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Author Topic: RE: JBOD - glynor said...  (Read 7087 times)

marko

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RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« on: December 04, 2012, 01:39:45 am »

In this oh so informative post...

Quote
1. USB can present multiple drives to the OS via one cable, with an appropriate controller.  Performance, of course, suffers, especially when you are reading/writing to multiple drives simultaneously.  Essentially, the disk controller presents the disks to the OS as a JBOD array.  When only one drive is "talking" at a time, then it gets close-to the full bandwidth of the bus to itself (though no single spinning drive is going to fill a USB 3 bus).  However, when multiple drives are "talking" at once, not only is available bus bandwidth divided, but the controller has to do a lot more work at once (and generally not in a pre-planned and optimized way).  Count on lower performance for a JBOD array than you would get for a single disk on the same bus in most circumstances, and the problem generally gets worse the more drives you add to the array.

I went with JBOD, as the drives are not all same size, and used Drive Bender to present them as a single drive, and all has been good, until this weekend...

I was away from home for a few days, driving down the motorway using Gizmo to bring tunes to my car. After a few hours, things started playing up. Tracks would hang midway through, skipping to the next track is the only way to kick start things. I then noticed that tracks were beginning to skip, like a badly scratched CD used to back in the olden days, and finally, the whole thing gave up the ghost and while I was able to load the library, no file would play.

Turns out my wife had also been using the htpc for music playback at the same time. When I got home, Windows was in terrible state of confusion over its drives. The media drive was showing but without a capacity bar and completely inaccessible, and all the other drives were listed correctly, but were also completely inaccessible. I figured either Drive Bender or the Addonics box had crashed. It took two very lengthy reboots of both boxes to sort the mess out.

Is it likely that this dual access of JBOD is what brought the house of cards down?
I wonder if we hit that one-in-40,000 chance that we both tried to play the same file at the same time. Gizmo would be fed through MC's library server, but the htpc is set 'use local file if available' which it would have been, but presumably locked by the server trying to stream to Gizmo... What would happen in that scenario? I would expect the htpc to fail on that file, and so move on to the next and carry on regardless.

Maybe it was just bad luck and coincidence that it should crash like that just as I leave for a few days!!

I'm thinking that if it is highly likely that this was caused by running in JBOD, I would consider getting like sized drives and switching to RAID5 instead...

-marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 01:59:14 am »

It is always the way when you are away from home.  Anyway, don't use JBOD, Raid etc just keep them all as individual drive then use DB to present them as one vol.  I've had no issue with this approach.
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marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 02:11:08 am »

Morning Nathan,
They are four drives in an external box, presented to Windows as four individual drives via a single USB3 cable. From there, Drive Bender takes over...

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 02:36:53 am »

Mmmm something is odd then (I don't have any experience with USB3 Port Multipliers to Sata drives but was thinking of this exact config).  Do you run anything like Hard Disk Sentinel (http://www.hdsentinel.com/) to see if the drives themselves are OK?  I've currently got 6 x 4TB in one DB pool and I back it up to another with 4x 4TB and 4 x 2TB DB Pool and all is fine but monitor all the HDD in HDS.  The only time I've seen stuff like this is with either a HDD going down or a Power Supply (more likely) starting to fail (you get all sorts of odd errors).  Is DB reporting any issues with the pool or drives?
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 02:39:56 am »

Ps - I did buy a PCI to USB3 controller but found the !()&%_*% was not reliable with drives being dropped etc.  Pulled it out after 1 day and bought a new Mobo for the Main PC.
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 02:43:22 am »

PSS - there is a new Beta Version on DB - http://www.drivebender.com/drive-bender-beta-downloads-sn

I'm not sure what version you are running but there was a big driver version change a few revs ago (take almost 5mins for the pools to come back up the first time).  That said I've not seen these issues with any version to date.
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glynor

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 09:39:45 am »

Morning Nathan,
They are four drives in an external box, presented to Windows as four individual drives via a single USB3 cable. From there, Drive Bender takes over...

My guess (and very hard to say without seeing it in person)?

DriveBender borked up.
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glynor

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 09:41:01 am »

It is always the way when you are away from home.  Anyway, don't use JBOD, Raid etc just keep them all as individual drive then use DB to present them as one vol.  I've had no issue with this approach.

