mm fan, for instance a RealSilent PWM 120mm. Problem is, the memory banks are right next to the CPU, so fitting a big cooler like a Mugen won't fit with regular memory modules.

To the Original poster.  I recommend that you consider a custom stock cooler.  Why?   I received one from Intel that was DOA.  Well, it turned for a bit, and then died.  Could have been once in life time thing, but it was traced to the stock cooler.

I'm not familiar with the Sandisk SSD's, my main PC has the Samsung 256GB. I choose Samsung because they are cheap and one of the fastest at the moment.

I have the 120GB Sandisk SSD Extreme on my boot drive for my HTPC.  http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-2-5-Inch-Solid-SDSSDX-240G-G25/dp/B006EKJ8UI  This was rather cheap, but it is fast. I chose this brand, because it was recommended on this site for mac OS X.  http://tonymacx86.blogspot.com/search/label/CustoMac  I have a Corsair Force Series GT 480GB SATA 3 6Gb/s Solid-State Hard Drive as the other SSD in that case.

My main PC has the Intel 520 Cherryville at 240Gb, so if you want a reliable SSD, then Intel 520 is the only with a 5 year warranty.  Costs more though. 

[glynor]

Glynor,

I had another look at the Sabertooth vs. Deluxe. Sabertooth is same price; adds fancy cooling (with small maybe irritating fans that can be turned off), longer warranty, and maybe better reliability; and loses wi-fi, bluetooth, and 2nd network.

When I bought mine, the Sabertooth was substantially more expensive.

Things I like about the Deluxe:

1. Intel NIC
2. Z77 chipset so it supports dual GPUs and overclocking (I'm not using either now, but may in the future, particularly the dual GPU support)
3. No legacy PCI slots (which I'd never use and are just in the way) and plenty of PCIe slots in a nice configuration
4. 2x eSATA on the back port cluster, and still a nice array of internal SATA (they didn't just "steal" internal ports to stick them on the back)
5. ASMedia SATA controller for those back ports (the ASMedia controller is much better than the sometimes-flaky Marvell ones).
6. ThunderBolt header
7. The onboard BIOS error code display thing (which is super-handy)
8. Bluetooth onboard.
9. Second NIC (wish it was Intel) that I can assign to my VMWare Workstation and use exclusively for them (rather than bridging my main connection).

The Sabertooth version looks much the same with these differences:

1. No dual NIC, though the onboard one is Intel (which is good).
2. The "auxiliary" internal SATA ports are hung off of the ASMedia controller, rather than adding a separate Marvell (probably a good thing, not sure why they did that different with the deluxe).
3. The audio codec (Realtek) is nicer on the Deluxe.  The one on the Sabertooth is a cheaper/older model (I think the difference is that the Deluxe's can do real-time Dolby encoding for game audio and whatnot).
4. No Bluetooth or Wifi (meh).
5. It only has 6 total (4 on back, 2 internal on board) USB3 ports, the Deluxe has 8 total.
6. The Sabertooth has two extra USB2 ports (10 vs 8 total).
7. The Sabertooth has one fewer PCIe 1x slots.
8. The Sabertooth has a bunch of esoteric overclocking-specific features that you'll never understand and almost certainly won't use if you don't own a liquid nitrogen tank.
9. The Sabertooth board is covered with those plastic things which look dumb (or awesome, depending on your point of view) and are really only useful for liquid cooling.

And that's basically it.  So the Sabertooth has fewer "features" (as far as ports and whatnot), but has all that extra overclocking-specific stuff.  For the same price, I'd go with the Deluxe (I did).  If the Sabertooth is less, then I'd look at what features you're giving up and decide what matters to you, now and in the future.

[rjm]

So the Sabertooth has fewer "features" (as far as ports and whatnot), but has all that extra overclocking-specific stuff.  For the same price, I'd go with the Deluxe (I did).  

Excellent analysis. I came to the same conclusion adding to your list of rationales that anything marketed to kids who put priority on cool looks is probably something to avoid. Plus I would turn off those little whiny fans and then the plastic shrouds might actually be a disadvantage since they are bound to trap heat.

