Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[InflatableMouse]

I've decided to take the plunge on the Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 addon when I found a shop that had them in stock for a decent price. I've been meaning to bypass the entire digital circuitry in my Denon AVR-4306 receiver for a while now, it sounds damp and lifeless. When I had a good CD player hooked up to it on its analog inputs, the sound was just so much richer, I am hoping to gain something similar by going analog from the HTPC.

I have a couple of questions, of course .

The receiver has that feature that it can take measurements with a mic. I've been looking at room correction settings in MC17 and 18 but I'm not quite sure about certain things. The receiver seemed to extrapolate numbers from 5 or more measurements and obviously made some compromises. I never liked how that worked and I eventually took 5 measurements from the main position . Even then it measured different distances for FL and FR and corrected with +2dB for FL. Audibly wrong and I manually corrected some of it until it sounded right.

If I want to do things right with MC once I get my shiny new stuff,
- Can I simply physically measure the distance to each speaker from the main listening position and enter them in ft?
- How do I determine the correct volume level of each channel?
- Bass Management confuses me, I can set a crossover for each channel but how does that work with Output Format which is set once for the entire system? The tooltip there says to do things in Room Correction, but the redirect confuses me (correction: I noticed the Silent (use room correction) option).

My subwoofer is a REL Q200E. I am using the LO input (SW output on the Denon with LFE set to 120Hz). Mode selector is set to Pos. 2 LFE (0 degree phase, bypass crossover).

I've set the Denon to 120Hz because then I can choose a lower crossover per channel in MC17. Is that the proper way or how else should I configure it?

Please share anything else you think is helpful in this situation.


Thanks guys!

[Matt]

- Can I simply physically measure the distance to each speaker from the main listening position and enter them in ft?

Yes, this is exactly the thing to do.  Do it before setting levels.

The distance setting also adjusts the volume level for matched-sets of speakers.  Of course you can customize the speaker levels with the volume slider, but if you set the distances, they're going to be pretty close even if you don't calibrate with a decibel meter.

[mojave]

I have an Essence ST and H6 and like them. They currently aren't in use in my systems, though. I need to bring them to work and install in my work computer.

According to pages 99-100 of your receiver manual, the Multi CH Direct mode that is used for analog inputs bypasses all of the DSP on the receiver. This means the receiver's crossover isn't in effect for the analog inputs. You should be able to set it where you need it for other sources. If you don't have any other sources you don't really need the receiver and should sell it immediately and get a multi-channel amp. 

[InflatableMouse]

Yes, this is exactly the thing to do.  Do it before setting levels.

The distance setting also adjusts the volume level for matched-sets of speakers.  Of course you can customize the speaker levels with the volume slider, but if you set the distances, they're going to be pretty close even if you don't calibrate with a decibel meter.

My surround speakers are different brand/set than my front speakers. Their much more sensitive than the front. When I'm using that test sound under Room Correction/Tools, should front/surround/center sound equally loud or doesn't it work that way?

How come that test sound sounds different in tone coming from the front left or front right speaker?

I have an Essence ST and H6 and like them. They currently aren't in use in my systems, though. I need to bring them to work and install in my work computer.

According to pages 99-100 of your receiver manual, the Multi CH Direct mode that is used for analog inputs bypasses all of the DSP on the receiver. This means the receiver's crossover isn't in effect for the analog inputs. You should be able to set it where you need it for other sources.

Thanks. Appreciate your feedback, but you did hit a nerve by mentioning the Denon manual . It's all meant in good fun though so read it with a wink .

The Denon manual. It's one of the worst manuals I have ever read. I passionately hate it. It is THE worst manual evah. I had it burried in a far away corner of the house but I just dug it up to read up about it .

I don't read anywhere that The EXT IN 8ch analog inputs are automatically direct mode. The table on page 100 that you refer to lists the mode selections on the receiver and they apply to all inputs in general. I can choose direct mode or pure direct mode on digital inputs as well, including HDMI.

The page for direct and pure direct modes begins with the following phrase:

The AVR-4306 is equipped with 3 2-channel playback modes exclusively for music. Select the mode to suit your tastes.

The modes are, STEREO, DIRECT MODE and PURE DIRECT MODE. The opening phrase on this page suggests that these modes do not work for the surround channels. I haven't tested that yet but I'm already pretty sure that this is not the case.

Direct mode is described as follows:

Use this mode to achieve good quality 2-channel sound. In this mode, the audio signals bypass such circuits as the tone circuit and are transmitted directly, resulting in good quality sound.

