Topic: Upgraded from win7 to win8, now blu-ray mkv stutters (Read 6897 times)

Zulan · « **on:** October 01, 2012, 07:57:10 am »

Hello!

I have an Intel i3 HTPC using the built in graphic card, this was running fine with Madvr and LAV on windows 7. But when I upgraded to win8 I started to see the video stutter now and then. This was confirmed as dropped frames in the ctrl-j screen.

I googled this all over and found jriver, bought it hoping it would fix my problems but it's actually exactly the same, a bit better using HQ then standard wich is weird. I have checked cpu and gpu load during video playback and gpu maxes out in window mode but is about 50% using exclusive mode. Given that it worked in win7 and that it doesnt seem to be overloaded I feel the problem might be somewhere else even though they say i5 or better for Red October HQ.

Any idea where the problem might be or some setting I could try? Also, if you still think it's the hardware, what should I get in order to get absolutely perfect blu-ray mkv playback?

Neco · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2012, 09:46:57 am »

I hate to sound facetious, but maybe the problem is.... Windows 8

It's not even officially released yet so there are bound to be issues that still need sorting out

Jong · « **Reply #2 on:** October 01, 2012, 12:09:11 pm »

Check your refresh rate and try enabling Videoclock: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock

Zulan · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2012, 02:24:34 am »

Hello, and thanks for your answers! Yes, it certanly might be windows 8 but I guess it's time to fix the problems related to video playback since it will be released very soon instead of going back to windows 7.

I have tried 23 and 24hz and it doesnt change anything. Videoclock is enabled and I can see it's doing its thing when i ctrl-j. So it does work but it doesnt help the stutters.

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2012, 03:29:34 am »

Does it stutter straight away or after a period of time?

Jong · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2012, 03:37:10 am »

Bring up ctrl-J and watch your buffers. One or more of them must be running too low or suddenly emptying. Post back here with a description of what you are seeing.

Zulan · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2012, 02:26:53 am »

Hello! Sorry for the late reply, been real busy lately.

Thanks for taking your time with this.

I beleave it starts to stutter right away, but it can be 20-60 seconds between each stutter.

I am not sure exactly what is the buffers in the crtl-j menu, but I guessed it to be the queues. And they do change right before the stutters. When it's normal it says:

decoder queue 11-12/12
Upload queue 7-8/8
Render queue7-8/8
Present queue 3-4/4

But when the stutters occur it looks like:

decoder queue 7-13/12
Upload queue 1-8/8
Render queue 1-8/8
Present queue 0-4/4

I am not sure what this tells me though?

Jong · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2012, 03:02:35 am »

Sorry, yes, I meant queues

It still looks like your frame rate and refresh rate are not compatible. 23.976fps material played back @24Hz leads to one repeated frame every 42 secs (in the range you are talking about). Are you sure Videoclock is enabled? Can you take a screenshot with Madvr stats showing and post? Or at least post the Vsync interval, movie frame interval and the line that says 1 frame drop/repeat every y secs/hours/days

Zulan · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2012, 04:20:59 am »

Ah, this sounds like we are on to something.

I checked and I had the computer set to @24Hz so I changed to to 23 and this time I restarted the computer as well. I've now been playing a video for 7 minutes with less dropps then before. Just like before when it does stutter the queues move.

I have doublechecked that videoclock is enabled.

Is ctrl-j madvr stats or is that shown somewhere else?

Jong · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2012, 05:11:31 am »

Those are the stats. but is that shot before or after you changed the refresh rate. because that still shows you using 24Hz (23.99988Hz). Can you see it says 1 frame repeat every 41.67 seconds? Still I'd expect Videoclock to fix this; It really doesn't seem to be working.

If that is the OLD screenshot and you ARE now using 23Hz, post the same screen again at that refresh rate. if Videoclock wasnt working before it probably still isnt!