[rjm]

I watched this review of the Noctua NH-D14 cooler and have added it to my parts lists. I love the fact that it is super quiet, even in the unlikely event that I try overclocking some day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKHRPJfZ5Y8

I'm getting real close to pushing the buy button (maybe later today). Power supply is the final decision I have to make. I am leaning towards:

Seasonic X-560 ATX 12V 24PIN 560W Active PFC 80PLUS Gold Modular Power Supply W Sanyo Denki Fan $132
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=55672

Any final thoughts from anyone on power supplies?
 

[InflatableMouse]

Both choices are excellent. Noctua makes good coolers and that PSU is good too IMO. With proper PSU's, it will be the last fan you hear (unless your entire system is fanless, obviously then its the first one you hear ).

[Listener]

I watched this review of the Noctua NH-D14 cooler and have added it to my parts lists. I love the fact that it is super quiet, even in the unlikely event that I try overclocking some day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKHRPJfZ5Y8

I'm getting real close to pushing the buy button (maybe later today). Power supply is the final decision I have to make. I am leaning towards:

Seasonic X-560 ATX 12V 24PIN 560W Active PFC 80PLUS Gold Modular Power Supply W Sanyo Denki Fan $132
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=55672

Any final thoughts from anyone on power supplies?
 

Look at http://www.silentpcreview.com/ for good tests on cases, power supplies, hard drives, motherboards and CPUs. Spark67's 35 Watts / drive seems pretty high to me.

You haven't said much about what's going to be on those hard drives and what s/w you will be running.  For many workloads, quiet 5400 RPM drives will perform well enough.  Energy consumption and heat production will be much lower than for 5 7200 RPM drives.  The new Western Digital red series drives look like good choices.

If you aren't going to be running CPU intensive tasks, then a modern Intel CPU won't be producing much heat in normal operation.  You still have to design for adequate cooling in case a runaway task causes 100% use of CPU and GPU.  The system need not be quiet in that case however.

If you use a fanless power supply, you need to provide open ventilation for heat to rise out of the power supply.  Some standard mounting arrangements don't provide that ventilation above the power supply.

I use a Seasonic X-560 in my personal.  I didn't need that much power but I wanted the fanless at low power feature, low ripple and good reliability.  I mounted it in the bottom of my case so that air enters through the bottom of the case directly into the power supply and exits out the back of the power supply.  The power supply has its own convention path and is isolated thermally from the rest of the case.  The fan does not come on in my low power system.

I have a Seasonic SII 380 watt power supply that is still running quietly after 6 years.

Bill

[rjm]

Look at http://www.silentpcreview.com/ for good tests on cases, power supplies, hard drives, motherboards and CPUs. Spark67's 35 Watts / drive seems pretty high to me.

You haven't said much about what's going to be on those hard drives and what s/w you will be running.  For many workloads, quiet 5400 RPM drives will perform well enough.  Energy consumption and heat production will be much lower than for 5 7200 RPM drives.  The new Western Digital red series drives look like good choices.

If you aren't going to be running CPU intensive tasks, then a modern Intel CPU won't be producing much heat in normal operation.  You still have to design for adequate cooling in case a runaway task causes 100% use of CPU and GPU.  The system need not be quiet in that case however.

If you use a fanless power supply, you need to provide open ventilation for heat to rise out of the power supply.  Some standard mounting arrangements don't provide that ventilation above the power supply.

I use a Seasonic X-560 in my personal.  I didn't need that much power but I wanted the fanless at low power feature, low ripple and good reliability.  I mounted it in the bottom of my case so that air enters through the bottom of the case directly into the power supply and exits out the back of the power supply.  The power supply has its own convention path and is isolated thermally from the rest of the case.  The fan does not come on in my low power system.

I have a Seasonic SII 380 watt power supply that is still running quietly after 6 years.

Bill

Hey Bill,

I will mostly be using 3TB 5400rpm green Western Digitals but I will also be using one Seagate 7200rpm 3TB because I make 3 HDD copies of everything and never put all 3 copies on the same brand/model of drive. These 2 drives are the only cheap 3TB drives available to me at this time.

All of my performance critical stuff (o/s, applications, databases, JRiver library & cache, etc.) will be on a SSD. The balance of my stuff is mostly media (video, audio, images, books) and will be stored on the green drives which don't need to be fast.

The red WDs look good but they are $70 more than the green WDs and I need 6 which makes them beyond my budget.

Your success with the X-560 makes me feel confident to proceed with it. I also will be mounting it in the bottom of the case.

