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[NickF]

I had a play with DLNA on MC17 some months ago, trying to get a solution to send recorded TV and Movies to my Sony Bravia TV.  I am in PAL land and really struggled to get smooth play of video.  The level of stutter made it unusable so I gave up.

I thought I would try again with MC18.  There have clearly been some significant improvements.  Video picture quality is much improved and 25fps video is much smoother on pans and moving objects.  There is still some jitter on movement which I would like to resolve but this is a huge step forwards.  I think I am right in saying that ffmpeg has now been replaced by JRiver's own solution so presumably they now have more control over tuning.  Thanks to Bob and the team!

Now comes the "but".  I have many 30fps videos and an increasing number of 24fps Blu-Ray rips and playing these shows very significant stutter.  I have played with the settings available but cannot find a solution.  I assume it is a frame rate issue but I don't know how DLNA handles different frame rates.  Is anyone else seeing this in PAL land?  Should that make any difference?  Has anyone found a solution?

Nick.

[bob]

I had a play with DLNA on MC17 some months ago, trying to get a solution to send recorded TV and Movies to my Sony Bravia TV.  I am in PAL land and really struggled to get smooth play of video.  The level of stutter made it unusable so I gave up.

I thought I would try again with MC18.  There have clearly been some significant improvements.  Video picture quality is much improved and 25fps video is much smoother on pans and moving objects.  There is still some jitter on movement which I would like to resolve but this is a huge step forwards.  I think I am right in saying that ffmpeg has now been replaced by JRiver's own solution so presumably they now have more control over tuning.  Thanks to Bob and the team!

Now comes the "but".  I have many 30fps videos and an increasing number of 24fps Blu-Ray rips and playing these shows very significant stutter.  I have played with the settings available but cannot find a solution.  I assume it is a frame rate issue but I don't know how DLNA handles different frame rates.  Is anyone else seeing this in PAL land?  Should that make any difference?  Has anyone found a solution?

Nick.

If the source material isn't being transcoded, it really depends on the rendering device. There is a lot of variability in this area. Some devices will only play a couple of different frame rates and others play nearly anything (but not always nicely). The trick for non-transcoded material is to get the DLNA flags set to something the device likes.

For transcoded material, in theory everything should play as long as the MC transcoding profile is set properly (for example MPEG2 DVD vs MPEG2 PAL DVD). When transcoding the frame rate is converted to either PAL or NTSC for MPEG2. For MP4TS, everything is 30 fps unless you choose the lowest profile in which case it's 15 fps.

[NickF]

If the source material isn't being transcoded, it really depends on the rendering device. There is a lot of variability in this area. Some devices will only play a couple of different frame rates and others play nearly anything (but not always nicely). The trick for non-transcoded material is to get the DLNA flags set to something the device likes.

For transcoded material, in theory everything should play as long as the MC transcoding profile is set properly (for example MPEG2 DVD vs MPEG2 PAL DVD). When transcoding the frame rate is converted to either PAL or NTSC for MPEG2. For MP4TS, everything is 30 fps unless you choose the lowest profile in which case it's 15 fps.

Thanks for the reply, Bob.  I'm not sure I am understanding this correctly.  If I choose "always convert", everything will be converted to MPEG2.  If I have a 30 fps video, are you saying that it will be converted to 25 fps?  If so, how is this done?  If it is slowed down, it would be very apparent, both in video speed and audio pitch.  Or are frames dropped, in which case is this why it looks stuttery?  Either way doesn't sound good.

I have tried the NTSC settings which work with the Sony but this has no effect on the stuttering.  I'm not sure what to try next.

Nick.

[bob]

Thanks for the reply, Bob.  I'm not sure I am understanding this correctly.  If I choose "always convert", everything will be converted to MPEG2.  If I have a 30 fps video, are you saying that it will be converted to 25 fps?  If so, how is this done?  If it is slowed down, it would be very apparent, both in video speed and audio pitch.  Or are frames dropped, in which case is this why it looks stuttery?  Either way doesn't sound good.

I have tried the NTSC settings which work with the Sony but this has no effect on the stuttering.  I'm not sure what to try next.

Nick.

Hi Nick,
"Always convert" does everything. This includes frame rate conversions. It's not "slowed down" so I would assume that means it's strategically dropping frames while transcoding (or adding in the case of film frame rate). I don't think that should make it stutter, usually that's a result of the renderer getting a frame rate it doesn't like or not enough CPU for realtime conversion or not enough network bandwidth.

With our Bravia 46NX810 I get totally smooth playback, whether transcoding or not (on material that doesn't need it). Which conversion profile are you using? MPEG2 PAL DVD?

You could try setting "never convert" and see what frame rates (and formats) the TV handles without trouble. Maybe that will give us a hint as to what is going on...


What model do you have?

[NickF]

The TV is a KDL-32EX713.

I have been using MPEG2 PAL DVD generally although I have tried others.

With "never convert",
ifo's with MPEG2 video play OK at 25 fps and 30 fps, both smooth play.
mkv's with AVC1 or WVC1 video won't play
jtv's with MPEG2 or H264 video won't play

Most of the files I have been playing with are mkv so, with "convert unsupported formats", these will have been converted.  Why, on conversion, are you changing frame rate?  The TV supports 25, 30 and 24 FPS.  Can we have an option to not change frame rate?

Nick.

[bob]

The TV is a KDL-32EX713.

I have been using MPEG2 PAL DVD generally although I have tried others.