Zulan · « **Reply #10 on:** October 06, 2012, 05:21:36 am »

That is shot after I changed the refresh rate. Now this is where it becomes strange. If i check the refresh rate using my projector it sais 23.99, if I change back to 24 it also sais 23.99. If I change to 50, it sais 49.55 so it does work to change the refreshrate, just not between 23 and 24. Crap:-(

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2012, 05:29:07 am »

You need to set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 23.976 fps.

Where did you set the refresh rate? You need to set it in Media Center, Tools/Options/Video/Display Settings. Enable "Automatic Display Settings changing", and set FILM 23.976fps to 23hz.

No reboot is required, you just need to stop playback (not pause), and start it again.

Jong · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2012, 05:35:47 am »

But none of this explains why Videoclock is not working. How did you check it was enabled? Even if you get "23Hz" working it is likely it will still not quite 23.976 (see that "24Hz" is not quite 24Hz) and you will see occasional drops unless you get Videoclock doing its job.

Zulan · « **Reply #13 on:** October 06, 2012, 10:57:42 am »

Hello Guys!

I set the refreshrate in windows display properties, the wrong place apperantly. I have now changed that just like you said InfratableMouse. The strange thing is that I have 2 FILM settings. I've set them to:

FILM: 23.976 fps 1920x1080x32x23

Above this is where I have the setting VideoClock (Smooths video by adjusting audio) and there is a green checkbox in the box next to it.

I am now running a movie and my projector still says its refresh rate is 23.99Hz I get a few droppes now and then, less then before I think. I also still have the 1 frame repeat every 41.6 seconds so I guess I'm not really running in 23Hz but still it has improved strangely enough.

Neco · « **Reply #14 on:** October 06, 2012, 11:18:20 am »

edit:

Video clock works for me (it seems) but I am not attempting to change my refresh rate. I hate left it on the default 60Hz I always use. When I played 24FPS content my repeated frame count goes up into number of days per 1 frame repeated.

Try using Videoclock with your default refresh rate. No ideas how projectors work, so just guessing.

Jong · « **Reply #15 on:** October 06, 2012, 11:47:48 am »

Quote from: Zulan on October 06, 2012, 10:57:42 am

Hello Guys!

I set the refreshrate in windows display properties, the wrong place apperantly. I have now changed that just like you said InfratableMouse. The strange thing is that I have 2 FILM settings. I've set them to:

FILM: 23.976 fps 1920x1080x32x23

Above this is where I have the setting VideoClock (Smooths video by adjusting audio) and there is a green checkbox in the box next to it.

I am now running a movie and my projector still says its refresh rate is 23.99Hz I get a few droppes now and then, less then before I think. I also still have the 1 frame repeat every 41.6 seconds so I guess I'm not really running in 23Hz but still it has improved strangely enough.

It sounds like your video driver does not, really, support 23.976. Is it up to date? Maybe it will in a future version. Try searching for solutions to that.

I still don't get why Videoclock is not working. Go to 'Options/Video' and check Videoclock is ticked.

In much video it can be hard to spot a brief bit of judder, even every 42 secs. It really depends on what is happening on screen. Slow panning of the camera and rolling movie credits are the best. Make sure you are watching the same piece of video, ideally in one of the above two categories, when testing.

Jong · « **Reply #16 on:** October 06, 2012, 12:04:34 pm »

I don't know if this issue has anything to do with it or if the early Windows 8 drivers have regressed: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5773/intels-ivy-bridge-an-htpc-perspective/5

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #17 on:** October 06, 2012, 12:34:02 pm »

You are running in full screen exclusive mode.

Go into MadVR settings and under rendering/general settings, switch back to full screen windowed mode, see if that helps.

Jong · « **Reply #18 on:** October 06, 2012, 01:18:05 pm »

I use full screen mode. That shouldn't matter (should be better in fact).

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #19 on:** October 06, 2012, 02:57:52 pm »

In theory, maybe

.

Different hardware, drivers ... you never know

.

Jong · « **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2012, 03:34:29 pm »

Yep, worth a try!

Zulan · « **Reply #21 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:04:05 am »

I did switched to windowed mode and the stutters increased alot.