Pure direct mode is described as follows:

This mode reproduces the sound with extremely high quality. When this mode is set, all circuits and processes not required for the selected input source (FL tube, video circuit and tone control, as well as digital circuitry and other unnecessary circuits for analog audio inputs) are automatically turned off so the music signals can be reproduced with high sound quality.

In the receivers' setup I can configure direct mode to use EQ or not. So there goes that idea that DIRECT MODE should bypass all signal processing circuitry.

See, this manual is such a load of crap. It contradicts itself on several points and it's never clear what certain things do exactly. Take that description for pure direct mode. Why can't it simply say whether it bypasses room correction or not? How should I know what Denon considers "unnecessary"? What's their difference between "not required" and "unnecessary" anyways? It says it bypasses video circuitry, but further down it says:

If the HDMI input terminal is selected, video outputs are outputted in the PURE DIRECT mode.

And

The channel level and surround parameters in the PURE DIRECT mode are the same as in the DIRECT mode.

    

I want to burn that manual, ritually, in the night and dance around in circles chanting. But maybe it doesn't even want to burn, wouldn't surprise me at all .

Oke, frustration about that manual aside, I see the following processes:
- Speaker config small/large
- Room correction for distances and channel levels
- Equalizer per channel
- Crossover frequencies per channel.

I have no idea which parts the STEREO, DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes bypass. I can make an educated guess but that is simply not good enough. I hope I can bypass *everything* on the analog inputs and I can somehow figure out how to actually confirm that.

If you don't have any other sources you don't really need the receiver and should sell it immediately and get a multi-channel amp. 

Ow how I wish I had the money to replace that thing. It's been a burden since the day I bought it. I considered sending it back a day or 2 after I bought it, and I wish I did but at the time I didn't know what else to buy so now I'm stuck with it.

[mojave]

The manuals always leave out the exact information you are looking for.   

You can use REW and send the output from the receiver into the input on the soundcard and measure the frequency response with various receiver settings to see if the crossover or EQ are being used.

[Matt]

My surround speakers are different brand/set than my front speakers. Their much more sensitive than the front. When I'm using that test sound under Room Correction/Tools, should front/surround/center sound equally loud or doesn't it work that way?

You'll need a decibel meter or microphone to properly set levels between the sets of speakers.  A free decibel meter app for your phone works in a pinch.  Or the microphone REW stuff mojave is describing if you want to get fancy.

How come that test sound sounds different in tone coming from the front left or front right speaker?

It really shouldn't sound different from matched speakers (like between L and R).  Check for positioning / aiming / obstructions.  If it's still really different, one of the speakers may have a problem.

[InflatableMouse]

Cheers guys, I'll have a go at it once my stuff gets here.

[InflatableMouse]

I'm trying to find more info about how to calibrate (or at least, set proper volume levels) for your speakers when using a dB meter, I'm not very succesful finding something useful. Most talk about placement and running auto setup receivers offer.

When I use a dB meter, should the test tone measure equally loud from all speakers (including center and SW?) or is there some kind of rule to it?

If you know of some kind of reliable guide that would be great too.

Thanks.

[Matt]

You want to use the 'Level' checkboxes in Room Correction.

More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup#Room_Correction

[InflatableMouse]

The Wiki ... of course. Why do I always forget about that

Thanks Matt.

[Sparks67]

I've decided to take the plunge on the Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 addon when I found a shop that had them in stock for a decent price. I've been meaning to bypass the entire digital circuitry in my Denon AVR-4306 receiver for a while now, it sounds damp and lifeless. When I had a good CD player hooked up to it on its analog inputs, the sound was just so much richer, I am hoping to gain something similar by going analog from the HTPC.

I have a couple of questions, of course .

The receiver has that feature that it can take measurements with a mic. I've been looking at room correction settings in MC17 and 18 but I'm not quite sure about certain things. The receiver seemed to extrapolate numbers from 5 or more measurements and obviously made some compromises. I never liked how that worked and I eventually took 5 measurements from the main position . Even then it measured different distances for FL and FR and corrected with +2dB for FL. Audibly wrong and I manually corrected some of it until it sounded right.