JBOD = Just A Bunch Of Disks

It usually (but not always) means just that... Individual drives presented to the OS.  Some weird vendors call their simple-spanning technique this as well, but using those is generally a terrible idea.
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 11:55:42 am »

Odd.  This could be mere coincidence, but I use Drive Bender on my Ethernet-attached Win 7 JBOD file-server (not the MC “server”), and have had no problems with it.  This weekend I updated from v1.3.6.0 DB (2012-08-10) to their latest v1.4.0.1, and everything looked good, but, while listening to Couperin Les Concerts Royaux the same evening, the playback began to repeatedly pause-buffer-play-pause-buffer-play.  After connecting monitor/keyboard/mouse to the server, it appeared that DB had lost sight of the individual drives, and looking severely hosed, but a reboot cured everything, and I’ve had no problems since.  I’ll post back if this reoccurs.
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marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2012, 06:07:46 pm »

Thanks for the replies.

Something went horribly wrong somewhere...

I had a little more time to investigate this morning. I found an MC crash with the faulting module being in_ape.dll

I found page upon page of ntfs errors suggesting corrupt data on one of the DB disks, and almost as many disk timeout errors. chkdsk found thousands of filesystem errors on that disk, along with a load of free space marked as used.

I've checked the SMART data for all disks and there are no failures. I'm pretty sure the disk with issues is connected to one of two purple SATA ports on my motherboard, which I think are slightly different to the orange ones, and are part of the "Marvell 91xx SATA 6G Controller" thing that I also see a few entries for in the event logs. Hopefully, my board is not on its way out. Is there any way to stress test that controller?

I was on DB v1.3.6 and have now moved up to 1.4.0

-marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 11:18:04 pm »

Sounds similar to the issue I had when I moved my HDDs from the std Intel ICHR controller to the Rocketraid Controller.  All of a sudden, Windows decided to run check disk and "fix" the HDD - all I ended up was a scrambled file allocation and had to restore the lot on the impacted disks.

All very ugly though provide the point about having a backup!
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 11:20:15 pm »

JBOD = Just A Bunch Of Disks

It usually (but not always) means just that... Individual drives presented to the OS.  Some weird vendors call their simple-spanning technique this as well, but using those is generally a terrible idea.

Ahh - My only JBOD experience was the hack you could do in XP that enabled RAID modes.  One of which was "JBOD" that presented all drives as a single vol.  It was terrible performance, and you could not grow, shrink or change modify the JBOD once setup......
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marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 05:38:29 am »

Oh how I hate troubleshooting hardware!

That's the old 200 and 500 Gb drives had all their data copied elsewhere and mothballed.

The two large drives that were connected to the Marvell thing-a-ma-jig have now been relocated inside the addonics case. Now it's a wait and see game. If there are no ntfs or drive timeout errors in the windows event viewer over the next day or so (fingers crossed) it would point the finger at the Marvell controller. If that is the case, hopefully it is isolated and not an indication that other parts of the board are about to fail.

I'll post back any findings as they happen.

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 04:37:19 am »

I'm about to swap my old WHS HW for a new setup so I too will have a bunch of disks swapping controllers - I hope it all goes well this weekend!
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InflatableMouse

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 08:32:47 am »

I had similar issues, Marko. I updated DB to the latest version (the internal appcheck doesn't work appearently) and all has been good since.

I can't help but think that some issues with MC are due to DB as well, but it doesn't log anything at all. There's no way to troubleshoot anything its just rebooting and hoping everything comes back properly.

That was really the last issue that I can handle with drive bender. One more and I'll chuck it and go back to individual drive letters.
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marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 09:01:16 am »

Hi there InflatableMouse. Spookily, DB support finally got back to me regarding that months old ticket about the second pool not mounting nicely. I mentioned I'd just moved up to v1.4.0 and he suggested holding off with troubleshooting for a day or so as they are about to release v1.4.5, but didn't say what was in the release.

Like you, I'm >*< this close to ditching DB too. Part of getting those drives off the Marvell controller meant shunting terrabytes of data around, as well as removing a couple of drives from the DB pool. The DB service stopped responding once during that huge copy operation, rendering all drives inaccessible. I was able to restart the service (along with its dependants) and carry on without a reboot, but really, that side of DB should be bullet proof.

I've been reading some more about RAID5 too, considering that as an alternative, using 5 x 2Tb drives in the Addonics case. I should stop reading though as any more scary stories about flipped bits, bad sectors, BER??, consumer level HDDs, large capacity arrays taking days to rebuild and so on, I'll ditch the whole lot and drag our old VHS machine out of the loft... it's got SCART and everything!!

I've still not fully decided...

Hi Nathan, hope it all goes well for you this weekend.

I used to love all this stuff, these days, I just want it to work and get grumpy when it doesn't.

-marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 09:23:49 am »

I may move to something like an Areca ARC-1210ML RAID controller.

I have bad experiences with RAID though, I'm afraid a better controller might not bring the level of trust that I want.
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glynor

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 11:00:07 am »

I've been reading some more about RAID5 too, considering that as an alternative, using 5 x 2Tb drives in the Addonics case. I should stop reading though as any more scary stories about flipped bits, bad sectors, BER??, consumer level HDDs, large capacity arrays taking days to rebuild and so on, I'll ditch the whole lot and drag our old VHS machine out of the loft... it's got SCART and everything!!

I have one of those SCART players here next to me too.

RAID5 is nothing to be afraid of...  I wouldn't use the Green drives with it, but if you're looking for some nice ones that won't break the bank and will work very well, WD has you covered:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236343

I recently migrated my RAID setup to 5x2TB as well, and I used these:
http://www.amazon.com/HGST-Deskstar-3-5-Inch-Internal-0F12115/dp/B004AM6TKY

Working wonderfully.  However, those HGST drives have been discontinued now since WD bought Hitachi Storage.  The HGST 7k3000 drives were a cheap competitor to WD's own "RAID Edition" drives, which they charge way too much for, and the prices have gone up on the older HGST drives since.  The Reds get great reviews though, and you don't care about super-fast storage, so they're probably ideal (they were brand new when I bought mine, and were too expensive, so I went with the cheaper-at-the-time-and-faster HGST drives).

The main thing to consider is that RAID is not a backup.  But we covered that in the previous thread.  It makes it a bit of a pain to add capacity as you go (especially if your controller doesn't support Raid Level Migration and Online Capacity Expansion), so aim high.  Other than that, though... Not flaky at all with a remotely decent controller.

I have, essentially, an older version of this card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115082

I wouldn't say I love it.  The drivers are ugly and obnoxious, and the RAID management software looks like it was written for Windows 3.1 (not kidding).  But, it works fine and was 1/5th the price of a "good one".  I get great speeds out of it.  I got mine on sale for $99 way back (like I said, not this exact model, but an older version of the same).  For the price, I bought two and have an extra on the shelf in case mine dies.

If I replace mine, though (which I might to get RAID6 at some point), I'm probably splurging on something like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118109
or this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151100

Unless, of course, they have good Thunderbolt options by then.  I'd much rather have 1x Thunderbolt cable and be able to daisy chain, rather than having 2x fancy 8088 cables going to my RAID box.  Right now, the only good option is this, and it sure isn't worth $1300 (and that doesn't even really solve the problem as it still uses 2x8088 cables).
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glynor

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 11:05:24 am »

Oh, and by the way, if you ever do this, and go with a miniSAS card... Here's a wonderful shop that has an array of useful adapters and whatnot for RAID configs.  I bought the little centronics plate that I used in my Addonics box to give it 8088 ports there.

http://www.pc-pitstop.com/

I know you're overseas, of course, but you might be able to find part numbers and then find a local supplier.  Or, they might ship stuff overseas.  They were great.

Amazon and Monoprice both have 8088 miniSAS cables now.  Don't buy those elsewhere as they'll be 10x-50x the cost.

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 09:57:58 pm »

I'm about to swap my old WHS HW for a new setup so I too will have a bunch of disks swapping controllers - I hope it all goes well this weekend!

Stage 1 done fine : moved all the "innards" of my main PC over to the new case (and did not break anything!)
Stage 2 underway : trying to "upgrade" my WHS box to new HW.  This is proving less "fun".....
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marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2012, 12:36:22 pm »

Quote
RAID5 is nothing to be afraid of...
I guess nothing you have a detailed understanding of is scary. "Thunderbolt", "8088" and "miniSAS" mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm not scared, but feel drained about yet more learning...

So, I have:
3 x Samsung HD204UI drives (I think these are discontinued now)

1 x Western Digital WD20 EADS 00R6B0 drive. Now, other than ebay, I couldn't find a shopping link for one these. I did find a three year old thread on Synology forums though, where I found the following comment:
Quote
Then I tried 2 Western Digital WD20EADS-00R6B0 drives in RAID1.
These drives have a REAL issue with LCC and they are not working in a RAID config. Another bad score for Synology Support for NOT methioning this in the list of compatible drives.
Info on this matter can be found on the site of WD. Actually NON of the EADS (Desktop series drives) will work in a RAID config.
What's LCC when it's at home then?

1 x Western Digital WD20 EARS 00S8B1. I can't find much about this either, though it would appear that both of these WD drives are "green" drives. Does this mean they won't work?