It sounds to me it is a driver issue just like Jong sais and what they are saying on anandtech. I have tried finding newer drivers for my Intel i3 on windows 8 x64 but it doesnt seem to exist. Maybe I should just get a new low profile gpu and use for this HTPC. Any recommendations on what to get?

Jong · « **Reply #22 on:** October 08, 2012, 08:49:26 am »

Win8 drivers are (obviously!) rather immature. So it may be fixed pretty swiftly. On the other hand unless you have an HD4000-based i3 (and arguably even then) using MadVR HQ is very tight. Madshi is dedicated to achieving the highest possible quality. His latest version adds an improved and yet more demanding method of upscaling. Even the HD4000 may not always be able to cope. I have the 3570K with HD4000 integrated GPU and I am still using a (fanless) AMD7750 for guaranteed results!

Can't recommend a low-profile card; I don't use them. Bu the AMD 7xxx series is good.

Zulan · « **Reply #23 on:** October 09, 2012, 04:47:46 am »

I have orderded a amd 7750 so we'll see if things improve. Thanks for your help this far, I'll be back once I get the card.

fitbrit · « **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2012, 07:40:02 pm »

This is a bug in the Intel hardware itself Clarkdale AND SandyBridge. Some of the drivers were 'fixed' (not for Clarkdale), but without the fix the 23Hz option still runs at 24Hz, and will drive you crazy if you notice the stutter/repeated frames. I ended up buy some nVidia video cards for my i3 530 HTPCs.

Also, just to be sure there isn't a simple solution, videoclock doesn't work if you are bitstreaming audio, I believe.

Jong · « **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:01:05 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on October 09, 2012, 07:40:02 pm

videoclock doesn't work if you are bitstreaming audio, I believe.

Good point. Should have thought of that.

Zulan · « **Reply #26 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:02:11 am »

Right, and I am bitstreaming the audio, if that means that I forward the decoding of the sound through s/pdif to my receiver.

Jong · « **Reply #27 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:14:44 am »

Ah. Really sorry I missed that! Can you not send audio over HDMI? HDMI supports full multichannel uncompressed audio. Much better than s/pdif.

Zulan · « **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:22:19 am »

You don't need to be sorry about anything, I am very grateful for your help!

I have an older kick-ass receiver :-) It's an older Denon topmodel and it doesnt have HDMI. I have tried replacing it, but since it was a 5000€ receiver when it was new it's hard to find something that sounds as good without shelling out another 5000€.

I'm hoping for the new AMD gpu to save the day, it is arriving today :-)

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:43:44 am »

As Jong mentioned, s/pdif is limited so do realize you probably won't be able to do any of the new HD audio formats found on blurays or HD multichannel PCM.

Zulan · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:45:37 am »

Yes, I'm painfully aware that

Jong · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2012, 06:47:03 am »

It's a tough trade off, I''l give you that.

V.High quality DAC and amplification OUT vs. lossless HD audio IN!

Zulan · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:39:30 pm »

I just installed the AMD 7750, set it to 23Hz and I could right there see the difference since 23Hz worked this time. Started a movie and it was smooth as silk. Not a single hickup for the 15 minutes I checked. Just perfekt! Problem solved finally! Thanks everyone!

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #33 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:46:15 pm »

Jong · « **Reply #34 on:** October 10, 2012, 01:50:11 pm »

That's great to hear

fitbrit · « **Reply #35 on:** October 10, 2012, 05:35:32 pm »

Quote from: Zulan on October 10, 2012, 03:22:19 am

You don't need to be sorry about anything, I am very grateful for your help!

I have an older kick-ass receiver :-) It's an older Denon topmodel and it doesnt have HDMI. I have tried replacing it, but since it was a 5000€ receiver when it was new it's hard to find something that sounds as good without shelling out another 5000€.