With regard to cpu cooling, are you saying that assuming no overclocking and a light load that the stock Intel 3570k cooler will be pretty much silent? If yes, I can cancel the Noctua and save $80.

[rjm]

I'm getting very excited. 

My 7 year old AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ XP system with 2GB ram was cutting edge when I built it (a $4,000 system at the time!) but is very tired now and takes 2+ minutes to boot, 1+ minute to shut down, I have to back up with USB 2.0 because my crappy SATA controller does not work well with e-SATA, encoding to h264 takes forever, and I cannot play video with JRiver's Red October.

It's gonna be great to have a new system!

Thanks everyone for your help. Really great bunch of smart people here.

[Listener]

I will mostly be using 3TB 5400rpm green Western Digitals but I will also be using one Seagate 7200rpm 3TB because I make 3 HDD copies of everything and never put all 3 copies on the same brand/model of drive. These 2 drives are the only cheap 3TB drives available to me at this time.

The red WDs look good but they are $70 more than the green WDs and I need 6 which makes them beyond my budget.

I like WD Green drives and WD elements USB drives.  (I use exteran drives for backup. I keep one in a distant part of the house and another off-site.) I have a 3 TB Seagate USB drive for backup that is not quiet.  All the WD green drives are quiet.

> Your success with the X-560 makes me feel confident to proceed with it. I also will be mounting it in the bottom of the case.

> With regard to cpu cooling, are you saying that assuming no overclocking and a light load that the stock Intel 3570k cooler will be pretty
> much silent? If yes, I can cancel the Noctua and save $80.

Fairly quiet.  When I built my personal PC with a Sandy Bridge i5-2400 CPU, I decided to give the stock Intel heatsink fan a try.  9+ months later, I have not replaced it.  The other 2 PCs in the room are louder.  When I replace those PCs, then I might work on making my personal PC quieter.

If your motherboard has flexible fan controls, you will have any easy time.  If not, investigate a fan control program that runs under Windows.

Bill

[glynor]

Both choices are excellent. Noctua makes good coolers and that PSU is good too IMO. With proper PSU's, it will be the last fan you hear (unless your entire system is fanless, obviously then its the first one you hear ).

+1

[glynor]

2. The "auxiliary" internal SATA ports are hung off of the ASMedia controller, rather than adding a separate Marvell (probably a good thing, not sure why they did that different with the deluxe).

By the way, I figured out why they did this.

The ASMedia controller is both a SATA 6G and a USB3 controller.  On the Deluxe, they used two of the "outputs" from the ASMedia controller as USB3, and added the Marvell to bring the total number of SATA ports to match.  On the Sabertooth, they used them as SATA on the board, and skipped the two USB3 ports.

In fact, adding using the ports this way forced them to remove that one missing PCIe 1x slot altogether.  Makes sense, because one of the PCIe 1x slots on the Deluxe can't be used because it is shared with the Marvell controller.  If you turn on the Marvell controller to use those two onboard SATA 6G ports, it turns off the one particular PCIe 1x slot (and vice versa).  But you wouldn't want that choice for the whole ASMedia chip and all of its ports, so they just pulled the slot out entirely.

That is pretty much for sure.  What I'm not sure about, but makes sense, is this:  They then didn't want the Sabertooth to have an overall lower number of USB ports (for those comparison spreadsheet charts websites always publish), so they added two more USB2 ports to the back of the Sabertooth and hoped no one would notice until after they got it.

[rjm]

Woo hoo! I passed the smoke test.

Bios is up on a monitor. CPU 27 degrees C and m/b 29 degrees. Nice and quiet. No drives in the system yet. Can't find the setting in the bios to set DDR3 to 1600 as per Glynor's suggestion. Will have to do some more digging.

Taking son to university tomorrow. Monday I install drives and O/S.

[rjm]

You were right about DisplayPort to DVI being fussy. Would not work at boot. Had to used HDMI to DVI. I hope DisplayPort to DVI works once Windows is up so I can use a second monitor without adding a graphics card.

[InflatableMouse]

Cards today use auto sensing to see which ports are connected and it should automatically activate the correct port at boot time.

In the past though the BIOS would have an option to force the use of a certain port, you could check your BIOS (or search the internet) to see if you can do something similar.

Maybe the converter screws up the auto sensing?