With "never convert",
ifo's with MPEG2 video play OK at 25 fps and 30 fps, both smooth play.
mkv's with AVC1 or WVC1 video won't play
jtv's with MPEG2 or H264 video won't play

Most of the files I have been playing with are mkv so, with "convert unsupported formats", these will have been converted.  Why, on conversion, are you changing frame rate?  The TV supports 25, 30 and 24 FPS.  Can we have an option to not change frame rate?

Nick.

Thanks for the information.
The reason for the frame rate change is that many devices can't handle all frame rates and we're trying to keep the complexity down. I don't see the problems you are seeing with stuttering on our Bravia. I suspect though that a "same as source" framerate option would likely be good here.

Just FYI,
No devices that I know of will play tv files.
Very few devices will play mkv's.
 
Edit: We just had a long discussion about this. Either we or the panel has to do a conversion one way or another unless the frame rate matches it's native framerate. That said, the panel hardware may do a better job in some cases. I think we'll add a smart frame rate conversion that will only convert stuff outside of the NTSC Film to NTSC range and hope the renderer can handle stuff within that range.

[NickF]

Thanks for the information.
The reason for the frame rate change is that many devices can't handle all frame rates and we're trying to keep the complexity down. I don't see the problems you are seeing with stuttering on our Bravia. I suspect though that a "same as source" framerate option would likely be good here.

Just FYI,
No devices that I know of will play tv files.
Very few devices will play mkv's.
 
Edit: We just had a long discussion about this. Either we or the panel has to do a conversion one way or another unless the frame rate matches it's native framerate. That said, the panel hardware may do a better job in some cases. I think we'll add a smart frame rate conversion that will only convert stuff outside of the NTSC Film to NTSC range and hope the renderer can handle stuff within that range.

Many thanks, Bob.

I have to admit, I prefer the idea of a "same as source" option but I appreciate the aim of avoiding complexity.  The smart option should be fine.  Just to make sure I understand, the range you are suggesting is 24 to 60?  Not all TVs will handle 24, I think, although that may pre-date DLNA so it should be OK.

I am intrigued why I see this problem and you don't on your Bravia.

Looking forward to the change!

Nick.

[bob]

Many thanks, Bob.

I have to admit, I prefer the idea of a "same as source" option but I appreciate the aim of avoiding complexity.  The smart option should be fine.  Just to make sure I understand, the range you are suggesting is 24 to 60?  Not all TVs will handle 24, I think, although that may pre-date DLNA so it should be OK.

That's the range we were considering. Do you know what the native frame rate of your panel is?

I am intrigued why I see this problem and you don't on your Bravia.

I'd guess there is a firmware difference or perhaps I'm not as sensitive to it. When you say stuttering, is the audio breaking up and does it look jumpy or more like softly jittery?

[NickF]

That's the range we were considering. Do you know what the native frame rate of your panel is?

It's 25 Hz (UK).

I'd guess there is a firmware difference or perhaps I'm not as sensitive to it. When you say stuttering, is the audio breaking up and does it look jumpy or more like softly jittery?

You wouldn't miss this.  There is a significant jump in video about once a second on both 24 fps and (even worse) 30 fps.  The audio is fine.  I'll check that the TV is up to date.

Let me know if you want me to test anything.

Nick.

[HTPC4ME]

Nick have you figured out your jitter problem?
we bought a new tv and receiver, and all media is coming from jriver on htpc. the jitter is really bad. people walking, fast movements. and the picture stutters.
Any ideas?

[NickF]

Nick have you figured out your jitter problem?
we bought a new tv and receiver, and all media is coming from jriver on htpc. the jitter is really bad. people walking, fast movements. and the picture stutters.
Any ideas?

Bob has introduced some new options in the DLNA Video Encoder options which have autofps.  These have not been entirely successful for me.  They seem to work well for 30 fps and 24 fps but not for 25 fps which is a bit frustrating as, being in the UK, much of my video library is 25 fps.  I don't know if he has made any recent changes.  I haven't checked for a couple of weeks.  It's worth giving them a try.  Let us know how you get on.

Nick.

[bob]

Could you guys try the mpeg2 dvd autofps option on some PAL material and see if it works?
Also, try the same conversion in the library with "convert format" and see if the resulting file has the right frame rate and plays in MC properly. Thanks.

[HTPC4ME]

this might be my issue! fps
It's bad! ive contemplated taking time to record the tv's jitter with hd cam, and upload it. but been to busy.

just checked all the movies that have been jittery since i bought tv/receiver. and all of them are 25 or 23fps

Bob im new to the video stuff in jriver... all my files are on server, and all clients connect to servers library. would i do these changes you mention on the server? or the clients? where do i adjust these settings in options?

thanks

[NickF]

Bob im new to the video stuff in jriver... all my files are on server, and all clients connect to servers library. would i do these changes you mention on the server? or the clients? where do i adjust these settings in options?

thanks

You make these changes on the server.  Go to Tools > Options > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA Servers > Video.  Set Conversion to Always Convert and set Encoder to MPEG2/DVD autofps stream.

Nick.

[HTPC4ME]

thanks nick, no change for me. after making options changes, i then reloaded server library on client.
does server need to be rebooted for change to take effect?

[HTPC4ME]

also whats up with jriver lately? I'm not getting email subscription email alerts.

[NickF]

thanks nick, no change for me. after making options changes, i then reloaded server library on client.
does server need to be rebooted for change to take effect?

Yes, you need to restart the server.

Nick.

[NickF]

also whats up with jriver lately? I'm not getting email subscription email alerts.

It's working for me!  Have you turned it off accidentally?  Have they been incorrectly marked a junk by your email client?

Nick.

[bob]

also whats up with jriver lately? I'm not getting email subscription email alerts.

I'll check on this..

[HTPC4ME]

this one came through.
thank you

still working on my stutter/jitter.