I'm hoping for the new AMD gpu to save the day, it is arriving today :-)

You might be able to decode HD formats to and DAC them to multiple analog-outs using a ~100€ sound card on your HTPC. Assuming that your old, 5000€ Denon has multi-channel input. I'm sure it does, as this was common back in the day in mid and high end receivers. Or spend the money to get a low end HDMI receiver that has pre-outs, and use your Denon as purely a power-amp.
Finally, your onboard sound card if a Realtek ALC888 chipset or above (I believe) might be able to do this right now. Decode HD audio to multi-channel out direct from the PC to multi-channel analog in on your Denon. This would be the cheapest solution and would allow you to get HD audio and keep your Denon.

Zulan · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:24:20 am »

I was at hifi store in my local area and asked them and they said it wasnt possible on my receiver. We where talking about me getting a new pre-amp that supports the new formats. I have to say I'm not in a position to argue with that but of course it's in their interest to sell me more stuff. The receiver in question is the Denon 5800 (us name) avc-a1se (european name).

Specs can be found here: http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?PCatId=AVSolutions(DenonNA)&CatId=AVReceivers(DenonNA)&Pid=AVR5800(DenonNA)

Maybe you guys have an idea?

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:28:51 am »

You have another option.

Have a look here.

Your Denon has multichannel analog inputs. With something similar to the Xonar, you can have your HTPC decode and send analog out to your Denon. Saves you a pre-amp.

That Xonar is seriously a very good card with superb sound quality.

Zulan · « **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2012, 03:13:15 am »

That sounds really interesting and something I would gladely try. First problem though, I have a low profile chassi and the Xonar XT is regular size. Maybe a usb soundcard would do but now that I've read about the xonar I dont want anything less then that :-)

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2012, 06:19:02 am »

Xonar has a new range including USB devices.

Have a look here.

Ignore me, the USB devices don't have 8 channel analog out.

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #40 on:** October 11, 2012, 06:44:37 am »

Asus has these too.

That list includes low profile cards, some of which have 7.1 analog output channels like the Xonar DSX.

I have no idea how they compare to the Essence series though, you gonna have to do your own research.

Zulan · « **Reply #41 on:** October 11, 2012, 06:49:34 am »

It looks to me the Xonar Essence One Plus Edition is the top model but I cant see in the specs it will be able to handle DTS-HD or TrueHD. It seems to be more of a headphone amplifier and soundcard.

Jong · « **Reply #42 on:** October 11, 2012, 07:02:23 am »

You don't need, in fact you don't want, the soundcard to 'handle' DTS-HD/TrueHD.

If you go the analogue route (or indeed multichannel LPCM over HDMI), JRiver decodes the audio and the sound card merely transports it.

To decode lossless DTS-HD, though, you need a copy of Arcsoft's DTS decoder from Total Media Theater, so that cost has to also be built into your calculations!

(if you are worried, the whole point of the lossless HD audio codecs is they ARE lossless - like unpacking a zip file. The process is exact. It makes no difference if an amp does it or your PC. Of course, in the case of an analogue conversion (not HDMI) you are dependent on the quality of your sound card's DAC.)

fitbrit · « **Reply #43 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:43:09 pm »

Quote from: Zulan on October 11, 2012, 02:24:20 am

I was at hifi store in my local area and asked them and they said it wasnt possible on my receiver. We where talking about me getting a new pre-amp that supports the new formats. I have to say I'm not in a position to argue with that but of course it's in their interest to sell me more stuff. The receiver in question is the Denon 5800 (us name) avc-a1se (european name).

Specs can be found here: http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?PCatId=AVSolutions(DenonNA)&CatId=AVReceivers(DenonNA)&Pid=AVR5800(DenonNA)

Maybe you guys have an idea?

Thanks for the link. They outright lied to you. Your receiver has not just one set of inputs, but two! So you can get an HDMI pre-amp that decodes the formats, or a decent soundcard that will do it, e.g. most by Auzentec, Asus etc.

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #44 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:49:36 pm »

Aren't the AVC-A1 models modular and upgradable?

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Author Topic: Upgraded from win7 to win8, now blu-ray mkv stutters (Read 6897 times)