As for the Port Multiplier, I can't spend any more cash on hardware this year. I'm using the Addonics HPM-XU that came with the case. They recommend to leave the dip switches in factory default JBOD mode and use the JMicron utility to set up and manage the RAID.

Hi Nathan,
For me, just 486 gigs left to get off the last of these 2Tb drives, then we'll see. I'm not wildly optimistic about this raid thing, but will give it a go out curiosity... unless glynor sees that it's never gonna work and stops me, saving me some hours of my life!!

-marko

glynor

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 10:29:26 am »

As for the Port Multiplier, I can't spend any more cash on hardware this year. I'm using the Addonics HPM-XU that came with the case. They recommend to leave the dip switches in factory default JBOD mode and use the JMicron utility to set up and manage the RAID.

I forgot about that.

Yes, of course, you can just use that.  And, I'd generally agree with them.  It is probably easier to just set up the RAID in software, and with a system like that, the performance will likely be identical.

The main issues you'll have to deal with, if you decide to do it, are:

1. All drives in the volume should be (roughly) the same size and performance characteristics.  I explained before, but if you add 3 1TB drives and 1 4TB drive, the extra three TB on the big drive will be wasted.  Similarly, if you have a bunch of fast 7200rpm 64MB cache drives, and one slow 5400rpm job with 16MB of cache, the whole array is going to perform according to the "weakest link".

2. Avoid the common "green" drives, and also avoid WD Black edition drives (though this is less likely to be a problem).

To expand a bit on the problems with certain drives...

Basically the deal relates to error conditions:

Consumer drives assume that there is no backup and that they are operating "alone".  To this end, if they hit an error on disk (where data is difficult to read), they keep trying over and over and over again until they either get the data, or the user decides the application (or whatever) has crashed and forces it to stop.

RAID-edition and enterprise drives have a different mode where they time-limit the error recovery "dance" that the drives themselves do.   They do this because the assumption is that you're using the drives in a RAID system that has its own parity information.  In other words, the volume can recover, so there's no need to bog down the drive that can't get a few sectors for minutes at a time.  Plus, a drive that can't read some sectors is worrying in an always-on massive volume, so you'd probably want to replace that drive.  To this end, most RAID implementations only wait around 8 seconds for requested data to come back from a drive, before they "give up" and mark the drive as bad.

These two different assumptions conflict.

The problem, in particular with the Green drives, is that these drives are optimized for idle and power usage.  They return to sleep very quickly, and spin up very slowly.  Plus, as aerial density (storage sizes) has ballooned, it has become more and more difficult to get those reads on the first "try" (it is a bit like shooting a bullet from your driveway and hitting someone standing on the surface of Mars).  The "green" drives, in particular, just aren't that concerned with responsiveness.  So, what happens is:

1. All the drives have gone to sleep.
2. Your RAID controller suddenly says "give me this data".
3. The drives start spinning up, but they take a long time, and then the extra vibration of multiple drives in close proximity all starting at once makes it take longer (or makes the first "try" at reading unreliable).
4. 8 seconds elapses
5. The RAID controller thinks the drive is bad and marks it as such, and then starts rebuilding the Array from the parity data (assuming you have a spare available) or it marks itself as "dirty" and complains.

The truth is, if the RAID controller had waited another 8-10 seconds, everything would have been fine.  But they're not optimized for that kind of high-latency operation.

Where you can get into BIG trouble with this kind of situation is if it happens twice in a row.  So, for example, steps 1-5 above happen, and then the array is "degraded" (this basically just means that one more drive failure means the whole thing is lost).  Assuming you have a hot spare (or you pull out the "bad" drive and pop in a replacement), it will automatically start rebuilding itself to correct the issue.

The problem is that rebuilding an array means essentially reading every single sector in the array (every used sector of every disk).  That provides a TON of chances for the same thing to happen again.  If it happens again while the array is "degraded", then the whole thing goes tits-up and you lose the data.

Bad news.

So, what's the solution?  Well, there are "special drives" that are tuned for multiple-disk enclosures and are set with this "time limit" on their error recovery mechanisms.  They wake from sleep quicker, and have special mojo to make sure they do staggered spinup when they are sleeping, and the whole bit.  But, most importantly, they don't keep trying forever to recover data that might be hard to read.  Instead, they try for a little bit, and then report the failure back to the RAID controller, where it can decide what to do.

The obnoxious thing is that all of these features (or almost all of them anyway) are simply software features implemented in firmware.  Physically, the drives are no different from the cheap ones.  They just have different software tuning.  Back in the day, you could buy drives (like the 1TB WD Blacks, originally) that shipped in "consumer mode", but with a simple command line tool, you could enable "RAID mode" in the firmware.