If your Denon has Audissey, then is very accurate.   I am not sure on you model though.   I have Denon AVR-5308, but I use a camera tripod with the mic.   There is a FAQ over on AVS Forums...seems to be deleted.  Here is another link...http://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyssey%20Setup%20Guide.pdf  I just got mine close, and then just tweaked it a bit.   Also, there is an app for the denon that allow you change modes from an Ipad.  I think it is free.  http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-remote-app/id388608880?mt=8

[InflatableMouse]

Thanks Sparks, when I got the receiver I went through all those. I actually have that app too . I'll check out that link tomorrow.

Back to the Essence ST, I got it installed today with the H6 board, but no matter what I do I can't get any sound from it.

It seems to play, in Windows devices I see that little green "VU meter" bouncing. In the Asus control panel I can see movement like sound is playing, but I never hear anything?

Even when I do the speaker tests, I see the movement on the digital "VU meters" (if thats what you call those?) but no sound. Headphones, no sound.

I do hear the card clicking when I change the speaker setup or switch to headphones.

Bedtime now, but I would have slept better if I could have at least got some sound from it

[InflatableMouse]

I got it working, I had the input config on the Denon wrong. No idea why the headphones weren't working last night but that works too now.

Sound is great, massive improvement over the digital link so I'm very happy. I'm still missing some interlinks for the center and surround speakers but at least main front and sub is working properly.

It really shouldn't sound different from matched speakers (like between L and R).  Check for positioning / aiming / obstructions.  If it's still really different, one of the speakers may have a problem.

I think there's something wrong with the left speaker . I guess I had it coming, they are getting old and need a rebuild. The right speaker is louder but also sounds brighter. Later today I'll switch them around to make sure its the speaker and not the receiver or power amp.

[InflatableMouse]

I finally got all the cables and both cards installed and I was able to configure everything properly, I think. I went through the channel setup in MC's room correction and set all the distances and channel levels.

I am seriously impressed with the sound quality of this setup, I can't believe what I've been missing all those years. It put a lump in my throat, I was that impressed.

One more question Matt. Will you guys consider a per-channel equalizer? That would be awesome .

Anyways, thanks for the help everyone!

[mojave]

There already are two that will each do 16 channels. What else do you need? 

[InflatableMouse]

Per channel.

Unless I don't know how, I can't seem to set the EQ separately for surround, center and front speakers. If that's already possible, please explain.

[mojave]

Click Parametric EQ or Parametric EQ2. The Equalizer is only for 2 channels and doesn't have the bands where you would probably need them anyway.

In the Parametric EQ you click Add > Adjust a frequency. Then you enter in the frequency, bandwidth, gain, and channel(s). If you want a cut of 4 dB at 55 Hz that is 1/2 an octave wide then you enter 55, 2.87, -4, and select subwoofer.

You may understand bandwidth already, but if not then this article at Rane's website is helpful.

I use a Room Equalization Wizard (REW) to measure my room and it provides me with the exact frequency, bandwidth, and gain that I need for EQ.

To see what the Parametric EQ is doing you can go to Tools > Advanced Tools > Create Test Clips. This creates test clips and a playlist called Test Clips. You can play one of the multichannel pink noise clips with the volume almost all the way down (it can't be at 0, though). Click Options in the top right of the Parametric EQ and select Process Independently of Internal Volume. While the pink noise is playing (I set it on repeat) you can then go to Analyzer and view the channels. Your EQ should show up on the appropriate channels. You can hold down the CTRL key and turn the Parametric EQ on or off while staying in the Analyzer.

[InflatableMouse]

OMG

And so a new world opens up. I always thought the parametric equalizers required a file from a 3rd party program to load into it. I had never actually clicked the add button, I asumed it would ask for a file  .

Cheers man. I'll look into it and I'll check out REW too, although that looks way too complicated for me.

Basically what I thought of doing is play a sample through the front speaker, measure the frequency response and adjust the rear speaker channels until it more or less gives the same response.

[InflatableMouse]

Oke I don't understand bandwidth and that article just fried my brain 

If I wanted to adjust front left:
63Hz: 1dB
125hz: -4dB
250Hz: 0.5dB
500Hz: -5dB
1K: 1dB
2K: -1dB
4K: -1dB
8K: -5dB
16K: -0.5dB

If I wanted to adjust front right:
63Hz: -2dB
125hz: -3dB
250Hz: 1.5dB
500Hz: -5.5dB
1K: 0dB
2K: -0.5dB
4K: -1dB
8K: -5.5dB
16K: 0dB

Isn't there some online calculator or something that can give me the Q number I need?

[mojave]

Can you open an Excel file? If so, then download this zipped file, unzip it, and open it in Excel. Click on the PeakingEQ spreadsheet. At the top left you will see the "Fill in parameters" section. Enter your parameters and the chart will then visually show you what happens when you change the Q. EQ doesn't just change one frequency. The frequency you enter is called the center frequency. The Q then tells how wide on both sides of the center frequency the gain or cut should affect.

Here are two examples both at 60 Hz and -2 dB but with different Q's.

[InflatableMouse]

I think I get all that but that still requires me to come up with Q. How do I determine Q? I see the difference and I think I understand the 2 examples you gave, it's like rolloff. The lower Q is, the more frequencies before and after it affects .. but how do I know which one I should use? Does it depend on how close the next change is? Like, when I change 60Hz and 80Hz I could use a higher Q than when for example with 60Hz and 120Hz, because the latter has more "space" between the two?

Sorry man, this is all way over my head. I guess that's what I mean when I mentioned the EQ per channel. Just a couple of sliders would have been cool for me.

[mojave]

How did you know which frequency needed EQ? A measurement that shows where EQ is needed also shows the width of the peak that needs to be pulled down unless you are using an SPL meter. An SPL meter doesn't really tell you what you need to know for proper EQ.

If you want to use the Parametric EQ the same as the sliders, then enter 4.318 as the Q. The sliders usually have a bandwidth of 1/3 octave which corresponds with a Q of 4.318.

[InflatableMouse]

I used the Denon's built in Audyssey and recorded each bands' dB gain. It's all it shows. I tried the Denon mic on the pc's Mic input and that seemed to work. But I couldn't figure out how to use REW so I figured I'd take new measurements with the Denon and use those values.

[natehansen66]

I used the Denon's built in Audyssey and recorded each bands' dB gain. It's all it shows. I tried the Denon mic on the pc's Mic input and that seemed to work. But I couldn't figure out how to use REW so I figured I'd take new measurements with the Denon and use those values.

Check out the guides on hometheatershack.com, IIRC they're pretty in-depth and will get you going. Proper measurement software is a powerful tool and is a great benefit for any system IMO. If anything it's a good learning tool. Take some measurements in REW then play with the EQ section, changing freqs and adjusting Q values. Do it enough and you'll know the Q value of a freq response aberration with a quick look 

[InflatableMouse]

I did. I spent another entire afternoon only to get it to calibrate and set levels. I couldn't get my mic's response high enough, it was stuck at -40dB max with all input levels maxed and mic boost enabled. I thought I was smart and tried to use a portable headphone amp (originally for mp3 players) but that didn't work at all.

I guess some things are not meant for mere mortals to meddle with. I think every time I try to understand more brain cells die and I get dumber each time 

At this point I am testing PEQ with a Q value of 4.32 and I'm testing purely based on my own hearing (except for levels, ipad works fine).

[InflatableMouse]

I don't mean this to become a nuisance but I want to make sure I've done things right. I hope someone knowledgable can look over what I've done and give me some feedback I'd appreciate it.

As a starting point I took the values from the Denon's Audyssee system. All distance values were spot on except the subwoofer, for some reason it measures that at 15 ft while the real distance is 11 ft. Regardless, I'm using the 15 ft in Room Correction as I have to asume the Denon measures it correctly and there may be something that I'm unaware of? I've accepted the crossover frequencies as well but configured that in the end.

With regards to the EQ settings that Audyssee comes up with, I've discarded it because it sounds like crap and the values made no sense to me at all.

For volume level, I used the ipad dB meter app from the main listening position with volume turned up so the ipad measured 80 dB for all channels. I discoved I couldn't configure the subwoofer level the same way as the other channels. Trying to get 80 dB measured on the ipad required me to turn the sub so loud it was tearing down the house. I decided to turn the subwoofer off during all this and figure out its proper level after all the rest was done.

For surround and center EQ settings I came up with the following; I used the PEQ to move the FL channel to SR and FR to SL. I sat down right in front of the TV facing the surround speakers and adjusted the regular EQ levels to what I thought sounded right playing several songs. I compared to the front speakers by disabling PEQ. I had SW crossover disabled during this. I then disabled the regular EQ and entered all the values in the PEQ with a Q value of 4.32. For the center I basically did the same thing, sat down at the main listening position and moved FL and FR to C and adjusted the EQ again, but I focused more on voices so I took quiet jazz with strong vocals. I again disabled the regular EQ and entered all the values in the PEQ with a Q value of 4.32. PEQ details are listed further down.