But drive manufacturers (particularly WD) discovered that they could charge more for these features, so they locked the consumer drives out of that.  The net result is that if you have a modern WD Green or Black drive, they're "locked" in consumer mode, and really aren't safe to use in a RAID.  The Black drives are much safer (I run a 5 drive RAID array with 2TB WD Black drives and I've NEVER had an issue) simply because they're faster and probably get more robust validation at the factory.  The Green drives walk the edge of slowness that could make them drop from an array at random, even when they're perfectly fine (the data would eventually be able to be read, it is just going to take a while).  Don't use the modern Green drives in a multi-disk array.

Other manufacturers didn't optimize so much, or saw the opportunity afforded by WD's expensive RAID edition drives, and they started enabling their regular consumer drives to work correctly with multi-disk arrays.  Samsung and HGST both did this in the past.  Unfortunately, both Samsung and HGST's storage groups have now been gobbled up by the "big two".  HGST drives are now WD drives, and Samsung drives are Seagates.  They've both been quietly discontinuing the old models to avoid competing with their "RAID edition" (price gouging) models.

However.... WD in particular released the new Red line of drives.  These are essentially Green drives, slightly tweaked to work better in a multi-disk volume.  Anandtech did an in-depth review, and gave them great marks all around.  They are substantially slower than the Black and RT ("high end" WD RAID) drives, but they are plenty fast for NAS and Media Storage use, and they are reliable in a NAS box or RAID Volume.  They do the TLER (time limited error recovery) and some sleep/idle/spinup optimizations just like the faster (and much more expensive) RAID-specialized drives.

If you have older, existing drives, they'll probably work fine as long as you don't use the common WD "Green" line of cheapo big drives.  So, I'd avoid using your WD20 EADS 00R6B in the array.  On the other hand, the Samsung drives (despite being their EcoGreen line), are reported to work just fine in RAID volumes (though I did see something about them having a Firmware update available which could actually be the cause of all of your trouble).

Basically, a rule of thumb is:

WD Green:  AVOID
WD Red:  Good to go
WD RT-something:  Good to go (but you have more money than sense)
WD Black:  Will probably work, but is slightly dangerous.

Samsung and HGST:  Almost certainly good to go.

Seagate:  I don't know their models well enough to comment.  They probably have a structure like the WDs.

In all cases, RAID is not a backup.
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 10:40:51 am »

Nice writeup, thanks!

You know I always discarded raid-aware sata drives as snakeoil, but this makes sense. Good to know.
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 11:04:55 am »

Thanks for that glynor, you should run classes.

This has now been relegated to perhaps the second half of 2013 for me due to financial constraints (I'm skint!)

Having gotten all data off my five 2Tb drives and getting them all set up in the addonics case, I opened the JMicron tool and configured my RAID5 array...

After accepting the warnings, all drives were unmounted from Windows and the JMicron thing went to work... almost as fast as the disks were unmounted, they reappeared again, as they were, ntfs volumes intact and available, the JMicron tool continued it's thing, hanging for several minutes around the 93% mark before proclaiming that the host controller was not detecting the changes and all should be rebooted. I did this, and there was no RAID volume.

I put this down to those WD Green drives and didn't try a second time.

On the plus side, now two days since moving the two drives off the onboard Marvell controller, and there are zero disk or ntfs errors in the system logs. For me, for now, I'm happy to accept that this was the cause of the problems that prompted this thread.

Thanks again for being there, as always, it's appreciated.

-marko

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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 04:49:54 pm »

Here is an example of HDD "badness".  I removed two of my WD20EADS that were running fine as part of my change of WHS build and was using HDS to "reinitialise" them prior to selling.  On a 2TB hdd this process normally takes around 12 hours and runs at 50MB/s on these "green" drives.  While both drive have over 1,000 days being powered on, they were being reported as 100% health and I've never noticed any issue.  Both have normal read speeds, yet one would only "reinitialise" at 5MB/s - it would almost take 10days.  I tired all sorts of combos but there is something clearly wrong with the write speed on this drive and is now on the pile of dead drives.
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Re: RE: JBOD - glynor said...
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2012, 04:53:03 pm »

...I just had a better look at the poor drive and it is a "re-certified" version so it was a swap for a previous failure under wty.  From what I've come to understand, these "re-certified" drive are ones that have had issues, been returned, successfully re-inialised by the vendor then sent out as swaps.  As I result I have no idea of the real heritage of this one!
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