After that, I checked all volume levels again and made some minor adjustments.

As I explained, I had the subwoofer turned off while setting up Room Correction and PEQ for all the other channels. To come up with the proper subwoofer level, I thought of the following procedure. I set crossover for the front speakers to 200 Hz and copy bass to the subwoofer instead of move. While playing several songs, I started increasing the subwoofer volume until I could barely hear it (mute channel in Room Correction is very helpful here). I then took it down a notch and figured this would be the exact level to match the front speakers. I then set crossover back as described below.

Finally, I rechecked all volume levels to make sure its all still set.

Room correction is set as follows:

Front Left
Distance: 10 ft
Volume Level: 0 dB
Crossover: 40 Hz (12 dB/octave)
Routing: Move bass to sub (48 dB/octave)

Front Right
Distance: 10 ft
Volume Level: +1 dB
Crossover: 40 Hz (12 dB/octave)
Routing: Move bass to sub (48 dB/octave)

Center
Distance: 10 ft
Volume Level: -1 dB
Crossover: 40 Hz (12 dB/octave)
Routing: Move bass to sub (48 dB/octave)

Sub woofer
Distance: 15 ft
Volume Level: 0 dB

Surround Left
Distance: 3.5 ft
Volume Level: +2.8 dB
Crossover: 60 Hz (12 dB/octave)
Routing: Move bass to sub (48 dB/octave)

Surround Right
Distance: 4 ft
Volume Level: +1,2 dB
Crossover: 60 Hz (12 dB/octave)
Routing: Move bass to sub (48 dB/octave)

I have configured parametric equalizer as follows (bandwidth (Q) for all frequency changes is set to 4,32):
-4 dB for all channels except subwoofer to prevent clipping.

For Surround L/R
+11 dB at 60 Hz
+4 dB at 170 Hz
+2,7 dB at 310 Hz
+4,6 dB at 6K Hz
+8,5 dB at 12K Hz
+12 dB at 14K Hz

For Center
+12 dB at 60 Hz
+10 dB at 170 Hz
+4 dB at 310 Hz
+4 dB at 4K Hz
+6,5 dB at 6K Hz
+8,5 dB at 12K Hz
+9,5 dB at 14K Hz

Volume leveling mode is set to Track Based, Adjustment is automatic based on current playlist. No clip protection (flat line overflows).

Lastly, output format is set to 5.1, Mixing JRSS v2.0 with stereo sources mix to 2.1 ticked. Subwoofer is set to silent (use Room Correction). Bitdepth is set to 24-bit.

Thanks guys!

[natehansen66]

I did. I spent another entire afternoon only to get it to calibrate and set levels. I couldn't get my mic's response high enough, it was stuck at -40dB max with all input levels maxed and mic boost enabled. I thought I was smart and tried to use a portable headphone amp (originally for mp3 players) but that didn't work at all.

I'm not sure how a receiver with a mic works, but a typical mic used for measurements needs to be used with a pre-amp to boost the signal to usable levels. I'd guess the receiver has a mic pre built in, so when you plug into your soundcard rather than your receiver you can't get the level high enough.

[Sparks67]

I'm not sure how a receiver with a mic works, but a typical mic used for measurements needs to be used with a pre-amp to boost the signal to usable levels. I'd guess the receiver has a mic pre built in, so when you plug into your soundcard rather than your receiver you can't get the level high enough.

The Denon with Audyssey is rather cool as compared to the past without a mic.   The mic is not built in, but has a plug for the Mic.  You take measurements at different listening spots.  Avsforum has complete thread on this, and the new version of Audyssey. 

Anyway, I think

With regards to the EQ settings that Audyssee comes up with, I've discarded it because it sounds like crap and the values made no sense to me at all.

  has figured out what I meant by TWEAK.  Do it by your ear. 

If you want it better, then there is the Audyssey Pro.  http://www.audyssey.com/installers

[mojave]

All distance values were spot on except the subwoofer, for some reason it measures that at 15 ft while the real distance is 11 ft. Regardless, I'm using the 15 ft in Room Correction as I have to asume the Denon measures it correctly and there may be something that I'm unaware of?

A sealed subwoofer usually needs to be a few feet longer than the actual measured distance. A ported sub is around 5 ft longer than measured. A horn sub can be as much as 17 ft longer due to the length of the horn.

[InflatableMouse]

Thanks Mojave.

I asume I did reasonably well then, no blasphemous screwups?